According to the robe's diary,Japanese officer(s) or soldier(s) and the member(s) of red Red Swastika Society went to the university and searched the women who would work as prostitues and the member of Red Swastika Society looked around and picked up some women.They were ex-prostitute.That's why they easily agreed to be comfort women.bossel said:Look at Rabe's diary again!
Obviously quite often.
Who says so? The number is closer to 1m (960,000 or something). Are you mistaking that for the overall number of Jewish Holocaust victims? Which would be 5 to 6m.
I remember that episode quite well, I think. The Japanese officers came there & demanded a certain number of women for their brothels. They didn't know if there were any prostitutes among the women there (neither did the US woman in charge). They discussed for a while & the US American couldn't change the soldiers' mind. Only after another foreigner arrived (or was already there & had just then the idea, don't remember) & (his Chinese aide?) asked, if there were any prostitutes among the women, the impasse ended. Do you really think, the Japanese soldiers would have left without "comfort women", if no prostitutes would have been present?urecco said:It shows that comfort women were nothing but prostitutes.
Which mainstream historians? Since I can remember (which means: since the late 70's), nothing has changed in the overall number of 6 million Jews killed. If there would have been a sudden drop in confirmed deaths at Auschwitz of 3m, the total would have had to change as well.However,the mainstream historinas said 4 million had died until 1990,when USSR dissolved.
If you would have checked thoroughly, you would have seen that the plaques say "people" respectively "men, women & children, mainly Jews". Anyway, can't see what a plaque has to do with mainstream history.You can check the picture of stone monuments.
Oh yeah, that's a great source, very objective. On another page of their site you will find the denial of the existence of gas chambres in Auschwitz.
You really see only what you want to. Quotes from Wikipedia:Surprisingly,wikipedia English ver. says roughly the same thing.
There is no German version of this.Bossel, please check Germany ver.
But, in any case, it is true that Robe did not see that Japanese Army directly forced women to work.bossel said:I remember that episode quite well, I think. The Japanese officers came there & demanded a certain number of women for their brothels. They didn't know if there were any prostitutes among the women there (neither did the US woman in charge). They discussed for a while & the US American couldn't change the soldiers' mind. Only after another foreigner arrived (or was already there & had just then the idea, don't remember) & (his Chinese aide?) asked, if there were any prostitutes among the women, the impasse ended. Do you really think, the Japanese soldiers would have left without "comfort women", if no prostitutes would have been present?
I don't know which ones said that.bossel said:Which mainstream historians? Since I can remember (which means: since the late 70's), nothing has changed in the overall number of 6 million Jews killed. If there would have been a sudden drop in confirmed deaths at Auschwitz of 3m, the total would have had to change as well.
What do the plaques saying "people" respectively "men, women & children, mainly Jews" imply?bossel said:If you would have checked thoroughly, you would have seen that the plaques say "people" respectively "men, women & children, mainly Jews". Anyway, can't see what a plaque has to do with mainstream history.
But it does not mean that the plaques are fake.bossel said:Oh yeah, that's a great source, very objective. On another page of their site you will find the denial of the existence of gas chambres in Auschwitz.
I never say that all comfort women were voluntary.bossel said:You really see only what you want to. Quotes from Wikipedia:
"it is not correct to categorise all comfort women as voluntary. Many were tricked by fraud or their families were forced to sell these women due to economic hardship, and especially in Japanese colonies some were kidnapped by these middlemen as part of human trafficking"
"especially in the countryside where the presence of middlemen or brothels are rare, the army directly demanded that the local leaders procure women for their brothels. The situation became worse as the war progressed."
"each unit made up the difference by demanding tribute from locals or, more often, by direct looting. Moreover, at this point, when locals, especially Chinese, were considered to be hostile, they carried out the policy known as "purging" (in Japanese テ?ナセ窶禿?催ャツ静ュ, in Chinese ナスOナ津オツ催ャツ静ュ)"
Yeah, right, Rabe himself didn't witness it, hence it didn't happen. Oh, man...urecco said:But, in any case, it is true that Robe did not see that Japanese Army directly forced women to work.
Eg. in Germany it still is.But in several countries,minimizing the number of victims of Holocaust was illegal.
