Animal Cruelty in Japan. How Bad is it and Why?

To anyone who says 'show me the videos', rather than SPOONFEED YOU and HOLD YOUR HAND, I invite you to do a simple websearch for videos of the Japanese dolphin slaughter. They're readily available on YouTube for example. Some are mislabeled for whatever reason but a mildly critical eye can easily decipher which videos are the Japanese ones. This isn't some mythical practice that's never been caught on tape, this is well documented. As one previous poster aptly pointed out, the act of closing your eyes or failing to notice does not mean a thing has ceased to exist. This kind of semantic posturing is so juvenille, it's like we're in class arguing about a topic and then we've got these uppity, cafe latte-sipping types whose idea of an intelligent starting point is 'does the textbook even exist in the first place?'. I mean if that's the level you wanna bring it to then heck why even get out of bed in the morning?

Furthermore, while there are always going to be exceptions to the rule I think most rational people are able to decipher which section or part of a thing we are arguing about at the onset of the discussion. Clearly, small organically run farms, mom and pops establishments, places where Halal or perhaps even Kosher methods are endorsed/enforced, etc., and all other exceptions to the rule where abuse does not take place, are not the targets of either this discussion or the non-profit groups which seek to change modern farming methods. What this discussion is moreso concerned with is the standardized, 'efficient', cost-effective method of meat production which is utilized by most modern and professional (read: max profit, quality less of an issue, animal treatment even less of an issue) slaughterhouses. Herein lies the issue of animal treatment and it's still a large enough problem, as evidenced by this latest discovery of animal abuse in the US, to warrant action or at the very least some discussion.

There are many parallels between what went on at that slaughterhouse and what goes on during these dolphin hunts, and this is the common link. Unnecessary suffering, pain, abuse, etc., is not something living creatures should endure. The reason why dolphin slaughtering garners such public outrage is because animals of a certain intelligence threshold are deemed to be capable of more complex interaction and thought process, so the idea of forcing suffering and pain onto them is that much more disgusting and closer to human suffering.

It's the reason why we experiment on lab rats and not people, and why you feel differently about stepping on an ant vs. seeing a dog or person run over by a car. It's intangible and subjective but still quite real and I think a general consensus reality exists among people who are opposed to dolphin slaughtering, whaling, the poaching of apes, inhumane farming, etc. such that they're able to agree on this.

On the other side of the argument are those who just see animals like bricks or wood, something else to be used, discarded, whatever.

My husband and I were talking about this at dinner...He reminded me that there was a cage left at Kinshicho Park in Tokyo by a little shrine, with 2 ferrets. They were abandoned. They did have food and a water bottle. I know that they were gone the next morning. His boss said that animal welfare people took them.

And BK I agree whole heartedly with your above paragraphs. Thanks for writing it.

sorry I forgot to ask this....Is there a place where you can turn in your pets if you can no longer take care of them in Japan? I asked my husband and he said he didn't know.....

Goldiegirl said:

Sorry I forgot to ask this....Is there a place where you can turn in your pets if you can no longer take care of them in Japan? I asked my husband and he said he didn't know.....

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There are many groups and organizations in Japan that help to find fosters for abandoned pets, as well as those who help you to find a new owner when you cannot take care of your pets.

This is one of the organizations that find foster care for abandoned pets.

These are organizations that help you find a new owner when you can no longer take care of your pets.



If you search by Google with the key wards ペット (pet) and 里親 (satooya - meaning foster), you can find more.

So...getting back to the understood purpose for this thread, the level of animal cruelty in Japan is not that bad at all. The terms are vague enough, the comparative degrees are understandable enough, and so it's just like about anywhere else in the world, and likely better than some.

I haven't come across any great studies on this so I do not have statistics, but with an educated guess based on what I have seen and heard and experienced in my life, both here in elsewhere, it's about the same level as the majority of post-industrial countries.

Goldiegirl said:

sorry I forgot to ask this....Is there a place where you can turn in your pets if you can no longer take care of them in Japan? I asked my husband and he said he didn't know.....

