Can you be truly be fully fluent in another langauge?

[Mycernius]

This question recently came up in a staff discussion and was an offtopic comment, but worthy of a general discussion for all members. As the lingustics frum has gone off to Eupedia and this wouldn't really fit into the Learning English, this is probably the best place to post this.
The question is quite simple really; Could you ever be fully fluent in another langauge? Before you jump in and say yes let's take a few things into account.
This forum has around 16 000 members, of which over a thousand visit and post on a fairly regular basis. A very large majority of these posts are wriiten in English. It is, after all, the dominant langauge on the planet and the lingua franca on the net. Out of these members around about 40 to 50% are native English speakers, but the rest use English as a second or even third langauge. The overall standard is high, especailly for those who use it as a second language, and, in some cases, embarrassingly better than some of the native speakers. Yet dispite this could you ever say that you are fully fluent with English. English itself is a odd lanauge with having so many variants of itself. Do you use British, American, Canadian, Australian, South African, Indian English? Each has its own uses for similar words and can cause enough confusion between native speakers, eg: Fag in BrEng is slang for a cigarette, but in AmEng for someone who is gay. Even spelling differs: Labour - BrEng, Labor - AmEng. And then there are words that differ, but mean the same thing; Fall(US)=Autumn(GB). I use English for example as it is my native langauge.
Now I can sit down and immerse my self in Japanese and be able to speak it well in maybe in 5 years, but would I ever really be fluent in it? Here lies the problem. I am English, Born, live and work in Engliand. My background is English and my culture is english and culture is the key word. I could, for example, go and live the rest of my life in Japan, where I have to use Japanese everyday. Some of our members do or have done (Mike Cash, Mars Man, Maciamo, Thomas) They all speak the langauge. To what degree I do not know, but seeing as they all work there and have lived there for a few years, I would assume that their level is very high. Yet each one was born and grew up in a different culture different from the one they live in now.
Langauge is not just learning the verbs, nouns and where and when to use the -te form or to put a verb, there is a culture to go with it. If I move to Japan I would not only have to learn the langauge, but learn the rules of when to use certain types of the language. the polite form, the formal and informal. This isn't just in Japanese, it happens in German, French and Spanish with the pronoun You. It can be hard enough for natives bought up in that culture, but as a non-native it is even worse. you could end up insulting a freind of host because, dispite you fluency, you are not of that culture.
English and French are related languages, yet there are words that are used in French that do not have a direct translation into English. The best example of this is the tile to Victor Hugos' Les Miserable. The title has no direct meaning in English. The best translations can come out as meaning the underclass, the unwanted poor trash etc, yet to a Frenchman he knows exactly what is meant be that word. Even words that do mean the same and have roughly the same meaning can be a harmless word in one langauge ,but can be used as an insult in the other.
Now think with all these problems with culture as well as learning the langauge can you ever be truly fluent in another langauge?

 

[Mike Cash]

I think right at the start we ought to be clear on whether we're talking about "fluent" or "proficient". People seem to use "fluent" when what they're actually discussing is proficiency.

 

[Kinsao]

I think yes, but probably only in the case of someone who is bilingual and has been brought up speaking 2 languages, moving from one to the other with ease. In that case (and also for people who are not bilingual but have learned another language to a high level of proficiency and use it a lot) it's possible to think and nightdream in either language or both. ^^ But it's true that it is hard to separate 'fluency' from 'proficiency'. I think fluency in another language is possible, but only if you lived in the country in question for quite a lot of years.

You are also talking about other cultural factors which influence use of language, and that's very hard to pin down. Some people are pretty quick on the uptake at that kind of thing, and rapidly get a 'feel' for a language, and would probably become fluent eventually. Other people seem to have a kind of 'tone deafness' to those nuances, and might become proficient but probably never fluent. But I think that if someone goes to live in a culture other than their native one, and they stay there for a lot of years, they could become fluent in the end. ^^

 

[nice gaijin]

Ignoring the written language, if fluency in Japanese (for instance) meant understanding and being able to speak in every dialect/accent as if you were born and raised in the localized region, there are very few if any native Japanese who can be considered fluent in their own language.

