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英語がちょっと分かるようになりました。

healer

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The above is from a textbook I’m reading translated as “I can understand English better now.”

Where is the meaning of “better” coming from?

I would have translated as “I can understand English a little now.”

Does ちょっと or ようになる cause it to imply that?
 

bentenmusume

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This is just a case where the textbook is trying to give a natural and idiomatic translation at the expense of a literal one.

It's just like in English, if you say you can understand something a little now, it implies that you didn't understand it at all before. Thus, you now understand it better than you used to.

But yes, your understanding of the literal meaning of the sentence is correct. There is nothing in the Japanese sentence that specifically makes a comparison.
 

Toritoribe

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I would have translated as “I can understand English a little now.”
Speaking strictly, ~ようになる means "to become", so more literal translation of the sentence is "I became able to understand English a little now". Thus, ようになりました gives a nuance of comparison "better" as a result.
 

Toritoribe

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Additional explanation;
The Japanese translation of "I can understand English a little now" is 今は英語がちょっと分かります. This Japanese sentence has almost the same meaning as 英語がちょっと分かるようになりました, as jt_-san explained. In this sentence, 今は is the key. (Incidentally, は is the contrastive marker here.) 英語がちょっと分かります doesn't have a nuance of comparison. Think about the difference between "I can understand English a little now" and "I can understand English a little". It's the same also in Japanese.
 

healer

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Thanks for your kindness!

You don't usually use the potential form of 分かる, do you?
英語がちょっと分かれります。
The above is translated completely different.
 

bentenmusume

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Correct. You generally do not see the potential form of 分かる. This is in part because, though not technically a potential form, 分かる itself already has an inherently potential connotation. (If you look at the usage of 分かる and a potential form like, say, できる, you can actually see many commonalities in terms of usage.)

You will see 分かる used in conjunction with potential auxiliary verbs (e.g. 分かってもらえる or the like) but this is obviously different from conjugating 分かる itself into the potential form.
 

bentenmusume

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You don't mind put this in a sentence for me. I haven't seen this combination being used.
I didn't elaborate because I didn't want to overwhelm you with a tangentially related point that is quite an involved topic in its own right.

Look up ~てくれる、~てもらう, and ~てあげる. This is a grammatical structure where verbs of giving/receiving are used as auxiliary verbs following the ~て form of a verb. (If you don't feel like you have a good handle on giving/receiving verbs in the first place, you probably want to study/review that first, before looking at the auxiliary verb structure.) If you have any questions after studying the topic, please feel free to come back and ask them here.
 

healer

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~てくれる、~てもらう, and ~てあげる
I think I know this quite well, but knowledge of grammar is absolutely inadequate. It has to go with real life examples. I need many more examples to help have grammar and words stick. One needs to learn and experience at the same time to get the maximum benefit. I had tried to Google “分かってもらえる in sentences” like what I would do in any language, but nothing came up. Never mind. It’s your prerogative not to do so. Thanks anyway.
 

bentenmusume

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I'm not trying to be rude, but I don't see how you could understand the 〜てもらう construction "quite well" and at the same time not be able to fathom how 分かってもらえる could function in a sentence.

Anyhow, here is an example that should be straightforward:
何回も説明しているけど、なかなか分かってもらえない。

Like I said, I wasn't withholding the example to be rude or difficult, I just thought it was getting beyond the scope of the discussion.

Sometimes your responses come off as somewhat confrontational (or perhaps I should say they come off as if you perceive that *I'm* being confrontational), but I assure you that isn't my intent at all.

Incidentally, just searching Google Japan for the phrase in question will probably give you more hits than adding the English word "sentences".
 

healer

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Thanks!

I find that when one doesn’t understand something it always helps with examples whether it’s language or some handicraft. Examples always help understand better. Learning grammar without examples is like reading a dictionary to learn new words.

That’s my experience anyway.
By the way I prefer search if possible for bilingual web sites which would be easier for me to understand.
Regards
 
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Toritoribe

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searching results in a corpus
次官さんには分かってもらえると信じていました。
その組成に大きく支配されることが分かってもらえたことと思う。
私がどれくらいショックだったかも、分かってもらえるかも知れないと思うから
いちいち解説付けないと分かってもらえないようなサブタイトル
口論しても、分かってもらえる相手ではなかった。
ドコモの人に言ったのですが分かってもらえませんでした
あなたの頑張りは分かってもらえないのでは?
違うものを食べたくなる心理って言ったら分かってもらえるかな。
我々観客が感じるそれと同じだと言えば分かってもらえようか。
ボクの考え方、分かってもらえるかな?

