英語がちょっと分かるようになりました。

healer · 15 Nov 2019

Toritoribe said:
There is no problem to use google search for checking whether an expression is really used or not

I was hoping and trying to find something like ～てもらう - Example sentences - JLPT N4 grammar or those like what you searched for me from the corpus. Anyway I have to make do with I can get. Thanks for your advice!

Toritoribe said:
translate according to this interpretation

I'm not too sure what you meant.

The original English text is "And if you try that, I think you'll find that you agree." Anyway I'm trying the analyse the sentence in terms of the grammar as to how it comes to the meaning but I fail miserably. It's definitely beyond me. I guess "I think you'll find that you agree" corresponds to 分かってもらえるでしょう and "And if you try that" to お試し頂けたら. I'm wondering why お試し isn't simply 試し and いただく is necessary while てもらう already indicates the receiving of benefit, unless we're talking about two actions here.

bentenmusume · 15 Nov 2019

healer said:
親の工夫次第で分かってもらえることを実感 is beyond me. If you're happy please let me have your translation.
Even if you give me the translation I might not necessarily be able to work out how the sentence structured grammatically for the meaning.

Note that the context is a site talking about parenting methods, specifically the idea of encouraging children to think for themselves rather than just scolding them and giving commands. This specific bit is from the headline:

「親の工夫次第で分かってもらえることを実感！」ママさんからのご報告

So it's quoting/summarizing a mother's response to trying out this method for herself:

Report from a mother: "I experienced firsthand how you can get a child to understand with just a little ingenuity on the parent's part!"

I've tried to put it into natural English to convey the meaning in an intelligible fashion, but if you still can't see how to get this from the Japanese, feel free to ask more question.

healer said:
お試し頂けたら. I'm wondering why お試し isn't simply 試し and いただく is necessary while てもらう already indicates the receiving of benefit, unless we're talking about two actions here.

お試しいただく is a humble form. "If you try it..." is an idiomatic English translation, but remember that the subject of humble verbs is the speaker, so it literally means "If we receive the favor of your trying it..."

And yes, there are two "actions" being referenced here: the trying (試す) and the understanding (もらえる).

Toritoribe · 16 Nov 2019

healer said:
I'm not too sure what you meant.

The original English text is "And if you try that, I think you'll find that you agree." Anyway I'm trying the analyse the sentence in terms of the grammar as to how it comes to the meaning but I fail miserably.

I said that another interpretation could be possible for that sentence in another context. It can mean （あなたのお客様に我が社の製品を）お試し頂けたら、（あなたはあなたのお客様に我が社の製品の良さを）分かってもらえるでしょう "if your customers/guests try it(= our facilities/system), I think they (= your customers/guests) will find they agree (that it's worth to use it)". The recipient of the favor is the addressee "you" here, and the speaker is talking from the addressee's view point. How important the context is in Japanese, isn't it?

healer said:
I'm wondering why お試し isn't simply 試し and いただく is necessary while てもらう already indicates the receiving of benefit, unless we're talking about two actions here.

As jt_-san wrote, "お + masu stem of verbs + いただく" is a humble form, similar to "お + masu stem of verbs + になる" is a polite form. The agent is indicated by に in this expression (e.g. お客様にお試しいただく).

healer · 17 Nov 2019

bentenmusume said:
Report from a mother: "I experienced firsthand how you can get a child to understand with just a little ingenuity on the parent's part!"

Thanks for the translation to the natural English. I don't think I could have done the same

healer · 17 Nov 2019

Toritoribe said:
the subject of 試す and 分かる can be third person(someone else other than the speaker "I/we" and the addressee "you")

I had always supposed for 〜てもらう sentence the subject has to be the third person or the second person. Is that what you were saying?

Toritoribe said:
"お + masu stem of verbs + いただく" is a humble form, similar to "お + masu stem of verbs + になる" is a polite form.