I can mimic a few English accents from around the world, but there is an infinite amount of slang, archaic words and forms, phrases and idioms that I will probably never know. If such high standards are required to be considered "fluent," then I am not fluent even in my own mother tongue.

When someone uses "fluent" to describe themselves, I interpret that as "proficient on a native level." If someone said to me "I'm fluent in German," I would expect them to be able to communicate on par with a native German.

 

[Elizabeth]

You are also talking about other cultural factors which influence use of language, and that's very hard to pin down. Some people are pretty quick on the uptake at that kind of thing, and rapidly get a 'feel' for a language, and would probably become fluent eventually. Other people seem to have a kind of 'tone deafness' to those nuances, and might become proficient but probably never fluent. But I think that if someone goes to live in a culture other than their native one, and they stay there for a lot of years, they could become fluent in the end. ^^

A lot of Japanese, though, also struggle with the proper use of their own forms since they aren't nearly as strict about usage as those European languages Mycernius mentioned. And then end up forgetting the nuances when the job ends and you aren't using them everyday.

Basically being able to judge what offends people, like picking up on varient English spellings, is pretty much the least of your problems in achieving fluency unless it's someone that has learned from anime or J-pop or something freaky like that.

 

[Ma Cherie]

I never thought about this, I've always believed that certian people can be fluent in another language. But I suppose it depends on alot of factors. (i.e. how long you've been studying the language, living in a country where the language is spoken, etc.) I believe people can be fluent in another language if they take alot of time trying to understand the concepts within the language they're trying to learn. Maybe understanding the way people think in another culture could really help people become fluent in another language.

 

[Mycernius]

I think right at the start we ought to be clear on whether we're talking about "fluent" or "proficient". People seem to use "fluent" when what they're actually discussing is proficiency.

Fluency. To be able to fully use the langauge and understand every aspect on its use when writing, reading or speaking it.

Ignoring the written language, if fluency in Japanese (for instance) meant understanding and being able to speak in every dialect/accent as if you were born and raised in the localized region, there are very few if any native Japanese who can be considered fluent in their own language.

I can mimic a few English accents from around the world, but there is an infinite amount of slang, archaic words and forms, phrases and idioms that I will probably never know. If such high standards are required to be considered "fluent," then I am not fluent even in my own mother tongue.

That is a very good point, can you ever be fully fluent in your own language? Especially a language as widespread as English.

 

[kohlrak]

I don't beleive fluency includes slang (for slang changes a little every day, actually, you just don't know it). From what i understand, fluency is the ability to conjure up your idea in that particular language without giving a second thought about it. In my book, if you can ramble for 10 minutes, i consider you fluent. If you can hold a well structured debate about a topic of major concern (i can't think of the word off hand) without stopping, you're fluent.

Oh, and i don't beleive "uhhs" count all hte time. only sometimes, since often during interviews fluent speakers love to say "uuuuuuuuuh."

 

[Han Chan]

When think english you have become fluent: Mostly people who are non-native english speakers need to think in their mother tongue and then translate into english. However, when you become very familiar with english, you start thinking in english. For me that is when you become fluent.

When I live and work in a english speaking environment I think and dream in english. Whenever I stay in my native Denmark for some months, I become less fluen and stop dreaming in english. Therefore I feel that I am "on and off" fluent.

I find this situation a bit confusing for me because often I am actually not concious what language I am speaking! When I am speaking danish to english speaking colleges I quickly become aware! However, when I use english when talking to my wife, she sometimes asks me to switch to danish, and only then I realize that I was actually using english.

I once had a English collegue who was very particular about the language. He complained that the rest of us corrupted "his" language. However, nowadays there are only very few who are English among those who speak english and they can not demand that we all follow their line.