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Thanks to both undrentide and Kyoto Returnee. We donate money and supplies to our local shelter here and I wish to do the same in Japan. Every little bit counts! I am happy to see that there are rescues and foster care. I was thinking that maybe a lot of people can't have pets because there seems to be a lot of rental property and then I thought maybe they would have to give up their pets if they had to move to a new place. That is happening right now in the USA because of the mortgage crisis. People are leaving their homes for apartments and giving up their pets. That makes me sad.

I'll say this about pet food in Japan, you can get it at every convenience store and my cats absolutely go crazy for the canned fish cat food.

Furthermore, while there are always going to be exceptions to the rule I think most rational people are able to decipher which section or part of a thing we are arguing about at the onset of the discussion. Clearly, small organically run farms, mom and pops establishments, places where Halal or perhaps even Kosher methods are endorsed/enforced, etc., and all other exceptions to the rule where abuse does not take place, are not the targets of either this discussion or the non-profit groups which seek to change modern farming methods. What this discussion is moreso concerned with is the standardized, 'efficient', cost-effective method of meat production which is utilized by most modern and professional (read: max profit, quality less of an issue, animal treatment even less of an issue) slaughterhouses. Herein lies the issue of animal treatment and it's still a large enough problem, as evidenced by this latest discovery of animal abuse in the US, to warrant action or at the very least some discussion.

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I do think the animal welfare of animals in meat production plants is an admirable ideal. These plants are the ones under the greatest scrutiny. Now it is great that people are jumping all over the latest case of abuse. Still whether that abuse is indicative of widespread abuse is another thing. Of course even if it only accounted for a small percentage it may be said that it is still unacceptable. It is unacceptable, though in any industry there will be deviation from what was intended. That is the reality. O% Doesn't really exist. I think that the industry does not want the negative publicity. Image is important especially in this age where brand accounts for so much of corporate value. That doing the right thing in the long term is beneficial to the bottom line. Rather than it being malicious behavior it is a flaunting of regulation. Even if such case were reduced to a fraction of a percentage point, it would still be enough for some to attack the industry. Keeping a watch on the industry is important but sometimes I think things are not taken into perspective. Also whether mass meat production could be compatible with what some animal activists believe to be proper treatment is something that could be realistically done is debatable.

There are many parallels between what went on at that slaughterhouse and what goes on during these dolphin hunts, and this is the common link. Unnecessary suffering, pain, abuse, etc., is not something living creatures should endure. The reason why dolphin slaughtering garners such public outrage is because animals of a certain intelligence threshold are deemed to be capable of more complex interaction and thought process, so the idea of forcing suffering and pain onto them is that much more disgusting and closer to human suffering.

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This is a good point. This point will always be debatable because it is more of about ethics and philosophy than being a fact.

It's the reason why we experiment on lab rats and not people, and why you feel differently about stepping on an ant vs. seeing a dog or person run over by a car. It's intangible and subjective but still quite real and I think a general consensus reality exists among people who are opposed to dolphin slaughtering, whaling, the poaching of apes, inhumane farming, etc. such that they're able to agree on this.
On the other side of the argument are those who just see animals like bricks or wood, something else to be used, discarded, whatever.

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I read a very good book about what it is to be human. I have it at home. It debated what it is to be human and how humans have alway throughout time tried to find reasons to justify their "unique" place on earth. That many reasons that humans came up with, e.g. Apes have no language. Under scientific analysis through the years it was found to be untrue(apes have a form of communication, i.e. language). The point is that even if you define humanity other creature would overlap as well and why do we not give them the same rights as us. Moreover some humans would would not qualify under the definition as well e.g. the mentally retarded, fetuses. You are right that the feeling is intangible and subjective. I do not think people do enough thinking on the subject though. It is left as this idea and never explored and easily hijacked by emotions. It bugs me because sometimes debate isn't even possible. Whether some don't have a grasp on logic and ethics or just haven't thought deeply about their reasons or really don't want to face some extremely tough questions.

One last thing, I don't think all who are opposed to say the dolphin hunt have the same motivations or ideals. They may be united under this topic but within the group there would be those who are against all animal killing, or be vegans for example. There are moderates and extremists. Sometimes moderates defend the extreme behavior. Which always putts me off.