I had supposed "お + masu stem of verbs + になる" is an honorific form.
Does "お + masu stem of verbs + いただく" apply to all verbs for converting to humble form?
What about お or ご + the Polite Form + する (Instead of (し)ます)? I have come across it on The Honorific Form, the Humble Form, and the Polite Form

Toritoribe · 17 Nov 2019

healer said:
I had always supposed for 〜てもらう sentence the subject has to be the third person or the second person. Is that what you were saying?

Again, "subject" is ambiguous. "The subject of 〜てもらう sentence" is the recipient of the favor, but you must refer to the subject of the action (試す or 分かる), i.e., the agent (動作主) by "subject".

As for your question, I wrote;

the subject of 試す and 分かる can be third person(someone else other than the speaker "I/we" and the addressee "you") in お試し頂けたら分かってもらえるでしょう

, thus, what I said is another interpretation that the agent/the subject of 試す and 分かる is not second person "you" can be possible in that sentence.

healer said:
I had supposed "お + masu stem of verbs + になる" is an honorific form.

Yes, "respectful" or "honorific" is more appropriate.

healer said:
Does "お + masu stem of verbs + いただく" apply to all verbs for converting to humble form?

Yes, as same as "お + masu stem of verbs + になる".

healer said:
What about お or ご + the Polite Form + する (Instead of (し)ます)? I have come across it on The Honorific Form, the Humble Form, and the Polite Form

I don't think "polite form" is an appropriate term, since that form (e.g. 待ち, 教え, 泳ぎ or stem of -suru verbs) is not "polite form" . It should be "-masu stem", i-form, 連用形 etc.

The direction of respect is different. The respect is towards the agent in "お + masu stem of verbs + いただく" (or "ご + stem of -suru verbs + いただく"), while it's from the agent towards second or third person in "お + masu stem of verbs + する" (or "ご + stem of -suru verbs + する"). Thus, the agent must be the speaker or their in-group member(s) in "お + masu stem of verbs + する".

明日までお待ちいたしております。(いたす is a humble verb of する)
The agent(the one who waits) is the speaker, and respect is from the agent(= the speaker) to the addressee "you".

明日までお待ちいただきます。
The agent(the one who waits) is the addressee "you", and respect is from the speaker to the agent (= the addressee "you").

兄が街をご案内します。
The agent(the one who guides) is the speaker's brother, and respect is from the speaker to the addressee "you".

昨日先方に(or から)ご回答いただきました。
The agent(the one who answered) is the other party (customer/client), and respect is from the speaker to the agent.

Notice that respect is from the speaker towards someone else in all expressions, after all.

healer · 18 Nov 2019

Toritoribe said:
Again, "subject" is ambiguous.

I apologize that I made the same mistake again. I was referring to that of the action. So you call that "the agent", don't you?

Toritoribe said:
I don't think "polite form" is an appropriate term

I agree with you. That is confusing calling them polite form. I simply copied and pasted that statement from the website but I knew what they were talking about seeing their examples. Textbooks I've come across usually call them masu stem or pre-masu form.

Toritoribe said:
明日までお待ちいたしております。

Is ております here the て-form to indicate continuing action or a state? A formal way of saying ~ている like what jt_-san said before.
Perhaps it is a humble language of いる?

What about 明日までお待ちしています instead using the formula of "お + masu stem of verbs + する"?
If this one is alright, what is the difference in usage between this and yours?

Toritoribe · 18 Nov 2019

healer said:
I was referring to that of the action. So you call that "the agent", don't you?

Yes.

healer said:
Is ております here the て-form to indicate continuing action or a state? A formal way of saying ~ている like what jt_-san said before.
Perhaps it is a humble language of いる?

That's right. It's the former "present progressive".

healer said:
What about 明日までお待ちしています instead using the formula of "お + masu stem of verbs + する"?

お待ちしています is simply the present progressive form of お待ちします, as I wrote above, just like "I wait for~" vs. "I'm waiting for~".

healer said:
If this one is alright, what is the difference in usage between this and yours?

