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朝ご飯 + に?

thesuker

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Today I was practising with my friend saying what time we had breakfast, lunch and dinner, and also how often we had coffee, tea and such. Then my friend said

私は朝ご飯に茶を飲みます

The textbook says に is not necessary for parts of the day, but to be honest, we dont even know if 朝ご飯 can be used as such. Talking about it we also wondered if

朝ご飯に何を食べますか

would be a correct question, for the same reason.

ありがとう in advance for your time :)
 

Toritoribe

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朝ご飯に何を食べますか is correct. 私は朝ご飯にお茶を飲みます is acceptable, but it sounds like tea is a staple to me(in other words, 朝食にご飯 / パンを食べます has no problem). I would say 朝ご飯のときにお茶を飲みます or 朝、お茶を飲みます instead. (As you can see, 朝 is a part of the day, but 朝ご飯 is not.)
 
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thesuker

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ありがとう for the answer とりとべさん. The alternative sentences are going to be very helpful :) I havent quite understood what you mean by

but it sounds like tea is a staple to me

Do you mean the word tea in that context can be confused with the word staple? Or a figurative staple, joining in some way two parts of the phrase? Im still quite green, so please bear with me :p
 

Mike Cash

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ありがとう for the answer とりとべさん. The alternative sentences are going to be very helpful :) I havent quite understood what you mean by

but it sounds like tea is a staple to me

Do you mean the word tea in that context can be confused with the word staple? Or a figurative staple, joining in some way two parts of the phrase? Im still quite green, so please bear with me :p
"Staple" as in 主食, not the things you clip papers together with. Learning Japanese will also expand your English vocabulary.
 

thesuker

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Oh, first time I read 'staple' used with that meaning. So, I guess the difference lies in 朝ご飯 / 朝食. Does 朝ご飯 or 朝食 have some kind of connotation I'm not aware of?

Also, do you know of any books or webpages were I can find the subtle differences between kanjis with same or similar meanings?
 

Toritoribe

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朝ご飯 and 朝食 are the same. I used 朝食 just because to avoid using ご飯 repetitively (朝ご飯にご飯を食べます).
 

thesuker

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朝ご飯 and 朝食 are the same. I used 朝食 just because to avoid using ご飯 repetitively (朝ご飯にご飯を食べます)..
So, why in the phrase

私は朝ご飯にお茶を飲みます

you understand tea as been staple, and

朝食にご飯 / パンを食べます

has no problem? Is it because of the verb? Sorry if i'm been a bit insistant on the topic, but I like these kind of subtleties in languages :)
 

nekojita

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Similarly in English if you say "I have tea for breakfast", it sounds like you skip breakfast and just have a cup of tea - i.e. unless you're on some extreme diet it sound weird as tea by itself is not breakfast. "I have toast/eggs/cereal/(etc) for breakfast" works because those are staple breakfast foods.

Instead you'd say something like "I drink tea with/at breakfast" or "I have a cup of tea in the morning."
 

Toritoribe

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お茶 is your staple?? If so, there's no proble as same as 朝食にご飯を食べます. You don't live on tea, right?
 

Mike Cash

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朝ご飯 + に?

Consider:

I have xxx at breakfast.
I have xxx for breakfast.

The obvious difference is the prepositions. The not-so-obvious difference is that the preposition choice is driven by there being two different senses to the word "breakfast".

We manifest the distinction in different ways is what I'm getting at here.
 

thesuker

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Ok, I think I understood now. So, for example, considering that it's perfectly normal for people in Spain to have a coffee for breakfast and nothing else, I could say

朝ご飯にコーヒーを飲みます

or, better said,

朝ご飯のときにコーヒーを飲みます
 

Toritoribe

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朝ご飯のときにコーヒーを飲みます just says you drink coffee at breakfast, i.e., it's usually interpreted that you would eat something other than coffee.

I would say 朝はコーヒーしか飲みません。 or 朝はコーヒーを飲むだけで何も食べません。 for that case, since 朝ご飯にコーヒーを飲みます still sounds ambiguous (that's why I wrote 朝ご飯にお茶を飲みます is acceptable previously).
 

thesuker

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Is it posible to say

朝ご飯はコーヒーしか飲みません

To specify that you drink it at breakfast.
 

Mike Cash

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Is it posible to say

朝ご飯はコーヒーしか飲みません

To specify that you drink it at breakfast.
That would mean you drink only coffee at breakfast.

Try making the following:

Only I drink coffee at breakfast.
I only drink coffee at breakfast.
I drink only coffee at breakfast.
I drink coffee only at breakfast.
 

thesuker

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Edited it after some changes. This is what i came up with.

