- 15 Mar 2002
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Indeed.
It was eight and a half years since the last time anybody talked about it in this thread.
We're happy to have you with us, but please refrain from necroposting.
Burakumin family names
- Thread starter toykimura
- Start date
Indeed.
It was eight and a half years since the last time anybody talked about it in this thread.
We're happy to have you with us, but please refrain from necroposting.
- 12 Oct 2013
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This is one of the oral traditions that ought to be lost, forgotten, buried, put away forever. Trying to keep a mental track of which last names are associated with which castes in which locations, and passing this pointless prejudice to your children is something that deserves to die out. Your Tokyo friend wouldn't have a clue as to the origins of the Tanimoto family since she (presumably) didn't know anything more than the name. There are regional variations that make it very difficult for anybody to say with any certainty which name has which origins.
BobHobbs
Registered
- 28 Apr 2015
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Hi, guys.
According to my Japanese flatmate, Burakumin people usually have 田 or similar character as their family name.
Obviously, some areas in certain cities (Osaka is a prime example) have a rather high percentage of people with Burakumin ancestry and - here comes the causal relation - people with 田 and similar family names.
Then again, Burakumin is a "no-no topic" in Japan, so English-language information is usually more reliable.
Hope I'm of some help here
.
According to my Japanese flatmate, Burakumin people usually have 田 or similar character as their family name.
Obviously, some areas in certain cities (Osaka is a prime example) have a rather high percentage of people with Burakumin ancestry and - here comes the causal relation - people with 田 and similar family names.
Then again, Burakumin is a "no-no topic" in Japan, so English-language information is usually more reliable.
Hope I'm of some help here
.
- 12 Oct 2013
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Hello Bob, welcome to JREF - now that the politeness is over...
田 (ta, da, den) is the most common kanji found in Japan's last names. 姓名判断の謎を解く
There is nothing in the last name containing 田 that would give anyone a clue about possible burakumin connections. Your flatmate is wrong about this.
So that people don't think I'm trying to shut down the discussion...There is a lot of chatter on the internet regarding buraku issues. Various buraku rights groups in Japan publish all kinds of things concerning burakumin. If anybody wants to pick at this historical scab, there are plenty of venues available. It's not really a "no-no topic". It just doesn't come up in polite conversation. And why would it, unless you were talking about human rights or such. If it just a whisper campaign to find out if any of your co-workers who have 田 or 柳 or 川 etc... in their last names come from a burakumin background...well, then its kind of like perpetuating a prejudice that shouldn't exist in the first place. In that case, yes, it would be a no-no topic. Its as if you walked into a room where some people were closeted gays, and you started speculating loudly about which last names indicated gayness. It's an imperfect analogy, but often foreigners are inquisitive without realizing the cultural discomfort it causes.
I've been in Japan for a freaking long time. I speak a bit of Japanese. I, too, was intensely curious about this when I first came to Japan and asked what I'm sure were all sorts of ignorant questions. But other than my initial burst of curiosity, it has been a non-issue throughout my many years here. One of the burakumin liberation sites mentioned there was something like 1,000,000 people in Japan with buraku origins. It's a tiny fraction of the population. The thing is, most of society is (happily) losing its collective reflex on this - very gradually. The crowd on 2chan love to speculate on which actor or actress or politician is actually of Korean or buraku ancestry, but aside from the chat/gossip sites, the issue doesn't feature in my life. I live in Tokyo - I am aware that Osaka has a more pronounced outlook on the whole issue. Anyway, the sooner the prejudice fades, the better. Until it is completely gone, best to know that the issue is still a minefield and unless you are with someone who knows what the mines are and where they are buried, it is a dodgy place to play ball.
田 (ta, da, den) is the most common kanji found in Japan's last names. 姓名判断の謎を解く
There is nothing in the last name containing 田 that would give anyone a clue about possible burakumin connections. Your flatmate is wrong about this.