お待ちいたしております。 is a humble form of お待ちしています, as you already wrote

healer · 18 Nov 2019

Toritoribe said:
お待ちいたしております。 is a humble form of お待ちしています, as you already wrote

I apologize. I can't follow.

According to the website, お待ちする is the humble form of 待つ. That was how I made up 明日までお待ちしています in response to your example of 明日までお待ちいたしております where you also described as a humble form.
I asked what the difference in usage is between them if mine is grammatically correct and is also a humble form.

Toritoribe said:
お待ちしています is simply the present progressive form of お待ちします, as I wrote above, just like "I wait for~" vs. "I'm waiting for~".

You said mine is a present progressive form, but is it a humble form or just an ordinary non-humble form?

Toritoribe · 18 Nov 2019

healer said:
According to the website, お待ちする is the humble form of 待つ. That was how I made up 明日までお待ちしています in response to your example of 明日までお待ちいたしております where you also described as a humble form.
I asked what the difference in usage is between them if mine is grammatically correct and is also a humble form.

待ちます
↓
humble form of the above: お待ちします
↓
present progressive form of the above: お待ちしています
↓
humble form of the above: お待ちいたしております
(I already wrote "いたす is a humble verb of する", and you already wrote "ております ... A formal way of saying ~ている ... it is a humble language of いる")

Thus, お待ちいたしております is more humble than お待ちしています.

healer said:
You said mine is a present progressive form, but is it a humble form or just an ordinary non-humble form?

I clearly wrote "お待ちしています is simply the present progressive form of お待ちします". Isn't it natural to interpret that the present progressive form of a humble form is also humble? For instance, いただきました, 差し上げませんでした or 拝見したいです are all humble even if they are in different tense or forms, right? An ordinary non-humble form is just 待っています, isn't it?

healer · 19 Nov 2019

Toritoribe said:
お待ちいたしております is more humble than お待ちしています

Thanks! Now I get it. I did see you wrote humble form somewhere but not everywhere, so I wasn't sure. I can never venture to imagine both are humble forms and one is humbler than the other unless you say explicitly.

Toritoribe said:
お待ちいたしております。 is a humble form of お待ちしています, as you already wrote

This quoted statement of yours threw me when you said one is a humble (not humbler) form of the other, it implies the other is not a humble form.

Anyway, I appreciate after all regardless.

Toritoribe · 19 Nov 2019

Well, I don't agree with you. If I wrote just "お待ちいたしております。 is a humble form", indeed you could misunderstand my explanation. But again, I clearly wrote お待ちいたしております。 is a humble form of お待ちしています, and this is a fact that ～いたしております is a humble form of ～しています whether the original expression (i.e. お待ちしています) is humble or not. お待ちいたしております。 is more humble as a result just because お待ちしています is humble. It seems to me that your interpretation/impression "it implies the other is not a humble form" is just from your lack of knowledge/being inexperienced that you didn't know "humble form of humble form" does exist.

healer · 19 Nov 2019

Yes that's true I didn't know "humble form of humble form" does exist. I didn't even expect there was such thing.

I do remember you mentioned different level of honorific terms and politeness though.

Toritoribe · 19 Nov 2019

healer said:
I do remember you mentioned different level of honorific terms and politeness though.

Yes, お待ちいたしております is indeed an example of "level of politeness".

healer · 19 Nov 2019

Correction:
I think I haven't heard of level of honorific terms.

Toritoribe · 19 Nov 2019

Difference between ~て下さい and ~て下さいませんか.

How would one translate the two constructions above? I understand both means "please" while negative questions are usually used for invitation. Could I say for the latter "Don't you want to ...?" I guess this is an indirect request which could be more polite.

jref.com

healer · 19 Nov 2019

Actually all the multi-level of politeness I learnt before today are all referring to the addressees. I didn't expect there is the same for the speaker.

Toritoribe · 20 Nov 2019

Notice that respect is from the speaker towards someone else in all expressions, after all.