By the way great post.

Good points lately.
It reminds on the mentioned ape case, because I have friends, who are very much into these ape researches, and are directly related to a Center in Ohio, for example, and inform me about all the ups and downs of the story, plus latest news in terms of communicating with them, or also, them with us. I cannot post all the wonderfull articles here, that I receive, and are parts of some books that will come out next.
I am also very closely related to P. Gabriel, who for long also supports these researches.

What all this has in common with whale researches for long, is, animals also are beings with the right to live and the right to be understood and been treated with respect. There have been lots of researches also on dolphins, to touch only those animals, that are in talk here now. In all cases we learned a lot, also about senses, that for long were thought to be primtive, but are in fact often even much superior to ours.
I wish to underline, that I did not say, that these animals or anyone is really superior to any other one, just the way some are equipped with special remarkable functions, which differs according to life circumstances.
In all cases, we, as humans also learned that there might be something within ourselves, that has been underrated, or underdevelopped, or can very well be something, that we should and also could learn. For example via comunicating with such species more in their own language, which we would have to accept and learn, or at least find bridges for better understandings. This can be a very creative process and be of benefit for both sides even. Not to mention the exciting/excited reactions of for example neurologists, to mention only one part, the mirror neurons. . .

One does not even need to touch ethics and the like for this. Every pet owner knows, what I am talking about.

And one of the reactions towards whaling and dolphin slaughter stems from this knowledge and engagement.

The simple fact, that such very beneficial and even particularly human friendly animals are treated this way, make our hair stand up, we already have communicated with them, we already accepted them for feeling and respected beings, even benefitted from this, for example. This has far less to do with cute or Bambi-effect, as many wish to see. It may well be so for some, but thats of lesser importance for the whole issue as often blown up.

Europe (EU) officially wishes to unite against such downgradings of these (and other animals in general too, I hope) animals, as is public knowledge here already, to show the direction, not only here. I can post the article on request.

This has a lot to do with the present change in the idea of humans being "superior" in general. It has to do with the growing consciousness of all beings being a part of the whole, which comes closer and closer to the buddhist thinking, for example.

Native indians even regarded animals as guiding spirits! With the effect, that even if you had to hunt and eat etc, them, you had to thank them for giving themselves for this reason. And the several older shrines in Japan speak the very same language even!
You can see one on the whale waggon video thread, in a former whaling village, by the way.
So, if anyone wishes to talk about tradition, then please include this point!Otherwise its pure nonsense.

If the respect towards animals in general has sunken down to treat them as pure "food" and material accordingly, the same people will soon do so with humans as well, as we know from our german past, where underdogged humans were hold like animals and killed in the same spirit.

On this point the war memories are very well painfull, but necessary to face, for example the use of the sword or scientific research(!) on them, even on children etc., (for which we Germans are also very guilty, and know this, thus warn!) to mention only some.

Its by far not far from the point at all, in contrary.

Thus it is important to see the whole picture, which cannot be repeated often enough.

By the way, its interesting, how apes are treated in Japan (and there are many!), that would be an entirely extra chapter. I have seen many (good!) places myself and would love to know more about this, particularly, since coming from China, an ape even has its very special place in the mythology, a very high one indeed! No traditional opera in China without this one! From being a sacret fool to a real wise one.

In the traditional folk mask repertoire in Japan it is as well present and often played out.
And not only as a silly one, be sure!

No one would think about slaughtering an ape the way other animals are slaughtered these days, I suppose. . .It has to do with them being so close to us genetically too, but isn't it up to us to see, that many other animals are also close in their ways, no matter, how they look like?
And that it would be better to learn from them and cope?

I am also a wolf lover, by the way, who also has been treated wrongly for long, because if he hunts, he does it for the very same reasons as every other animal, no exception, and it is known by now once more, that wolfs are great with humans, even love us, except those that hit them for money, for example! Well, who would then, not even humans other humans, thus, can you blame them?
They have become our beloved dogs in the long run, and surely because they liked to accompany humans already in early times, despite all bad later devil-like projections(mostly scapegoated from the christians, actually, pure rubbish!).

