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寝かす

healer

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How does 寝かす come about?
It was quoted where the ~さす short causative short form was discussed. I try to work backwards. I can only find 寝る, but no 寝く though 寝かす does exist in the dictionary.
 

Majestic

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There is no such word as 寝く because the verb 寝る (neru) doesn't conjugate like that.

寝かす (to put to sleep) is a different verb from 寝る, and not the causative form of 寝る, even though it seems like it should be.
Grammatically, 寝かす is an irregular "godan" verb (I think).

I'm a bit over my head here. Maybe one of our Japanese grammar experts can explain better.
 
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example
1.赤ん坊を寝かす。
2.患者をベットに寝かす。
3.ロッカーを寝かして運び出す。
4.商品を倉庫に寝かしておく。
5.味噌を寝かしておく。

meaning
1. 眠りにつかせる。寝つくようにする。
2. からだを横たえさせる。
3. 縦のものを横にする。横に倒す。
4. 品物や金銭などを活用せずに手元にとどめておく。
5. 発酵・熟成させるために、一定の温度でしばらくそのままにしておく。

translation
1. I let you fall asleep. I fall asleep.
2. I let you lay a body.
3. I lay a vertical thing. I defeat it aside.
4. I leave it at the hand without utilizing an article or money.
5. I keep it intact at constant temperature for a while to let you ferment and mature.

 

Tristeza

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Hey!
It means to put sb to sleep/get sb to bed.
I mean for example if you're a mother and you're reading some fairytales to make a baby fall asleep.
 

Toritoribe

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How does 寝かす come about?
It was quoted where the ~さす short causative short form was discussed. I try to work backwards. I can only find 寝る, but no 寝く though 寝かす does exist in the dictionary.
As in the dictionary Nagashima-san linked, 寝かす is the classical version of 寝かせる, which is the counterpart of 寝る in the transitive-intransitive pair. Probably it's a kind of irregular verb pair, similar to 絶つ vs. 絶える.

Incidentally, there also is another transitive verb 絶やす for this verb pair. Both 絶やす and 絶える are from a classical intransitive verb 絶ゆ.
e.g.
classical 増ゆ --> intransitive 増える - transitive 増やす
classical 燃ゆ --> intransitive 燃える - transitive 燃やす


The causative form of 寝る is 寝させる, as in the wikipedia page Majestic-san linked.
 

healer

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Thanks everyone for the inputs.
I came across 寝かす on 〜させる (Causative) where the causative form only was discussed. 寝かす was mentioned in the same breath as 泳がす and 沸かす and I understand the latter two were also the causative form of 泳ぐ and 沸く respectively. Having read all your inputs, it sound like the web site was wrong in this regard.

By the way, some regard the short causative form to be rough slang but some regard it 関西弁. What is the truth? I wonder. Could you guys please shed some light?
 

Toritoribe

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す is the classical causative auxiliary verb for causative, which is the etymology of the causative suffix せる. See the following explanation in a dictionary.

す の解説
[助動][せ|せ|す|する|すれ|せよ]四段・ナ変・ラ変動詞の未然形に付く。
[補説]平安時代以降、漢文訓読文の「しむ」に対し、主に和文系統の文章に用いられた。中世以降、下一段化して、現代語の「せる」となる。


It's just these classical forms still remain in some dialects.

泳がす and 沸かす are transitive verbs, as the writer of the site mentioned, but also has a nuance of the causative form of the transitive counterpart (泳ぐ and 沸く, respectively). Please refer to the following discussion. (It's partially Japanese since I talked with a Japanese member.)


As I wrote there, it's often useless to think about these grammar issues only in modern Japanese. It's necessary to analyze classical Japanese by using real classical document/texts.
 

Buntaro

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I came across 寝かす on 〜させる (Causative)

Healer,

I want to share a couple of examples of causative (〜させる) I have found to be useful.

Makasenasai. (まかせなさい。) The meaning is, "Leave it up to me. I will take care of it (for you)."

Mou kaesasete moraitain desu keredomo. (もう かえさせて もらいたいん です けれども。) (もう帰させて貰いたいんですけれども。) This is an extremely polite way of saying, "I'm going home now. Goodbye."
 