Ever heard of the Cold War? It's rather improbable that any Western historians simply took that number because the SU may have proposed it.And USSR's official statement said the victims were 4 million.
So no mainstream histrians could say it was doubtful,I think.
But I have no source about it.
Depends, who put it up.In my opinion,the plaque was unlikely to mentioned what the mainstream histrians had proved isn't true.
Only partly, for the greatest part the number is based on detailed records of killed Jews. Even the death squads working behind the front lines in conquered territory had records.The answer is that total victims were based on the estimates of total population of Jews before the Holocaust and after it.
That not only Jews were killed there. This is common knowledge.What do the plaques saying "people" respectively "men, women & children, mainly Jews" imply?
But it also doesn't make the plaques part of mainstream history.But it does not mean that the plaques are fake.
Nope. There are enough witnesses to prove otherwise, for what I know.In any case,it is the misconseption that Japanese Army directly forced a large amount of Korean women to work as prostitutes,right?
I asked you to give me an example of the witnesses.Yeah, right, Rabe himself didn't witness it, hence it didn't happen. Oh, man...
AFAIK,no historians keep the number of 4 million killed in Auschwitz.But it also doesn't make the plaques part of mainstream history.
Nope. There are enough witnesses to prove otherwise, for what I know.
you must not know the difference between "窶凖ーツ身窶佚?" a technically 'volunteer corps' and "ヒ?藩??窶「w' Comfort women as neither many Korean.lemiel said:I'm South korean 25years old,
I was suprised by this post's replies. no Evidence. only Prostitution, no rape.
Why? I have grand mother 82years old. and many Korean people that lived when Japan controlled korea still live. young koreans heard that Sex slave story named 'ナ渡ナ坦ヒ?藩??窶「w' ARMY COMFOT GIRL by their grand parents lived when korean was colony.
First, I maybe must thanks about Japan's this crime.
My grand mother did not want marry. But she had to marry my grand father. why?
at that time, Japan colony government officials took unmarried woman or school girl. they said ' For great japan empire, You must serve in factory, Government will give fair pay...'
prostitution was, is, will be.. Yes, it's true. but, In the modern age, Which nation government trick school girl, unmarried woman and make sex slave in the army? It can be recognized by modern japanese?
Government never tricked or forced.It was done by private middlemen and Japan tried to prevent that crime.lemiel said:at that time, In position of Japan goverment, Korean school girl and unmarried woman were Member of Japan empire. Which nation government trick their people, made them sexslave? It's not Crime? If present Japan government do same thing to japanese, Will Japan people say 'prostitution was always.'?
there are no reliable testimonies.lemiel said:What evidence? many Koreans that remembered that time live until now. They do not Die all. They can not be witness?
From your very link:urecco said:Government never tricked or forced.It was done by private middlemen and Japan tried to prevent that crime.
Nope, probably there are no reliable testimonies you like to see. That's a difference.there are no reliable testimonies.
What you quoted is the reason why many Korean and even some Japanese believe the military forced them to work.bossel said:From your very link:
"However, since 1992, when the historian Yoshimi Yoshiaki discovered incriminating documents in the archives of Japan's National Defense Agency indicating that the military was directly involved in running the brothels (by, for example, selecting the agents who recruited or coerced women into service)"
1992, the paper also published the discovery of documents in the archives of Japan's National Defense Agency indicating that the military was directly involved in selecting the agents who recruited these women into service. The article implied that the document is a smoking gun, proving the government's complicty in the forcible kidnapping of women. The publication of the article was just five days before Japanese Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa paid a visit to South Korea. Miyazawa made a formal apology during that visit. However, the investigation by Hata Ikuhiko subsequently discovered that the entire Jeju Island episode documented in Yoshida's book to be a fiction, which the author of the book later admitted. Moreover, the supposedly incriminating documents proving the military's involvement in selecting the agents in fact showed that the military issued such directives to prevent abuse, in response to reports of complaints from the colonial police force about the methods employed by these agents. And it was shown that some of these women were sold by their parents to these agents as bonded labour, a practice not uncommon at the time both in Japan and in Korea.
Okay give me one which show that the military systematically forced Korean women to work.bossel said:Nope, probably there are no reliable testimonies you like to see. That's a difference.