No ancient (!) Rome without their wolves, as only one example. . .could they be honoured any higher?

I often wonder, how people can forget all this.

I'm at a loss with what to do. . . why can't the correct theme be maintained? Chi65 san, I know you put a lot into that post, and the general direction of much of what you are saying, if not almost all of it, is a very important thing to meditate over, however this thread is about just as the title says...and that's it.

We are not talking about animals, animal rights, actually, but about the degree of animal 'cruelity' in Japan...period. While this is not something like the Serious Discussion area, even, there is the guidline that demands that within a certain range....we have to stay on-topic. I'm at a loss what to do; and that troubles me.

Good bye, if thats also too difficult to understand.
No further posts.

Goldiegirl said:

I'll say this about pet food in Japan, you can get it at every convenience store and my cats absolutely go crazy for the canned fish cat food.

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You are very welcome GG and I'm sure quite a few of us would chip in..

Maybe we should start a donation thread?

We feed our Cat IAMS brand as it has all the good stuff, or so they say in it.. Only dried stuff, although today we were naughty and she had some canned tuna..

What she does love is the 2cm Japanese dried whole fish, usually used to make Miso soup..

But definitely, ARK is a very legitimate Org.

Kyoto Returnee said:

WOW!!!
That changes things a little;-)
Seriously Tokis, honestly, don't take it all so personally.
Yes, their are many who would love to give the Taiji dolphin killers a fist or two, definitely I would and I know you would appreciate that as I am a man, and other's who side with them and give them a big good day, keep up the good work (not me)
It's a case of what each individual perceives to be the truth.
I agree with Chi on the artists front.. Imagine if an artist was to paint pictures of the actual killings what people would then think?
You've made my day on the male front of things as not many understand us in trying times

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Thanks Kyoto .

I'm really not taking things personally, but it bothers me when people resort to personal attacks or say sexist things in debates- it lowers the general quality of the conversation overall.

Anyhoo.

I have never said i do not find the dolphin kill cruel, like a lot of other things in life, i don't doubt that cruelty happens.
But at the start of the thread, i stated that i don't find anything cruel with dolphin killing as long as they are not killed in a cruel manner or are endangered.
After doing a quick search early on, it became evident that old cruel methods of dolphin killing (like the slitting of the animals throats) had been made illegal by the Japanese government. The accepted and legal method of dolphin killing is the pin method, which kills the dolphin within seconds and does not cause excessive suffering etc- this in my opinion is a humane method of slaughter, and so i agree with this method.
However unfortunately, the broken record-like preachings of some others here seem to continuously say "dolphin killing is cruel, dolphin killing is cruel, dolphin killing is cruel" with for the most part little or no evidence of being offered in this thread that illegal cruel methods of killing dolphins are the norm.
My point is, is that i disagree with the illegal cruel methods, but i do agree with the pin method- there is nothing inhumane about it, do you not agree?
I don't know how you guys can expect things to get better for dolphins when you label all people who kill dolphins as cruel, even though some do make good efforts to kill the dolphins in a humane manner. You are certainly not encouraging these certain people to continue making an effort to kill dolphins in a humane manner when you tarnish them all with the same cruel brush. Things cannot turn around for the better until you start encouraging better behavior (even if its still not completely ideal). Do you not agree with this?

If society is to improve, both in Japan and in Europe, we need to accept that people kill animals; having taken this into consideration, we need to fight for better/more humane methods of killing animals instead of just trying to abolish the killing of animals-which in an ideal animal world may be good, its not realistic to expect people in the humane to stop killing animals, so we might as well put our energies to more realistic causes like the fighting for better treatment and slaughter methods of animals etc.

Throughout this thread this has been my point and aims- if you read back through my posts from the start to end, you will see this.

I think too that no one here ever said that killing animals for food was cruel, it's the manner. You can choose to believe words over actual photographic proof.

Goldiegirl said:

I think too that no one here ever said that killing animals for food was cruel, it's the manner. You can choose to believe words over actual photographic proof.