So that people don't think I'm trying to shut down the discussion...There is a lot of chatter on the internet regarding buraku issues. Various buraku rights groups in Japan publish all kinds of things concerning burakumin. If anybody wants to pick at this historical scab, there are plenty of venues available. It's not really a "no-no topic". It just doesn't come up in polite conversation. And why would it, unless you were talking about human rights or such. If it just a whisper campaign to find out if any of your co-workers who have 田 or 柳 or 川 etc... in their last names come from a burakumin background...well, then its kind of like perpetuating a prejudice that shouldn't exist in the first place. In that case, yes, it would be a no-no topic. Its as if you walked into a room where some people were closeted gays, and you started speculating loudly about which last names indicated gayness. It's an imperfect analogy, but often foreigners are inquisitive without realizing the cultural discomfort it causes.
I've been in Japan for a freaking long time. I speak a bit of Japanese. I, too, was intensely curious about this when I first came to Japan and asked what I'm sure were all sorts of ignorant questions. But other than my initial burst of curiosity, it has been a non-issue throughout my many years here. One of the burakumin liberation sites mentioned there was something like 1,000,000 people in Japan with buraku origins. It's a tiny fraction of the population. The thing is, most of society is (happily) losing its collective reflex on this - very gradually. The crowd on 2chan love to speculate on which actor or actress or politician is actually of Korean or buraku ancestry, but aside from the chat/gossip sites, the issue doesn't feature in my life. I live in Tokyo - I am aware that Osaka has a more pronounced outlook on the whole issue. Anyway, the sooner the prejudice fades, the better. Until it is completely gone, best to know that the issue is still a minefield and unless you are with someone who knows what the mines are and where they are buried, it is a dodgy place to play ball.
BobHobbs
Registered
- 28 Apr 2015
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- 0
Well, Majestic, first of all, thank you for the post, it has been truly educating.
I want to put one thing straight right from the beginning - I've spend quite some time in China, not Japan, so I'm definitely not in the know when it comes to historical topics as complex as "the Burakumin question".
Another thing I want to emphasize - I'm not taking sides, or to be more precise - for me people are people and the whole Burakumin thing, being an interesting topic aside, is more or less repulsive, but I know well enough that my opinion doesn't have any value, since I'm just a foreigner who doesn't understand Japanese culture very well.
Now that we got the elephant out of the room - my flatmate was very well-educated Japanese youth (he was studying in Waseda at that time) who has spend some time abroad and was extremely interested in Burakimins.
Although this is obviously second-hand information, what he told me was that the older generations - his parents for example - are more or less oblivious about the whole thing. It's not really mentioned in school, the national newspapers are not allowed to be open about it, there isn't enough info about it in the internet, etc.
It obviously varies from place to place - he was from Tokyo, so buraku people were more of an academic interest than actual social phenomena for him. Then again, in some places like Osaka it's an actual thing - your ancestry, as well as if you are from an 'undesirable' part of the city do play a part in your life - especially when it comes to employment, social status, etc.
That said, the current mayor of Osaka, who also happens to be popular politician all over the country, is with burakumin ancestry, so.. there's a light at the end of the tunnel, we just need more time.
And, finally, linguistics - for someone who is proficient in Chinese, 部落民 is such a charming combination of characters, I should study more Ancient Chinese then))))
I want to put one thing straight right from the beginning - I've spend quite some time in China, not Japan, so I'm definitely not in the know when it comes to historical topics as complex as "the Burakumin question".
Another thing I want to emphasize - I'm not taking sides, or to be more precise - for me people are people and the whole Burakumin thing, being an interesting topic aside, is more or less repulsive, but I know well enough that my opinion doesn't have any value, since I'm just a foreigner who doesn't understand Japanese culture very well.
Now that we got the elephant out of the room - my flatmate was very well-educated Japanese youth (he was studying in Waseda at that time) who has spend some time abroad and was extremely interested in Burakimins.