You're quite funny in a way. How should a Korean comfort woman testify systematic coercion? She can only witness her own case & that of a few others she met in the brothel.urecco said:Okay give me one which show that the military systematically forced Korean women to work.
What's the answer.bossel said:You're quite funny in a way. How should a Korean comfort woman testify systematic coercion? She can only witness her own case & that of a few others she met in the brothel.
Liar!? Why then this "Letter from Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi to the former comfort women"?urecco said:And there are no documents that shows systematic coercion done by the military.
Liar!? Yoshiaki Yoshimi is still on the issue.Thus,in Japan,no historians say Japan forced women to be Comfort Women.
History.What is the reason you think there was systematic forceful coercion?
#31 everyone was directly coerced by the military(no middlemen)
2 middlemen(agents) had the order(permission) to kidnap or deceive.
3 Both middlemen and the military coerced.
4 middlemen coerced in bad way against the law.
See sources above. & even the Japanese Asian Women's Fund (not really loved in Korea) admits "there were even cases where administrative/ military personnel directly took part in the recruitments."please give me atestimony which backs your opinon up,if you can.
He did not say the military directly forced them to work.bossel said:Liar!? Why then this "Letter from Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi to the former comfort women"?
Comfort stations were settled where the military was.So the military must have involved the establishing,supervising and maintaining.However,Comfort stations were not rape centres and the issue is the way of recruitment.bossel said:& why does the UNHCR say this (see my post linked above):
"The present appendix relies exclusively on the facts established in the Japanese Government's own review of the involvement of Japanese military officials in establishing, supervising and maintaining rape centres during the Second World War."
As you know,the one who find the document of involvement of the military is Yoshiaki Yoshimi.He said Japan forced them to work.bossel said:Liar!? Yoshiaki Yoshimi is still on the issue.
Totsuka is a layer not a historian.bossel said:Others seem to have a similar stance:
http://www.jca.apc.org/JWRC/center/english/index-english.htm
Could you show me any books or articles which mentioned about forcible recruitment of Comfort women written by 1980?bossel said:History.
Personnel took part in it as individuals.bossel said:See sources above. & even the Japanese Asian Women's Fund (not really loved in Korea) admits "there were even cases where administrative/ military personnel directly took part in the recruitments."
Ah, of course, not directly. Why didn't I indulge in those wonderful wordplays?urecco said:He did not say the military directly forced them to work.
From the UNHCHR link:Comfort stations were settled where the military was.So the military must have involved the establishing,supervising and maintaining.However,Comfort stations were not rape centres and the issue is the way of recruitment.
Maybe in Japan. In the rest of the world the issue is responsibility of Japan (-ese government & military authorities).In Japan,the issue is simply if there was forcible recruitment (by the military) or not.
Totsuka? Don't know this name (& I don't know, why you insist on professional historians. Just being a historian doesn't make you an expert on the issue of comfort women [else I would be an expert, too. why then argue with me?]). Look at this list on the same website, you'll find the names of some Japanese historians, if you need.Totsuka is a layer not a historian.
please see interesting news about him.
Now you're getting freakin' funny! From the article:http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20040616a8.htm
Agents were arrested for kidnapping and deceiving and punished.
That means gov't never allowed agents to kidnap or deceive.
Why?Could you show me any books or articles which mentioned about forcible recruitment of Comfort women written by 1980?
Whether systematic or not, doesn't really matter (also from the UNHCHR):Personnel took part in it as individuals.
As you mentioned, Japan had responsiblility to prevent crimes.But it did not work perfectly.So he appologized.bossel said:Ah, of course, not directly. Why didn't I indulge in those wonderful wordplays?
What Japanese government says is written the link which you showed.bossel said:From the UNHCHR link:
"These facts, as stipulated by the Japanese Government, clearly demonstrate that contrary to repeated claims that the so-called "comfort women" "worked" in privately administered brothels, the women, many of whom were still children at the time, were in fact enslaved in rape centres either directly by the Japanese military or with the full knowledge and support of the Japanese military. The women and children who were held there against their will inside these "comfort stations" were then subjected to acts of rape and sexual violence on such a massive scale that the nature of the crime may only properly be described as a crime against humanity."