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You have refused to comment on what exactly was so cruel in Chi's original video- the dolphins were killed in a selective, organised, calm manner using methods which are accepted by the Japanese government and others i.e. the pin method, as being humane.
Do you think that a method of killing, which kills the animal in seconds and does not cause excessive suffering etc, is a method of cruel manner? Or are you going to avoid answering this question again?

bakaKanadajin said:

To anyone who says 'show me the videos', rather than SPOONFEED YOU and HOLD YOUR HAND, I invite you to do a simple websearch for videos of the Japanese dolphin slaughter.

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Firstly, please calm down, there is no need to "shout".

Secondly, I am not expecting anyone to "hold my hand" or "spoon feed" me etc. What i do expect though, is that when people openly disagree with something someone is saying on a subject such as this, they need to back up their confident disagreements with evidence. It is not up to me to defend opposing people's opinions, people need to defend their own point of view- by asking for people to show video's/proof of their rantings, that is all i am doing (and it is not an unreasonable expectation to expect intelligent, mature adults to do this) .

Do you not think that people should come up with proof/evidence/facts for their own opinions?
I've come up with such stuff for my own (its even been unintentionally given to me at times in this thread).

bakaKanadajin said:

As one previous poster aptly pointed out, the act of closing your eyes or failing to notice does not mean a thing has ceased to exist. This kind of semantic posturing is so juvenille, it's like we're in class arguing about a topic and then we've got these uppity, cafe latte-sipping types whose idea of an intelligent starting point is 'does the textbook even exist in the first place?'. I mean if that's the level you wanna bring it to then heck why even get out of bed in the morning?

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I've never denied that cruelty exists but my main disagreement with the opposing side is that not all dolphin killing is cruel, since humane methods do exist (and are encouraged by the law). Its you who are closing your eye's by refusing to admit that humane methods of killing do exist and are used and encouraged with the killing of dolphins.
You are hypocritical in accusing me of lowering the maturity of the thread when you yourself resort to personal insults- so don't try to lecture me on these things. If you want a mature debate, then why not set an example yourself?

bakaKanadajin said:

Furthermore, while there are always going to be exceptions to the rule I think most rational people are able to decipher which section or part of a thing we are arguing about at the onset of the discussion.

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You made no such mentioning of such "exceptions" in your original post, if anything your post suggests that you find the entire western slaughterhouse/meat eating industry inhumane, i quote;

bakaKanadajin said:

Your argument about all animals being equal is correct in principle. I don't support the meat industry and Western style slaughterhouses anymore than I support this dolphin hunt; both methods are cruel and it's horrible seeing any living creature suffer.

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You have made clear that you are against the killing of dolphins full stop. You then compare your dislike of dolphin killing to that of western style slaughterhouses, making it pretty clear you are completely against them too. How can you blame me then for assuming this to be your total opinion (while now you say some of the western style slaughterhouses are cruel and others are not, in comparison to your original statements of the western style slaughterhouses all being cruel)?

bakaKanadajin said:

Clearly, small organically run farms, mom and pops establishments, places where Halal or perhaps even Kosher methods are endorsed/enforced, etc., and all other exceptions to the rule where abuse does not take place, are not the targets of either this discussion or the non-profit groups which seek to change modern farming methods. What this discussion is moreso concerned with is the standardized, 'efficient', cost-effective method of meat production which is utilized by most modern and professional (read: max profit, quality less of an issue, animal treatment even less of an issue) slaughterhouses. Herein lies the issue of animal treatment and it's still a large enough problem, as evidenced by this latest discovery of animal abuse in the US, to warrant action or at the very least some discussion.

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This is more or less just what i said in referral to your original post, i quote;

Also, not all slaughterhouses kill their animals in a cruel/inhumane manner. The massive industrial style ones tend to not take as much care as they should do in killing animals, and this ends up with the animals suffering.
However. This does not mean that all slaughterhouses kill animals badly- i have been inside smaller scale slaughterhouses and i was satisfied with the ways animals were being killed (all took a few moments/seconds to die).