Although this is obviously second-hand information, what he told me was that the older generations - his parents for example - are more or less oblivious about the whole thing. It's not really mentioned in school, the national newspapers are not allowed to be open about it, there isn't enough info about it in the internet, etc.
It obviously varies from place to place - he was from Tokyo, so buraku people were more of an academic interest than actual social phenomena for him. Then again, in some places like Osaka it's an actual thing - your ancestry, as well as if you are from an 'undesirable' part of the city do play a part in your life - especially when it comes to employment, social status, etc.
That said, the current mayor of Osaka, who also happens to be popular politician all over the country, is with burakumin ancestry, so.. there's a light at the end of the tunnel, we just need more time
.And, finally, linguistics - for someone who is proficient in Chinese, 部落民 is such a charming combination of characters, I should study more Ancient Chinese then
))))
- 12 Oct 2013
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- 5,023
Hello BobHobbs - I feel I didn't adequately explain my reply, so thank you for letting me go on a bit more about this.
As an amateur student of Japanese history I find the topic slightly interesting, but my curiosity is quite diminished from the level I had when I first arrived here. I think what is difficult is in fact drawing this line between curiosity and prejudice. If, for the sake of argument, I make a post that says "The last name of Yoshida has buraku origins", does it really serve any meaningful purpose, even if it were true? Speaking for myself, It only allows me to raise my eyebrows and feel as though I held some privileged information every time I met someone with that last name - in other words, the only purpose it serves is to perpetuate the prejudice. It allows me to gawk. I don't trust myself enough to stop that information from influencing how I might think about that person. Any Yoshida-san I met wouldn't need or want my curiosity, pity or my compassion (well-intended or otherwise).
The second point is that the regional variances are so great, information not completely qualified by region is bound to be wrong. Your Waseda friend may well have been born or brought up in an area where certain names with 田 may have meant something at one time, but that experience cannot apply to the entirety of people with 田 in their names. The same for the English tutor mentioned above. The appeal to native authority doesn't carry much weight around here, since we all either speak the language, are married into it, or have some other strong connection.
I think maybe foreigners tend to romanticize ("orientalize?") about this. They assume it is an unspoken taboo in Japanese life, and another country's taboo is like catnip. It just begs to be poked and prodded. But the subject is talked about in the Japanese press, on the web, among human rights groups, etc... so its not as taboo as westerners think. It was the press who released the information that Hashimoto's father came from a buraku region. Apparently the original reading of the name was Hashishita, and his mother changed the name to disassociate from that region. This kicked off a huge, well-publicized row about the purpose of the story and discrimination, a row that ended up with Hashimoto getting a settlement from Asahi, I think. Note that the settlement wasn't because Asahi broke a taboo, it was because the newspaper was found to be singling out Hashimoto for discrimination. Also note that the burakumin liberation groups are not particularly fond of Hashimoto since he cut some funding that was intended for them. Anyway, there is a lot of information in the press, and there is loads of information on the internet. If you plug in 部落民 into a search engine you will get millions of hits. And the subject is indeed taught in schools. I don't think the topic is nearly as unspeakable as you have been led to believe, but its not the sort of conversation you would have in the lunch room at school.
As an amateur student of Japanese history I find the topic slightly interesting, but my curiosity is quite diminished from the level I had when I first arrived here. I think what is difficult is in fact drawing this line between curiosity and prejudice. If, for the sake of argument, I make a post that says "The last name of Yoshida has buraku origins", does it really serve any meaningful purpose, even if it were true? Speaking for myself, It only allows me to raise my eyebrows and feel as though I held some privileged information every time I met someone with that last name - in other words, the only purpose it serves is to perpetuate the prejudice. It allows me to gawk. I don't trust myself enough to stop that information from influencing how I might think about that person. Any Yoshida-san I met wouldn't need or want my curiosity, pity or my compassion (well-intended or otherwise).