We can get countless results also in Google search...


As for the potential form of わかる, one of the reasons why it doesn't have the potential form is that わかる is non-volitional. Many non-volitional verbs don't have the potential form, either.
e.g.
×雨が降れる
×けがが治れる
×スマホが壊れられる
×崖から落ちられる
(The last example can be valid as an adversative passive.)
 

healer

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I don't see how you could understand the 〜てもらう construction "quite well" and at the same time not be able to fathom how 分かってもらえる could function in a sentence.
I believe I do understand how ~てもらう works. It means to have someone do myself or ourselves a favour as opposed to ~てくれる which means someone does me or us a favour probably without our or my asking. Sometimes I might not be quick at recognizing some grammar construction. That is why I would often like to have examples to increase my exposure which would in turn reinforce my understanding and my memory. It’s true I hadn’t come across ~てもらえる before, not in the textbooks I have read so far. A brief search on the Internet for the sentences I can’t find it either. I expect the syntax should be the same as ~てもらう. I guess ~てもらえる means having someone do me or us a favour so that I or we can receive something. By extrapolation, 分かってもらえる is having someone do me or us a favour so that I or we can receive the understanding of something (I or we can understand something).

Incidentally, just searching Google Japan for the phrase in question will probably give you more hits than adding the English word "sentences".
I have indeed tried searching for sentences that have 分かってもらえる on both google.com.au and google.co.jp. It doesn't bring up any sentence.
It would if I entered "分かる in sentences" or "てもらう in sentences", but not "分かってもらえる".
I suppose I just have to be satisfied with those of "てもらう in sentences".
 

joadbres

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I have indeed tried searching for sentences that have 分かってもらえる on both google.com.au and google.co.jp. It doesn't bring up any sentence.
It would if I entered "分かる in sentences" or "てもらう in sentences", but not "分かってもらえる".
I suppose I just have to be satisfied with those of "てもらう in sentences".
Using "in sentences" as a search term is ineffective. Instead, include the English translation of an important word in the sentence.

For example, in this case, if you do a search using the search terms 分かってもらえる and "understand", you will get much better results.
 

Toritoribe

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I guess ~てもらえる means having someone do me or us a favour so that I or we can receive something. By extrapolation, 分かってもらえる is having someone do me or us a favour so that I or we can receive the understanding of something (I or we can understand something).
Your understanding is wrong. The agent/doer is "someone" in ~てもらう, not the speaker "I" or "we", thus, the one who understands is someone in 分かってもらう, not the speaker. The speaker can receive a favor by someone's understanding in "分かってもらえる", i.e., it's not "I or we can understand something" but "I or we can receive a favor of someone's understanding something".

I have indeed tried searching for sentences that have 分かってもらえる on both google.com.au and google.co.jp. It doesn't bring up any sentence.
Really?
 

healer

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in this case, if you do a search using the search terms 分かってもらえる and "understand", you will get much better results.
I do 分かってもらえる many times no sentence would come up. No difference with 分かってもらえる and "understand" either. Please note that I'm not after grammar information but sentences that have 分かってもらえる in them.
 

healer

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Your understanding is wrong. The agent/doer is "someone" in ~てもらう, not the speaker "I" or "we"
私は友達に辞書を貸してもらいました。
I had a friend lend me a book.
私は友達に単語を説明してもらいました。
I had a friend explain to me a word.
私は友達に単語を分かってもらいました。
I had a friend understand a word.
私は友達に単語を分かってもらえました。
I had a friend be able to understand a word.

Yes, with sentences I made up above if they're grammatically correct I have found that I was wrong with 分かってもらう.

I want to search for sentences that have "分かってもらえる" in them, not grammar info, like what you did for me above.
searching results in a corpus
 

Toritoribe

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I want to search for sentences that have "分かってもらえる" in them, not grammar info, like what you did for me above.
Didn't you read even just 10 results in the first page of the searching results? Indeed, only the first three links are "grammar info", but the rest are exactly "sentences that have 分かってもらえる".