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So i assume we are in agreement there.

bakaKanadajin said:

There are many parallels between what went on at that slaughterhouse and what goes on during these dolphin hunts, and this is the common link. Unnecessary suffering, pain, abuse, etc., is not something living creatures should endure.

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So how more cruelty do you honestly believe is rife amongst dolphin killing and do you support the killing of dolphins if they are killed in a humane manner?

bakaKanadajin said:

The reason why dolphin slaughtering garners such public outrage is because animals of a certain intelligence threshold are deemed to be capable of more complex interaction and thought process, so the idea of forcing suffering and pain onto them is that much more disgusting and closer to human suffering.

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So are you one of these people who value dolphins more because of their intelligence? Do you count yourself in this public you speak of- honestly?

bakaKanadajin said:

It's the reason why we experiment on lab rats and not people, and why you feel differently about stepping on an ant vs. seeing a dog or person run over by a car. It's intangible and subjective but still quite real and I think a general consensus reality exists among people who are opposed to dolphin slaughtering, whaling, the poaching of apes, inhumane farming, etc. such that they're able to agree on this.
On the other side of the argument are those who just see animals like bricks or wood, something else to be used, discarded, whatever.

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As stated numerous times before, i personally feel that all animals should be treated equally. I disagree with those who believe that certain animals should be given higher/special treatment because they are deemed more intelligent by the human masses or some such similar thing.

I think that farm animals in particular should get better treatment on the whole, because many of the worst treated semi-domesticated tend to only be so because people do not personally value them highly (for example chickens, turkeys and ducks).

What happened?! Why do I get the feeling that people simple do not read to the heart at times of emotional excitement?

In Japan is correct, but cruelty to animals in general, and the dolphin matter has been beaten to death already. I can understand the emotional need to respond, without the fulfillment of which there remains a certain stress of anticipation, but I really wish you could have let that rest Tokis chan....again, I'm at a loss...what to do.




ps. if I may add here, we do know that the whole whaling/dolphin sub-forum is temporaily shut down, so let us keep that in mind in guiding our efforts to stay on topic here, and not dwell on what no longer need be beaten...please.

Mars Man said:

ps. if I may add here, we do know that the whole whaling/dolphin sub-forum is temporaily shut down, so let us keep that in mind in guiding our efforts to stay on topic here, and not dwell on what no longer need be beaten...please.

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That's what the problem is..

If they shut down the thread, things ultimately move to other's as we are now discovering. What was the point of closing it down and why the need to respond to a little word of off topic?

Well this thread is about animal cruelty in Japan. It doesn't seem to be that bad. Maybe the biggest issue of "animal cruelty" that gets people going is the Taiji dolphin hunt.

I am not an expert in killing animals. I don't really know what would be the most effective way to kill dolphins while avoid being called cruel. I would like to know what alot of you think would be the best way besides saying the dolphins shouldn't be killed at all.

I think Tokis has a point that in practice the pin method might be the best way. Sure it may not be 100% effective in practice because it is not done under controlled circumstances. I think it would be difficult with any method and any animal to be 100% effective all the time without any incidences of animals suffering.

I know people say just watch the videos. Everybody will react differently. Still watching something illicits a visceral reaction. Which may not be rational. That is the point anyway of animal activists showing these videos. It is an extremely effective way to garner sympathy. This is fine. If it benefits animals in the long run fine. Most people tend to irrational alot of the time. There is an exmaple of this. Parents when asked whether they would let their child play at Jane's house, whose father keeps several guns around the house or go swim in Jack's house's pool. Invariably parents say Jack's house. Statistically speaking children are many, many more times more likely to drown in a pool then be shot by a gun in someone's house. Yet it is the image of being shot, how horrible and messy and bloody it is that leads parents to think they made the most logical and rational decision, when in fact it was not. In fact logic or rational did not dictate their decision.

Tokis-Phoenix said:

Firstly, please calm down, there is no need to "shout".

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Yea.. I'll do what I want, thanks. A couple of caps aren't going to hurt anyone.