The second point is that the regional variances are so great, information not completely qualified by region is bound to be wrong. Your Waseda friend may well have been born or brought up in an area where certain names with 田 may have meant something at one time, but that experience cannot apply to the entirety of people with 田 in their names. The same for the English tutor mentioned above. The appeal to native authority doesn't carry much weight around here, since we all either speak the language, are married into it, or have some other strong connection.
I think maybe foreigners tend to romanticize ("orientalize?") about this. They assume it is an unspoken taboo in Japanese life, and another country's taboo is like catnip. It just begs to be poked and prodded. But the subject is talked about in the Japanese press, on the web, among human rights groups, etc... so its not as taboo as westerners think. It was the press who released the information that Hashimoto's father came from a buraku region. Apparently the original reading of the name was Hashishita, and his mother changed the name to disassociate from that region. This kicked off a huge, well-publicized row about the purpose of the story and discrimination, a row that ended up with Hashimoto getting a settlement from Asahi, I think. Note that the settlement wasn't because Asahi broke a taboo, it was because the newspaper was found to be singling out Hashimoto for discrimination. Also note that the burakumin liberation groups are not particularly fond of Hashimoto since he cut some funding that was intended for them. Anyway, there is a lot of information in the press, and there is loads of information on the internet. If you plug in 部落民 into a search engine you will get millions of hits. And the subject is indeed taught in schools. I don't think the topic is nearly as unspeakable as you have been led to believe, but its not the sort of conversation you would have in the lunch room at school.
Hi, guys.
According to my Japanese flatmate, Burakumin people usually have 田 or similar character as their family name.
Obviously, some areas in certain cities (Osaka is a prime example) have a rather high percentage of people with Burakumin ancestry and - here comes the causal relation - people with 田 and similar family names.
Then again, Burakumin is a "no-no topic" in Japan, so English-language information is usually more reliable.
Hope I'm of some help here
Hi,
I don't know anything about Barakumin, but my surname has that very same character in it. What are Barakumin?
Last edited by a moderator:
- 12 Oct 2013
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Burakumin - Wikipedia
田 (ta) is one of the most common characters in Japanese surnames, if not the most common. Its inclusion in a last name is of virtually no significance.
Andy le Bojan
Registered
- 1 Mar 2021
- 1
- 3
I lived in a burakumin area in Shikoku in the 1990s. They were (and may still be) discriminated against, but in subtle ways. For example a young man from the area fell in love with a girl from Kochi City and they wanted to get married. However the girl's family vetoed it as they discovered (via simple research of the koseki) he was from the little burakumin village on the road to the Shimanto Gawa. The family don't need to give their reasons for refusal, only permission so the reason was never publicly spoken of. However if the family did mention it, my understanding was the national group representing burakumin would have sued them for discrimination and are known to be very active supporting their members. The discrimination was more pronounced in the country areas rather than the big cities and was basically non-existent in Hokkaido . In Hokkaido it was was the Ainu who were usually the target of discrimination. Also there was (back in the 1990s) a significant import duty on leather footwear (in excess of 49% real leather) to protect traditional leather workers, i.e. the burakumin. Finally, my experience showed me that young city folk, in particular from Tokyo, had almost no knowledge of the burakumin or other embarrassing parts of Japanese history like the Nanking Massacre, Korean slavery, the savage occupation of SE Asia by the Japanese during the 1940s or the persecution of the Okinawans and the Ainu. Like many countries, my own included, the school curriculum was heavily sanitised - but those who do not learn from the mistakes of history are bound to commit them again.
- 18 Jan 2005
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戸籍謄本には部落の記載はありません。
There is no mentioning of buraku in a copy of the family register.
戸籍と住民票の写しは本人以外は取得できません。
Anyone but the person himself can't acquire a copy of the family register and a resident card.
戸籍の写しと住民票を取得するには、本人以外は委任状と身分証明書が必要です。
All except for the person himself needs a power of attorney and status proof to acquire a copy of the family register and a resident card.
