Bring back Hanja education

[BrianLewis]

I just read the other day in Truthful News Daily that Korean society is rapidly collapsing due to their inability to convey even simple ideas due to their woefully inadequate writing system which had thrust them onto a downward spiral of inexorable cultural degeneration.

No offense, but that just sounds preposterous. They have been publishing books in Hangul for the last 400 years. South Korea has become more prosperous in the last 60 years than in any time in the past 400 that they have been using the same writing system.

Personally, I have an entire bookcase filled with books written in Hangul. I have not had much of an issue with the words self destructing off the pages just yet. This sort of thing makes me wonder if it's more of an issue of a rumor bandwagon, or people actually talking about a language they know.

 

[Haruspex]

No offense, but that just sounds preposterous. They have been publishing books in Hangul for the last 400 years. South Korea has become more prosperous in the last 60 years than in any time in the past 400 that they have been using the same writing system.

Personally, I have an entire bookcase filled with books written in Hangul. I have not had much of an issue with the words self destructing off the pages just yet. This sort of thing makes me wonder if it's more of an issue of a rumor bandwagon, or people actually talking about a language they know.

You must think me a raving lunatic. Alright, let's go through this carefully, lest I be thought of as a maniac.

Truthful News Daily... doesn't exist. I made it up to be a placeholder for sensationalist online newspapers. The tone of my comment and the content, too, is incredibly grandiose and melodramatic. It has a whiff of exaggeration. Furthermore, very interestingly, the OP -a strong proponent of the views seemingly, but perhaps deceptively, espoused by my comment- swiftly dismissed my remark.

 

[BrianLewis]

You must think me a raving lunatic. Alright, let's go through this carefully, lest I be thought of as a maniac.

Truthful News Daily... doesn't exist. I made it up to be a placeholder for sensationalist online newspapers. The tone of my comment and the content, too, is incredibly grandiose and melodramatic. It has a whiff of exaggeration. Furthermore, very interestingly, the OP -a strong proponent of the views seemingly, but perhaps deceptively, espoused by my comment- swiftly dismissed my remark.

I don't see how inventing things can help expand on any discussion. Perhaps it might skew discussion indirectly by making people who look for real discussions find another forum.

 

[Haruspex]

I don't see how inventing things can help expand on any discussion. Perhaps it might skew discussion indirectly by making people who look for real discussions find another forum.

Sweet Lord Almightless! It's sarcasm! The whole purpose was to attack the OPs claim through the use of a sarcastic hyperbole. As for your criticism... well I never would have guessed that people wouldn't pick up on the sarcasm.

 

[Lestat84]

The whole hanja system being re-instituted would in my opinion create problems for everyone. It helps to over complicate an already fairly user friendly and refined language, and as someone said above does bring with it the ill will of Korea's history with China. To me this would make the language less attractive. To be honest, the kanji system in Japanese is the biggest turn off about the language. I just can't fathom having to memorize all of those, or even enough to be fully literate.

 

[dsvlee]

Chinese hanzi, kanji(jp), or Hanja(Kr) have existed for about 3500 yrs. And the oringinal Chinese characters were found to be over 8000 yrs to deliver messages. In other words, this means Chinese character system has evolved for thousands of yrs. And it is still be used by most people in the word, surely not so widely used as English. I do think no one can just say it is useless because it is complex. human being's brain is much bigger than other species', but can you say human being is much more stupid than other species'>

And Chinese were not only invented by a special kind of people, it was invented by all east asians in Chinese continent. No matter who use this language, which means he is an accepter (or heir) of a 4000-5000 yrs culture. If Korean has this in their blood, why they want to abandon it so much>

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

Protests Over Plan to Bring Hanja Education Back to Schools - koreaBANG

I'm reposting the OP's original link because it's really interesting, especially to read the native Koreans' comments at the end of the article. Whatever your opinion on the subject, I really think it worthwhile to see what the locals have to say.