I said "Any historians now do not say "the military directly coerced them"bossel said:Totsuka? Don't know this name (& I don't know, why you insist on professional historians. Just being a historian doesn't make you an expert on the issue of comfort women [else I would be an expert, too. why then argue with me?]). Look at this list on the same website, you'll find the names of some Japanese historians, if you need.
He is using that incident as a proof of "Comfort Women."bossel said:Now you're getting freakin' funny! From the article:
"The lower court ruling state that the 15 Japanese women were taken to the brothel in Shanghai from Nagasaki in 1932, even though they were told they would work at diners for Japanese military personnel or at restaurants in Shanghai."
Hence this court ruling is pretty much unrelated to the question whether the Japanese government condoned, allowed or supported the coercion of non-Japanese women into sex slavery.
I mentioned how this issue broke up and the begining was fabrication.bossel said:Why?
Any Korean people have no right to get compansation for the Japanese act due to the treaty in 1965.bossel said:Whether systematic or not, doesn't really matter (also from the UNHCHR):
"a Government and its officials could be held liable for violations of international law under a theory of "original liability" for acts performed by a Government and "actions of the lower agents or private individuals as are performed at the Government's command or with its authorization"
[...]
The responsible State is then liable "to pay compensation for injurious acts of its officials which, although unauthorized, fall within the normal scope of their duties".
[...]
Thus, Japan is liable for the actions of its military and any of its agents, including the private individuals who ran and profited from "comfort stations" at the request of the Japanese military."
To use your own methods here: He did not apologise directly for not being able to prevent crimes. He said "The issue of comfort women, with an involvement of the Japanese military authorities at that time, was a grave affront to the honor and dignity of large numbers of women." Involvement goes a bit further than being "unable to prevent."urecco said:As you mentioned, Japan had responsiblility to prevent crimes.But it did not work perfectly.So he appologized.
There is not one single document (that I know of). There is enough evidence to give a general picture of the involvement of the Japanese military, though.What I asked you to show is any document which shows systematic coercion.
And you did not show it.
Why should the Japanese government have to write this?Can you show the original article of Japanese government which says Comfort Stations were rape camps?
From the link you'd have also found a number of Japanese historians. If you have problems with seeing things you don't like it's not my fault.I said "Any historians now do not say "the military directly coerced them"
And you said "Liar!?" and showed the link.
From the link I found him.So I said he is not a historian (I did not lie).
So, when Koreans coerced women in the name of the Japanese military into Japanese brothels the Japanese military was responsible either way. Good point.Korean were technically Japanese though.
Crap! You mean no evidence you like has been found.I mentioned how this issue broke up and the begining was fabrication.
And no real evidence has been found.
History is: the fact that there was a system under Japanese control to force women into sexual slavery.You said history is the reason why you think there was systematic coercion.
so I wanted to know what is history.
Individual crimes are in history books.There are no need to write about individual crimes in the textbooks.
Both can go hand in hand.There is a big difference between individual crimes and systematic crimes of the military or authorities.
Actually, yes, the German military in WWII did so.Would you say the German military forced them to provide sex?
The biggest issue is the way of recruitments.bossel said:Coomaraswamy report to the UN:
"the consistency of the accounts of women from quite different parts of South-East Asia of the manner in which they were recruited and the clear involvement of the military and Government at different levels is indisputable.
[...]
The first comfort stations under direct Japanese control were those in Shanghai in 1932, and there is first-hand evidence of official involvement in their establishment. One of the commanders of the Shanghai campaign, Lieutenantツ―General Okamura Yasuji, confessed in his memoirs to have been the original proponent of comfort stations for the military."
Testimonies are not enough to prove anything.If they were,UFOs and Nessie would be proven.Nearly all evidence concerning the recruitment of "comfort women" comes from the oral testimony of the victims themselves.
That's just you, as I said.urecco said:The biggest issue is the way of recruitments.
That depends on the testimonies.Testimonies are not enough to prove anything.
Used these 3 as examples.About recruitments,Coomoraswamy just picked up these theree testimonies.
Hmm, didn't you say these Koreans were technically Japanese? What's more, the police worked for the Japanese, hence Japanese responsibility.In Korea,over 50% of Policemen were Korean.
Actually, it would be quite surprising if there were no incoherences in witness accounts.oral testimonies without any incoherances