私は現在部落に住んでいますが、若者は別の場所に住んでいて、高齢者もほとんど亡くなっています。
新しい家が建てられるので、引っ越した人は昔からそこに住んでいる人よりもはるかに多くなります。
I live in buraku at present, but young people live at the different place and aged people have almost died, too.
A new house is built, so the person who has moved becomes a lot more than the person who lives there from the past.
そのため、住んでいる場所で部落民を特定することはできません。
Therefore I cannot identify buraku-min in a place living in.
子供の頃、部落に立派な公会堂が建てられて、学校の先生が夏休みに公会堂に来て教えてくれました。
An excellent public hall is built in the buraku me in a childhood,The teacher of school came to the public hall in summer vacation and teaches us.
学校の友達に聞いたら、先生は他の地区では訪問しませんでした。
After asking a friend at school,The teacher did not visit it in other districts.
部落だけの特別待遇でした。
It was a special treatment only for Buraku.
私は学校の部落差別のでカリキュラムで違和感を覚えた。
I felt uncomfortable with the curriculum because of Buraku discrimination at school
私は部落について逆差別を感じました。
I felt reverse discrimination about a buraku.
There is no mentioning of buraku in a copy of the family register.
戸籍と住民票の写しは本人以外は取得できません。
Anyone but the person himself can't acquire a copy of the family register and a resident card.
戸籍の写しと住民票を取得するには、本人以外は委任状と身分証明書が必要です。
All except for the person himself needs a power of attorney and status proof to acquire a copy of the family register and a resident card.
私は現在部落に住んでいますが、若者は別の場所に住んでいて、高齢者もほとんど亡くなっています。
新しい家が建てられるので、引っ越した人は昔からそこに住んでいる人よりもはるかに多くなります。
I live in buraku at present, but young people live at the different place and aged people have almost died, too.
A new house is built, so the person who has moved becomes a lot more than the person who lives there from the past.
そのため、住んでいる場所で部落民を特定することはできません。
Therefore I cannot identify buraku-min in a place living in.
子供の頃、部落に立派な公会堂が建てられて、学校の先生が夏休みに公会堂に来て教えてくれました。
An excellent public hall is built in the buraku me in a childhood,The teacher of school came to the public hall in summer vacation and teaches us.
学校の友達に聞いたら、先生は他の地区では訪問しませんでした。
After asking a friend at school,The teacher did not visit it in other districts.
部落だけの特別待遇でした。
It was a special treatment only for Buraku.
私は学校の部落差別のでカリキュラムで違和感を覚えた。
I felt uncomfortable with the curriculum because of Buraku discrimination at school
私は部落について逆差別を感じました。
I felt reverse discrimination about a buraku.
- 26 Sep 2015
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The last part wasn't quite clear to me - were you taught about Burakumin at school?
- 18 Jan 2005
- 11,682
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Yes, we were taught about Buraku discrimination when we were in elementary school.
It is said anti-discrimination education(同和教育Douwa Kyouiku).
同和教育 - Wikipedia
- 26 Sep 2015
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Thanks! I'll have to ask my kids whether they know about burakumin.Yes, we were taught about Buraku discrimination when we were in elementary school.
It is said anti-discrimination education(同和教育Douwa Kyouiku).
同和教育 - Wikipedia
ja.wikipedia.org
Ed Wong
Registered
- 5 Jul 2021
- 1
- 0
My martial arts teacher, from a thin-out samurai class, told us in the culture course that the elites, when matching the young, would inspect each other's genealogy. It's true that other than nobles and samurai class, ordinary folks don't have surnames, but genealogy books are traceable. Especially in the absence of one.There's apparently a "list" of sorts that has suspected burakumin people listed, along with people of Korean heritage, which is used to do background checks for those two subjects. I believe its called a Hisabetsu Buraku Chimei Sokan -
部落問題 - Wikipedia
BTW, my sensei's family was thin-out because they fought for the mighty Takeda clan which lost in the battle with Tokugawa.