 

[FinancialWar]

From the comments, it seem that most educated Koreans do have pretty decent level of Hanja.

 

[FrustratedDave]

I am no expert on the Chinese language or the Korean language, but what I know about Chinese tells me that Chinese characters fit the Chinese language like a glove, and other languages like a thick woolen mitten two sizes too large.

Another ridiculous statement by Mark of Sorro. What makes Chinese fit Kanji and not Japanese. Please, do tell, with your expert opinion.

 

[undrentide]

Protests Over Plan to Bring Hanja Education Back to Schools - koreaBANG

I'm reposting the OP's original link because it's really interesting, especially to read the native Koreans' comments at the end of the article. Whatever your opinion on the subject, I really think it worthwhile to see what the locals have to say.

It's interesting that many Koreans that posted comments are all for Hanja. I just wonder what the general opinion about hanja in Korea. (I'm too lazy to search for some stats about it.) I know that grammatical structure of Korean language is very close to Japanese but I have no idea how much influence their language got from hanjia, the same level like Japanese language, more, or less, or in differenty ways? I'm curous.

 

[caster55]

A better way to improve learning-INSIDE Korea JoongAng Daily

in case of chinese . it is said more than 70 % of Chinese words in social , humanity etc field are Japan made.
thank you in Korea , It is pronounced "kamsamnida."? it is from ﾅ?'ﾅｽﾃ督（japan made)
I think there are wasei kango much more than Chinese origin

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Another ridiculous statement by Mark of Sorro. What makes Chinese fit Kanji and not Japanese. Please, do tell, with your expert opinion.

I am astounded the plug has not been permanently pulled on your account yet.

I said right in that post that I am no expert. So what the bloody F have I done to merit such a vicious response? The only thing ridiculous here is your attacks and attitude from out of nowhere and based on nothing I have done to you. At least when I get rude and personal there is something to base it on. And I still spell names correctly.

Chinese characters are called Chinese characters because they were made for the Chinese language. Each Chinese character has one reading in Chinese and one reading only. There is zero confusion or exceptions, or at least very few, but you may or may not know how to read the character or know what it means.

With Japanese and I believe Korean as well, extreme adaptation is necessary to attempt to make the characters fit but they don't fit very well. The result is so bad that Japanese had to mix the characters with their own native phonetic system, sometimes even above the Chinese character itself (furigana or ruby), and there are still ongoing reforms concerning Chinese characters that spark debate and even reversals of the prior reforms. The Koreans just gave up on Chinese characters altogether.

In other words, Chinese characters in Chinese are smooth and fluid. In Japanese they are clunky and jarring. May as well resurrect Egyptian hieroglyphs and try to adapt them to English, then make it the official writing system.

 

[caster55]

The pronunciation of the hanzi is different by a district.
there was no phonetic sign until early 20th.
Pronunciation may be totally different from a neighboring towns.

anyway Because it is visual language, the kanji does not have to read aloud.
as for sentence, The important points and words are written in kanji
The hiragana letter connects them
Pay more attention to only kanjis and generally understand meanings of the sentence as speed reading.
in case of chinese, all character are Hanzi. it is a little bit difficult to read as speed reading.
because it hard to distinguish unlike Hanji and hiragana

as for in english," I sutudie englif et shcool. " it may understand this sentence
however, in case of hangul ,it is difficult to understand it because of phonetic
in case of kanji , it can understand even the some wrong characters.
私、英誤弁京する
勉狂私する英語

 

[dsvlee]

A better way to improve learning-INSIDE Korea JoongAng Daily

in case of chinese . it is said more than 70 % of Chinese words in social , humanity etc field are Japan made.
thank you in Korea , It is pronounced "kamsamnida."? it is from 感謝（japan made)
I think there are wasei kango much more than Chinese origin

So, where does 感謝 come from.
咸means taste, 心 means heart. So 感 means feel something with deep emotion in Chinese.谢 means thanks. This word can be seen firstly used by a Chinese historian between 441~513 AD in the book 《宋书》. 宋书 recorded a Chinese history happened from 405 to 488 AD.