私のみは朝飯でコ-ヒ-を飲みます (taking a risk with this one, as I dont know if I can use のみ after 私, also changed に to で)
朝飯はコ-ヒ-をのみますしかない (reading a grammar book I just realized this is incorrect, asi it means 'one can only ...', so no idea)
朝飯はコ-ヒ-しか飲みません
私は朝飯のみでコ-ヒ-を飲みます (I read about のみ, not sure if using に/で is relevant, but from what I read で is used for ranges of time, so I'm guessing its a good choice for 朝飯)

Thanks for taking the time to help me :)
 
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Mike Cash

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Only I drink coffee at breakfast.
私だけが朝ご飯でコーヒーを飲みます。

I only drink coffee at breakfast.
私は朝ご飯にコーヒーを飲むだけです。

I drink only coffee at breakfast.
私は朝ご飯にコーヒーだけしか飲みません。

I drink coffee only at breakfast.
私は朝ご飯だけにしかコーヒーを飲みません。

There are other possible ways to phrase each, of course.
 

thesuker

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Only I drink coffee at breakfast.
私だけが朝ご飯でコーヒーを飲みます。

I only drink coffee at breakfast.
私は朝ご飯にコーヒーを飲むだけです。

I drink only coffee at breakfast.
私は朝ご飯にコーヒーだけしか飲みません。

I drink coffee only at breakfast.
私は朝ご飯だけにしかコーヒーを飲みません。

There are other possible ways to phrase each, of course.
Thanks for the answer Mike-san. Just one last question (I hope :p): i just read that だけしか is the emphasized form of しか. In the last sentence, why is it だけにしか and not だけしかに?
 
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Mike Cash

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朝ご飯 + に?

Thanks for the answer Mike-san. Just one last question (I hope :p): i just read that だけしか is the emphasized form of しか. In the last sentence, why is it だけにしか and not だけしかに?
It isn't [朝ご飯][だけにしか]

It is [朝ご飯{だけ}に][しか]

if that helps visualize it any. Admittedly, it is just easy to treat it as a single item for learning purposes.

Note that you could also have 朝ご飯にしかxxxx. だけ and しか are often used together, but by no means are they conjoined twins.
 

thesuker

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I might not have expressed myself right. What I wanted to know is if there's a reason for saying [朝ご飯{だけ}に][しか] and not [朝ご飯{だけしか}に] or [朝ご飯に][だけしか] . In other words, why are だけ and しか separated by に
 

Mike Cash

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I might not have expressed myself right. What I wanted to know is if there's a reason for saying [朝ご飯{だけ}に][しか] and not [朝ご飯{だけしか}に] or [朝ご飯に][だけしか] . In other words, why are だけ and しか separated by に
That's beyond my ability to answer. The latter seems to me like it might be possible, but not the former.
 

thesuker

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Ok, thanks anyway, you and everybody else have been real helpful. Thanks a bunch! :D
 

Toritoribe

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I might not have expressed myself right. What I wanted to know is if there's a reason for saying [朝ご飯{だけ}に][しか] and not [朝ご飯{だけしか}に] or [朝ご飯に][だけしか] . In other words, why are だけ and しか separated by に
だけ
副助]名詞、活用語の連体形、一部の助詞に付く。
だけ[副助]の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書

しか
係助]名詞、名詞的な語、動詞の連体形、形容詞・形容動詞の連用形、一部の助詞・助動詞などに付く。
しか[係助終助]の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書

As in the dictionary, だけ is a 副助詞[ふくじょし]. It's attached after nouns or some particles including に. Whereas しか is a 係助詞[かかりじょし]. It must be put at the end of a phrase/clause. That's why 朝ご飯だけにしか and 朝ご飯にだけしか are both correct but 朝ご飯だけしかに is wrong, as Mike-san wrote.
 

Mike Cash

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だけ[副助]の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書


しか[係助終助]の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書

As in the dictionary, だけ is a 副助詞[ふくじょし]. It's attached after nouns or some particles including に. Whereas しか is a 係助詞[かかりじょし]. It must be put at the end of a phrase/clause. That's why 朝ご飯だけにしか and 朝ご飯にだけしか are both correct but 朝ご飯だけしかに is wrong, as Mike-san wrote.
My initial reaction was to say "I love you!" but as that might embarrass you I'll just remark that we're all quite fond of you.
 

thesuker

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One last question I forgot to ask. Why in the first example you use で and in the other three に?
 

Mike Cash

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One last question I forgot to ask. Why in the first example you use で and in the other three に?
Upon reflection, I can say that a better question would be "Why didn't you also use で in the last one?"

Remember, we have two different ways of thinking about breakfast: 1) a dining event 2) what we consume at the dining event.

To be consistent with the sense I used in #1 I should have done the same with #4.
 
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