Toritoribe

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The causative form of 帰る is 帰せる since 帰る is a godan verb even though it ends with "-eru". かえせる is the causative form of ichidan verbs かえる (変える or 換える/替える/代える).
cf.
ねる
練る(godan) --> 練らせる
寝る(ichidan) --> 寝させる

きる
切る(godan) --> 切らせる
着る(ichidan) --> 着させる


Also, 任せる(まかせる) is not the causative form, either, even though it ends with ーせる. This is just a transitive verb. The causative form まかせる does exist, but it's for 巻く "to wind up", 蒔く "to sow (seeds)", etc..
 

healer

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I want to share a couple of examples of causative
Thanks for sharing even though your explanation wasn't quite right. I always thought saying something is better not saying anything as far as a learner is concerned. Luckily we have Toritoribe-san correct us.
By the way, some regard the short causative form to be rough slang but some regard it 関西弁. What is the truth? I wonder. Could you guys please shed some light?
Toritoribe-san, how widely that the short causative form is used, such as 歩かす instead of 歩かせる and so on? Thanks!
 

healer

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In fact, in this type of "intransitive(-u) - transitive(-asu)" pairs, e.g. 沸く - 沸かす, 乾く - 乾かす, 減る - 減らす, 照る - 照らす, the causative form of the intransitive verbs doesn't exist.
How to categorize this type of verbs? Do we go by finding out if the causative form of the intransitive verb in question has been treated as an separate transitive verb in a dictionary?
What about the short causative form of verbs not in the above category? Where are they being used?
 

Toritoribe

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how widely that the short causative form is used, such as 歩かす instead of 歩かせる and so on?
It totally differs depending on the verb, region, generation, etc..

How to categorize this type of verbs? Do we go by finding out if the causative form of the intransitive verb in question has been treated as an separate transitive verb in a dictionary?
Not really. For example, while 滑らす is in the dictionary, 滑らせる can work as the causative form of 滑る. Those verbs are a kind of exception. They are not so many.

What about the short causative form of verbs not in the above category? Where are they being used?
Those verbs are more common than those exceptions I listed. It's just both the classical and modern forms are used for these verbs.

Could you please give an example of 動かす being used as an intransitive verb?
Oh, sorry, it's just a typo. I meant "finally it's treated as a transitive verb now". I revised my post.
 

healer

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For example, while 滑らす is in the dictionary, 滑らせる can work as the causative form of 滑る.
I suppose you meant ぬめらす. Incidentally I've found three different pronunciations of 滑らす. The causative form of 滑る(ぬめる) is either 滑らせる(ぬめらせる) or 滑らす(ぬめらす). And there are two separate headwords of 滑らすwhich read differently. They're ずらす and すべらす where the former is usually written using kana alone. I haven't been able to find a separate headword of 滑らす(ぬめらす).

I found out the short causative form of a verb when I first stumbled upon the short causative-passive form of a verb i.e. 歩かされる while I expected 歩かせられる. I asked around, 歩かされた ケンイチが厚板の上を歩かされた! https://www.tofugu.com/japanese-grammar/particle-wo/. One native Japanese said they never used the long form which I had learnt. I didn't quite follow when they referred to the latter as causative-possible form. I googled but couldn't find such term. What is causative-possible form? I wonder.

To cut the question short, would you say all these short forms, be they causative or causative-passive, are non-standard Japanese? The two set of textbooks I used before didn't refer to them at all. Some small dictionaries I came across didn't show the short conjugation either.

Thanks for your kind attention.
 

Toritoribe

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I meant すべらす. ぬめらす is not commonly used.

The causative ~す and the causative passive of godan verbs ~される are different stories.


As in the wikipedia page linked above, the causative passive ~される is a contraction. This contracted form is almost always used. On the other hand, the causative ~す is the classical form, and it depends on the verb, region, generation, etc. which, ~す or ~せる, is more common, as I already wrote.

What is causative-possible form?
They meant causative-potential form.
 

healer

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the causative passive ~される is a contraction. This contracted form is almost always used.
Did you mean the contracted form instead of the long form was used in most circumstances?
the causative ~す is the classical form
It's interesting to see that the classical form ~すis used depending on the verb, region or generation while the contracted causative-passive form ~されるderived therefrom ended up much more prevalently used.
 

Toritoribe

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Did you mean the contracted form instead of the long form was used in most circumstances?
Yes.

the contracted causative-passive form ~されるderived therefrom
Indeed, the contracted causative-passive form ~される is seemingly derived from the passive form of the classical causative form ~す, but it actually is not (well, at least not always) so. That's exactly why I said "different stories", and ~される is broadly used even for verbs the causative ~す is rarely used.
 
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