4th
自分の伝え方が不十分だから分かってもらえないんだ

5th
どんなにあり得ない事かを君に分かってもらえると思った

6th
お試し頂けたら分かってもらえるでしょう

7th
「IT苦手」な経営層にも分かってもらえる

8th
やってみたら分かってもらえる!

9th
親の工夫次第で分かってもらえることを実感!

10th
どうしたら分かってもらえるでしょうか

Do I have to pick up sentences that have 分かってもらえる also from the next pages?
 

joadbres

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I do 分かってもらえる many times no sentence would come up. No difference with 分かってもらえる and "understand" either. Please note that I'm not after grammar information but sentences that have 分かってもらえる in them.
Yes, I understand what you want.

I get many example sentences when I do that search. Perhaps your search settings are unusual. I recommend checking your search settings, including the default language.
 

healer

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Do I have to pick up sentences that have 分かってもらえる also from the next pages?
Thank for your patience and not giving up on me! Toritoribe-san. You have given plenty. Thank you!

I did give a glance. My Japanese language is no good and I didn't spot it in the summaries there. I apologize! That's why at this stage I still try to use English websites. Getting info from the Internet sometimes could get overwhelmed. I don't usually pursue if I don't see it in the summary.

お試し頂けたら分かってもらえるでしょう
Where there is no subject specified in a 〜てもらう sentence, it would be "you", wouldn't it?
Is it alright to use 頂けた which is a humble language?

親の工夫次第で分かってもらえることを実感!
I'm not quite sure of this one.
What do 工夫 and 次第 here mean? 工夫 is "scheming" etc and 次第 is "in accordance with" etc.
実感 is a noun. Don't we need a verb after を? I expect it to be 実感する. Perhaps we treat verbal noun differently in this case.
 

Toritoribe

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I did give a glance. My Japanese language is no good and I didn't spot it in the summaries there.
I got those example sentences just from the search result pages, not in each linked page. You can easily find them with using the "Find In Page" function, for instance.
google search.jpg


Where there is no subject specified in a 〜てもらう sentence, it would be "you", wouldn't it?
Which do you refer to by "subject", the subject of the sentence or the subject of 試す and 分かる? For instance, in the sentence 私は友達に単語を分かってもらえました。, the subject of the sentence is the speaker "I", and the subject of 分かる is "a friend", as you already translated. Thus, the term "subject" is ambiguous in these cases. That's why the terms "the agent/the one who understands" or "the recipient of the favor" are preferred in grammatical explanations.

Is it alright to use 頂けた which is a humble language?
If you are asking whether ~て頂ける can be used as a humble form of ~てもらう, yes.

What do 工夫 and 次第 here mean? 工夫 is "scheming" etc and 次第 is "in accordance with" etc.
工夫 and 次第 mean "ingenuity" and "depending on" there, respectively.

実感 is a noun. Don't we need a verb after を? I expect it to be 実感する. Perhaps we treat verbal noun differently in this case.
Those expressions are often used in a caption or title of article/chapter, or in the text of newspaper articles. Not only verbal nouns are used in this structure.
e.g.
台風が関東を直撃
被害は甚大
復旧が急務
 

healer

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I got those example sentences just from the search result pages, not in each linked page.
I was looking for some simple standalone sentences to help me understand better and strengthen my memory of using 〜てわかってもらえる. Certainly I shall look harder in the future. Thanks for your kindness.

Which do you refer to by "subject", the subject of the sentence or the subject of 試す and 分かる?
Sorry for my ambiguity. I was referring to the subject of 分かる.
Since it is a 〜てまらうsentence, the subject of 分かる I believe can't be the speaker, so it must be someone else.
I'm wondering how 頂けた can be used since it is a humble language. As I understand humble language is only used when referring to oneself.