Secondly, I am not expecting anyone to "hold my hand" or "spoon feed" me etc. What i do expect though, is that when people openly disagree with something someone is saying on a subject such as this...Do you not think that people should come up with proof/evidence/facts for their own opinions?

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If you're expecting people to go rooting through YouTube to present you with readily available material, then yes, you're kinda asking to be spoonfed. But here you go.

[Videos no longer available]

... since humane methods do exist (and are encouraged by the law).

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Anyone who relies on what official governing bodies 'encourage' and report in this day and age and then pins that as the truth needs to increase the power of their critical eye a little bit. The absurdity of this statement extends beyond discussions of animal cruelty.

You are hypocritical in accusing me of lowering the maturity of the thread when you yourself resort to personal insults- so don't try to lecture me on these things. If you want a mature debate, then why not set an example yourself?

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You failed to pick up on the idea here, which is that 'show me or it doesn't exist' arguments are limited in scope, one of the main reasons why science is an incomplete field and previous so-called 'primitive' societies were in reality quite advanced because of a more wholistic approach. Besides, I was intentional in not naming anyone or quoting anyone in particular.

You made no such mentioning of such "exceptions" in your original post, if anything your post suggests that you find the entire western slaughterhouse/meat eating industry inhumane, i quote;

bakaKanadajin said:

Your argument about all animals being equal is correct in principle. I don't support the meat industry and Western style slaughterhouses anymore than I support this dolphin hunt; both methods are cruel and it's horrible seeing any living creature suffer.

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Does a place where Halal-style, Kosher, organic, independent, or otherwise non-violent methods of farming take place sound to you like the kind of slaughterhouses we are currently discussing and some members here are opposed to?

I think everyone but yourself caught the idea that whatever nomenclature you want to use, we are talking about any farming operation where cruelty and improper welfare conditions allegedly exist. Most of these are going to be your average non-speciality farms where standardized practices are employed. I'll even use the word allegedly here to be safe, but even beyond the most recent incidents in California, video evidence and first-hand reports exist confirming the allegations.

No I won't provide that here for you, the books are in the library. For a recently published entry-level read, please start with 'The Omnivores Dilemma'.

So how more cruelty do you honestly believe is rife amongst dolphin killing and do you support the killing of dolphins if they are killed in a humane manner?

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I think the videos evidence quite clearly how common the dolphin slaughtering and acts of cruelty are. Another video came up in my search which occurs in Denmark, and I found an article talking about the illegal dolphin meat trade in Peru. Illegal trades are usually not known for their humane touch. So this isn't even limited to Japan.

I had a really hard time finding any articles or video evidence of your humane 'pinning' method.

Unnecessary killing is also regarded as cruel in principle, no matter how humane it's done. This is why capital punishment is a hot topic, and why Japan is under fire for doing this, regardless of the methods. Obviously, the way Japan does it isn't helping their cause.

So are you one of these people who value dolphins more because of their intelligence? Do you count yourself in this public you speak of- honestly?

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I value all life, but as I said before, there's an intangible but obvious difference between ants and dolphins. I'm not sure why this is so hard to get your head around. And this doesn't mean I value them more than farm animals either, I believe I was clear about my opposition to inhumane farming practices.

otoko said:

I know people say just watch the videos. Everybody will react differently. Still watching something illicits a visceral reaction. Which may not be rational. That is the point anyway of animal activists showing these videos. It is an extremely effective way to garner sympathy. This is fine. If it benefits animals in the long run fine. Most people tend to irrational alot of the time. There is an exmaple of this. Parents when asked whether they would let their child play at Jane's house, whose father keeps several guns around the house or go swim in Jack's house's pool. Invariably parents say Jack's house. Statistically speaking children are many, many more times more likely to drown in a pool then be shot by a gun in someone's house. Yet it is the image of being shot, how horrible and messy and bloody it is that leads parents to think they made the most logical and rational decision, when in fact it was not. In fact logic or rational did not dictate their decision.

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otoko this is a really good point. The reason I don't agree 100% is because often this insular barrier which privileges us from not having to witness certain atrocities is the very thing that permits it to continue. It's the reason why Vietnam was such a pivotal war for the American psyche and why propaganda is so huge.