 

[FinancialWar]

A better way to improve learning-INSIDE Korea JoongAng Daily

in case of chinese . it is said more than 70 % of Chinese words in social , humanity etc field are Japan made.
thank you in Korea , It is pronounced "kamsamnida."? it is from 感謝（japan made)
I think there are wasei kango much more than Chinese origin

As an Han Chinese, this is shocking. Do you have any source where I can read more on this subject?

As I look deeper into the subject, damn a lot of common words in modern Chinese are 和製漢語,

壽司、組織、紀律、政治、革命、政府、政黨、方針、政策 、經濟、商業、幹部、健康、社會主義、封建、共和、取締、引渡、樣、手續、具體的、目的、宗旨、權利、義務、當事者、所為、強制執行、場合、打消、動員令、無某某之必要、代價、債權人、債務人、原素、要素、偶素、常素、損害賠償、法人、重婚罪、契約、衛生、文憑、盲從、排外、公敵、旨趣、派出所、警察、憲兵、檢察官、水体


汉语日语借词表：
A:
暗示
B:
霸权、白旗、白热、白夜、版画、半径、半旗、饱和、保险、保障、悲观、悲剧、背景、必要、变压器、辩护士、辩证法、标本、标高、标语、表决、表像波长、博士、不动产、不景气
C:
财阀、财团、采光、参观、参看、参照、插话、刹
那、常备兵、常识、场合、场所、衬衣、成份、成员、承认、乘客、乘务员、宠儿、抽象、出版、出版物、出超、出发点、出口、出庭、初夜权、处女地、处女作、储藏、储蓄、触媒、传染病、创作、刺激、催眠、错觉、
D:
打消、大本营、大局、大气、代表、代言人、贷方、单纯、单位、单行本、单元、蛋白质、导火线、道具、登记、等外、低调、低能、低能儿、低压、抵抗、地上水、地下水、地质、地质学、电报、电波、电车、电池、电话、电流、电子、定义、动产、动机、动力、动力学、动脉、动态、动议、动员、独占、读本、读物、对象、对照
E:
二重奏、
F:
发明、法律、法人、法庭、法则、反动、反感、反射、反响、反对、反应、泛神论、范畴、方案、方程式、方式、方针、分解、分配、分析、分子、封建、封锁、否定、否决、否认、服务、服用、辐射、附着、复式、复员、复制、副官、副食
G:
改编、改订、概括、概略、概念、概算、感性、干部、干事、干线、纲领、高潮、高利贷、高射炮、歌剧、革命、工业、攻守同盟、公报、公立、公民、公判、公仆、公认、公诉、公营、公债、共产主义、共和、共鸣、固定、固体、故障、关系、观测、观点、观念、关照、光年、光线、广场、广告、广义、归纳、规范、规则、国际、国教、国库、国立、国税、国体、过渡、
H:
海拔、寒带、航空母舰、化脓、化石、化学、化妆品、画廊、环境、幻想曲、回收、会话、会社、会谈、混凝土、活跃
J:
机关、机关炮、机械、积极、基地、基调、基准、集结、集团、集中、计划、记号、记录、技师、假定、假分数、尖端、尖兵、坚持、简单、见习、间接、建筑、鉴定、讲师、讲坛、讲习、讲演、讲座、交感神经、交换、交际、交通、交响乐、脚本、教科书、教授、教养、教育学、阶级、接吻、节约、结核、解放、介入、借方、金额、金刚石、金婚式、金牌、金融、金丝雀、紧张、进度、进化、进化论、进展、经费、经济、经济恐慌、经济学、经验、精神、景气、警察、警官、净化、静脉、竞技、就任、拘留、巨匠、巨头、具体、俱乐部、剧场、决算、绝对、军国主义、军籍、军需品、
K:
看守、科学、客观、客体、课程、肯定、空间、会计、扩散
L:
浪人、累减、累进、类型、冷藏、冷藏库、冷战、理论、理念、理事、理想、理性、理智、力学、立场、立宪、例会、了解、列车、淋巴、临床、领空、领海、领土、流感、流体、流线型、流行病、流行性感冒、伦理学、论理学、论坛、论战
M:
漫笔、漫画、漫谈、媒介、美感、美化、美术、免许、民法、民主、敏感、明确、命题、默示、母校、目标、目的
N:
内服、内阁、内幕、内勤、内容、内分泌、内在、能动、能力、拟人化、年度、暖流、偶然
P
派遣、判决、陪审、陪审员、配给、品味、平面、评价
Q:
骑士、气密、气体、气质、汽船、汽笛、铅笔、前提、前卫、强制、侵犯、侵略、勤务、轻工业、清教徒、清算、情报、情操、取缔、取消、权威、权限、权益
R
热带、人格、人权、人文主义、人选、任命、日程、溶体、入场券、入超、入口
S:
三昧、商业、少将、社会、社会学、社会主义、社交、社团、身份、神经、神经过敏、神经衰弱、审美、审判、审问、升华、生产、生产关系、生产力、生理学、生态学、剩余价值、失效、施工、施行、时间、时事、时效、实感、实绩、实权、实业、士官、世纪、世界观、事变、事态、事务员、手工业、手榴弹、手续、输出、输入、水准、水密、私法、私立、思潮、思想、死角、诉权、素材、素描、素质、速度、速记、随员、所得税、索引
T:
他律、台、探险、探照灯、特长、特权、特务、体操、体育、条件、通货膨胀、同情、统计、投机、投影、投资、图案、图书馆、退化、退役
W:
外在、外分泌、外勤、外在、唯心论、唯物论、卫生、味之素、胃溃疡、尉官、文化、文库、文明、文学、物理、物理学、物语、物质、悟性
X:
狭义、下水道、系列、系数、系统、细胞、现金、现实、现象、现役、宪兵、宪法、腺、相对、想像、象征、消防、消费、消化、消火栓、消极、小型、小夜曲、校训、效果、协定、协会、心理学、新闻记者、信号、信托、信用、刑法、形而上学、性能、虚无主义、序幕、序曲、宣传、宣战、选举、学府、学会、学历、学士、学位、血栓、巡洋舰、训话、训令、训育、讯问
Y:
演出、演说、演习、演绎、演奏、阳极、液体、医学、遗传、义务、议决、议会、议员、议院、艺术、异物、意匠、意识、意义、意译、音程、银行、银婚式、引得、引渡、印鉴、印象、营养、影像、优生学、右翼、语源学、预备役、预后、预算、元帅、元素、园艺、原动力、原理、原意、原则、原子、原罪、原作、远足、运动、运动场、运转手
Z:
杂志、债权、债务、战线、哲学、阵容、证券、政策、政党、支配、支线、知识、直观、直接、直径、直觉、直流、纸型、指标、指导、指教、制版、制裁、制约、质量、中将、终点、仲裁、仲裁人、重点、重工业、主笔、主动、主观、主人公、主食、主体、主义、注射、专卖、资本、资本家、资料、自律、自然淘汰、自由、总动员、总理、总领事、组成、组阁、组合、组织、最惠国、左翼、作品、作物、作者、坐药、座谈

http://edu.21cn.com/jg/yuanda/news955.htm


^^ above words are all Japanese origin?! Holy sh1t, my Chinese pride just went down the drain. It seems that modern Mandarin vocabulary could be closer to Japanese than to pre-Qing Chinese.

 

[Toritoribe]

Do you have any source where I can read more on this subject?

forum091
(all in Japanese)

The site has the list of references at the end of the page.

 

[FinancialWar]

These references are not linked.

Anyways, does any one know an online Chinese etymology dictionary (not Chinese character etymology dictionary but vocabulary etymology) or a dictionary that shows word origin?