工夫 and 次第 mean "ingenuity" and "depending on" there, respectively.
I've got 親の工夫次第で分かってもらえることを実感!translated by Google as "I realize that it will be understood by the parents!"
I suppose ことを実感 is "something one realizes".
親の工夫次第で分かってもらえる is having someone be able to understand parent's ingenuity ...? Where does "depending on" fit in?
I just can't get my head around this sentence. Could you please tell me what the whole sentence means? Thanks!
??I realize it can be understood depending on the parent's ingenuity.??
 

bentenmusume

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In 分かっていただけた (いただく is usually written in hiragana when used as an auxiliary) the subject of 分かる (i.e. the giver of the benefit) is the other person. The subject of いただく (i.e. the receiver of the benefit) is the speaker (or speaker's in-group). This is why the humble form is used.

The Google translation is completely wrong. It mistranslates who is doing the understanding (maybe you'll understand that better after my explanation above) and completely ignores the meaning of 〜工夫次第で.

Your own analysis is better than Google, but in your breakdown, you seem to be misunderstanding multiple points:

-ことを実感 doesn't mean "something one realizes". Note that it's ことを実感 (a verbal phrase that implies 実感しました or 実感しましょう or the like) not 実感すること (a noun phrase). Actually, "realize" isn't quite the right nuance for 実感, either. 実感 means to feel or experience something for yourself firsthand (i.e. instead of just hearing or reading about it).

-工夫次第*で*分かってもらえる doesn't mean "understand the parents' ingenuity" because 工夫 isn't the direct object here.

To put it in context a bit, it's almost certainly in the context of a parent of a young child talking about getting a kid to understand something. Care to take another shot at it?
 

Toritoribe

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I was looking for some simple standalone sentences to help me understand better and strengthen my memory of using 〜てわかってもらえる.
You wouldn't be able to get those kinds of examples from internet, at least just from simple search. There is no problem to use google search for checking whether an expression is really used or not, but I don't think it's a good idea to try translating a quoted single sentence without knowing the context. Since Japanese is a context-driven language, as you would already know, multipul interpretations are sometimes (or maybe often) possible. For instance, the speaker can be even the seller in これは友達に買ってもらった。, as I explained in your previous thread.

This is applied also to the site you used. You asked about 三席、古書傾ぐ店の女あるじのイメージが小説的でふと足をとめさせられる。古風で且つ新しく、謎めく世界は作者の抱きもつものであろうか。 in your previous post, but quoted sentences like that are often ambiguous in meaning even for skilled learners or native speakers without the context. You can think the example sentences used in textbooks are cautiously made (or chosen) for the purpose.

Sorry for my ambiguity. I was referring to the subject of 分かる.
Since it is a 〜てまらうsentence, the subject of 分かる I believe can't be the speaker, so it must be someone else.
I'm wondering how 頂けた can be used since it is a humble language. As I understand humble language is only used when referring to oneself.
This is a coincidence, but お試し頂けたら分かってもらえるでしょう is the Japanese translation of an English lecture. Here's the whole paragraph both in the original English and Japanese translation.


By the way, the subject of 試す and 分かる can be third person(someone else other than the speaker "I/we" and the addressee "you") in お試し頂けたら分かってもらえるでしょう, like another interpretation of これは友達に買ってもらった。. I think it's worth trying to translate according to this interpretation if you have time. (Hint: The speaker is talking about their facilities/system. The addressee is a company/hotel who has customers/guests.)

Where does "depending on" fit in?
次第 works as a suffix there. Examples are often helpful to understand the meaning/usage, as you repeatedly said.

しだい【次第】
4〔それによって決まる様子〕

努力次第で成功します
Whether you succeed or not depends on your effort.

お天気次第でどこへ行くか決めよう
We'll decide where to go after we see what the weather's like.

決めるのは君次第だ
It is up to you to decide./The decision rests with you.

 

healer

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Care to take another shot at it?
親の工夫次第で分かってもらえることを実感 is beyond me. If you're happy please let me have your translation.
Even if you give me the translation I might not necessarily be able to work out how the sentence structured grammatically for the meaning.

The subject of いただく (i.e. the receiver of the benefit) is the speaker (or speaker's in-group).
お試し頂けたら分かってもらえるでしょう where the original English version says "And if you try that, I think you’ll find that you agree."
I understand ~てもらう, in this case ~てもらえる already indicates the speaker receiving the benefit. I can't get my head around with てもらえる being there doing the same job.

Perhaps all these are beyond my level. Let it rest till I learn more and I will certainly come back on this when I get some clue.
 
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