I think showing the videos in cases such as this, as well as other situations where cruelty takes place, and also in places where people need to be aware of the facts such as jurors in the courts or what have you, is warranted. Otherwise we really fall prey to removing ourselves and becoming overly-objective. Granted, anyone can use the media to their advantage but I think that's a given, bias is completely unavoidable. But leaving people with the full facts laid bare is better than having them decide based on words alone.

4. STAY ON TOPIC

Avoid posting messages that are out of context or irrelevant to a topic. While we encourage your participation, such posts will either be moved to another forum or deleted in order to ensure a thread's consistency. If you do want to write a post that is too off topic you can always start a new thread.

Those of us on the JREF team, including, of course the very owners of the site, do make an effort to keep a certain degree of consistency, and organization to the flow of linguistic exchanges--it has to be this way.

Any member has the right to challenge any action taken by those of us who are not administrators, to the administration; AdminJP being the top. I personally feel that to a sufficient and considered degree, all membership should be informed of as much of what is going on as fair and within operation bounds--transparency.

Here, on this thread, I am presently dealing with off-topicness and unnecessary overstatement of a certain small portion of the whole concept presented in the OP. If any disagree with my understanding (take on the matter) and wish to challenge my actions, please do so without fear of reproach.

I do have the authority to delete posts which I deem are off-topic, but strongly wish as much as possible to encourage, by my statements, posters to edit their own posts so as to bring them back on topic. I do feel discouraged, when in the course of my duties, I find such lack of response to stay on topic...especially when the straying is repetitive--as has been on this very thread, as this very post, even. (which is simply a due result, due to that going off yet again)

Anyone participating here could have opened a thread in Serious Discussions asking the question, 'What does it mean when we say 'cruelty to animals' or even, 'What do we see as cruel' or 'Animal rights.' Therefore nobody should expect to have much of a case for challenging the understanding that this thread has gone off-topic too often, as the OP title is clear enough on in the first two questions, and follow up examples.

We on the staff here at JREF, for the purpose of order as mentioned in the second paragraph of this post, beyond a certain limit marked by the common state of being human (and I am speaking on behalf of the team here, through my own take of things), will not allow topics to spread when such topic areas have been set aside to cool down. Again, challenges to that MUST be taken to the administration; period!

While I am very tempted to close this thread too, I (at least) will not. I will leave it open as an expression of trust. A trust that those who afterwards post here, will stay on topic and no longer beat the dolphin issue into the dust--it has been discussed enough.

Guys, I'm sitting here late evening thinking..

OK.. Some think the Taiji slaughter is cruel (Me included), otherr's do not.

What I was pointing to more when I started the thread was general
cruelty..

I always found that dressing dogs in fancy human style clothing and leaving them tied up on a short lead all day is very cruel..

Just as cruel, (In my opinion only), is leaving dogs locked in a small roomed houses or apartments all day which I believe is common in Japan, obviously due to the lack of people owning a garden connected to their abode..

I can't really see any problems tallking about Japanese related cruelty, whales, dolphins, etc., but like I said, it was originally aimed more at doemstic style of pets in Japan.

It could be a culture shock compared to Australia where we are taught to have decent gardens when owning a dog if you get my drift..

Kyoto Returnee said:

Just as cruel, (In my opinion only), is leaving dogs locked in a small roomed houses or apartments all day which I believe is common in Japan, obviously due to the lack of people owning a garden connected to their abode..

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I think this is the reason why a lot of people have small dogs.

If the dog is a medium size or a large size dog, then I agree that it is cruel to keep them inside the house all day.

Mars Man said:

While I am very tempted to close this thread too, I (at least) will not. I will leave it open as an expression of trust. A trust that those who afterwards post here, will stay on topic and no longer beat the dolphin issue into the dust--it has been discussed enough.

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You are far more trusting than I have become. I will start handing out infractions without warnings as of the time of this post for being off-topic. It's getting to the point that I don't even remember what it's like to have a thread staying on topic anymore.