 

[caster55]

there is a link of about 感謝?
at least there was no words of 感謝 in korea


in chinese


so is 人民共和国

 

[FinancialWar]

Image how shocked or even offended Chinese people would be if I tell them that 人民共和国 in 中华人民共和国 are actually Japanese vocabulary.

 

[dsvlee]

there is a link of about 感謝?
at least there was no words of 感謝 in korea


in chinese


so is 人民共和国

those links are written in Chinese.....
You see, the whole asian history was written in Chinese, if some asian abandon this, then he misses a lot of the truth. The only thing he can do is guess or imagin it. by using Chinese, however I can know the origin of 感谢 easily.

 

[dsvlee]

there is a link of about 感謝?
at least there was no words of 感謝 in korea


in chinese


so is 人民共和国

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Song

 

[Haruspex]

those links are written in Chinese.....
You see, the whole asian history was written in Chinese, if some asian abandon this, then he misses a lot of the truth. The only thing he can do is guess or imagin it. by using Chinese, however I can know the origin of ﾅ?'谢 easily.

So... Arabic history was written in Chinese, yes?

Oooh yeah, you can know the origins of logographs. Well done! Would you like a knighthood to go with that Nobel Prize?

Etymology is often of limited use. In everyday speech it's INCREDIBLY easy to get by with current, up to date connotations, as informal speech permits the parties to simply ask each other for clarification, should there be a misunderstanding. As for more formal, perhaps acadmic, speech. Well, guess what, academics are, for the most part, intelligent people with adequate linguistic knowledge and skills. They are expected to be able to use connotations accurately, but even they only rarely go back to look at etymology (unless that's what they're immersed in). Over 99% of academic writings will not try to go back to some dead-*** Proto Indo-European word for 'rat' and resurrect and 'reinstate' it. That doesn't happen. I'm sure Chinese is of great relevance to scholars of languages that were in some way influenced by the Chinese language. It is, however, of absolutely no relevance to Jim, who's a chemical engineer, unless he does business in Chinese.

Cultural arguments are largely irrelevant. Reams of historical data's been translated into English out of pragmatism and many more volumes will be subjected to the same treatment. I see major fear/inadequacy-inspired testicular frenzy here and it's not suprising me. Some people in every country are overflowing with feelings of pride over their national/racial/ethnic/whatever heritage, and they just can't help themselves. They have to spray it all over. In your soup, on your shoes, in your eyes - they're just very liberal with it. I mean, hey, I was really patriotic for like a week when I was around 11, but I quickly recovered and grew out of it. There's like countless languages that are not Chinese and their writing systems aren't Chinese either and they're able to provide functional frameworks for their users.

 

[FinancialWar]

I am not sure about 感謝, this word sounds very Chinese. Because words like 科学、革命 does not sound the sort of vocabulary that existed in Qing China prior to 1850, so I think it is most likely to have been imported from Japan after 1850.

 

[dsvlee]

I mean east asian history. Sorry for that.

So... Arabic history was written in Chinese, yes?

Oooh yeah, you can know the origins of logographs. Well done! Would you like a knighthood to go with that Nobel Prize?

QUOTE] caster55 said Kamsamida came from Japanese,感谢. I just told that 感谢 was firstly used by Chinese. And I have to say it is still be used in normal Chinese life. The meaning of 感谢 is exacly the same with other oriental countries. So your theories below is vain.

 

[caster55]

I mean east asian history. Sorry for that.

So... Arabic history was written in Chinese, yes?

Oooh yeah, you can know the origins of logographs. Well done! Would you like a knighthood to go with that Nobel Prize?

QUOTE] caster55 said Kamsamida came from Japanese,感谢. I just told that 感谢 was firstly used by Chinese. And I have to say it is still be used in normal Chinese life. The meaning of 感谢 is exacly the same with other oriental countries. So your theories below is vain.

there is a discription of 感謝？in old Chinese document. please show it.

i know this