まかしといて / ～たい / からっちゅうてだ / 泣いとった / 見っけて

[eeky]

Hi,

1. 「まかしといてよ、ハグリッド」

What is まかしといて? (It appears to be some kind of introductory or preliminary statement, or possibly greeting.) I know that ～といて can mean ～ておいて, but even if that's the case here I still don't understand it.

2. 「きっとブラックのことが聞きたいんだ！」

(expecting that someone will want to ask about Black)

I seem to remember reading once that ～たい is used only in the first person. Is that just wrong? Why is it allowed here? Could it be because of きっと?


3. 「あの子の猫が猫らしく振舞ったからっちゅうてだ」

What is からっちゅうてだ? I wondered whether からっちゅう = からっていう, but then I'm left with てだ, which I don't understand.


4.「 しょっちゅう泣いとったぞ。」

Is 泣いとった = 泣いて + おった (from おる) = dialect or old person's 泣いていた? I know I have had several like this before. I just like to do a sanity check every so often because I find this character's speech so impenetrable.


5. 「そんでも、時間を見っけて、.... 」

What is 見っけて? Could it be a variant of 見つける?

 

[Mike Cash]

まかしといて / 〜たい / からっちゅうてだ / 泣いとった / 見っけて

1. 任せる and 任すare just different forms.
3. How does いう conjugate in Kansai? I suspect it is the て form and いたの is dropped. Not entirely sure.
4. Yes, dialect.
5. Yes. This is the same phenomenon that you recently asked about in another thread. Same thing happening here.

 

[Toritoribe]

1)
In addition, まかしといて is a variation of まかせといて / まかせておいて.

2)
That expresses the speaker's strong assumption, thus, it's more close to 聞きたいんだと思う / 聞きたいはずだ.

3)
Yeah, that's Kansai dialect.

からっちゅうて ＝ からっていうて ＝ からといって

 

[eeky]

Thank you both.

1)
In addition, まかしといて is a variation of まかせといて / まかせておいて.

Is this anything to do with the expression まかせとけ, which is translated in the dictionary as "leave it to me"? Is there any other possible interpretation? "Leave it to me" doesn't make obvious sense in the context.

からっちゅうて ＝ からっていうて ＝ からといって

And is だ short for いたのだ?

 

[Toritoribe]

1)
Right. まかせとけ is a male version of まかしといて / まかせといて. This expression doesn't always refer to a concrete/specific thing. "You can trust me" would make sense, maybe?

3)

だ
［助動］
２ 終止形「だ」を間投助詞的に用いて、語調を強める意を表す。「それはだ、お前が悪いんだよ」

窶堋ｾﾂ［ﾂ鞘?｢窶慊ｮﾂ］窶堙戸?凪?督｡ - ﾂ坂?佛津ｪﾅｽﾂｫﾂ鞘? - gooﾅｽﾂｫﾂ鞘?麓/url]

It seems to me to be this だ.

 

[eeky]

1)
Right. まかせとけ is a male version of まかしといて / まかせといて. This expression doesn't always refer to a concrete/specific thing. "You can trust me" would make sense, maybe?

The exact context is as follows. Ron, speaking, has been invited (together with Harry) to tea with Hagrid. Ron believes that Hagrid wants to ask him about a shocking incident that happened a day or two earlier. When Ron and Harry meet up with Hagrid, the first thing that Ron says is 「まかしといてよ、ハグリッド」; he continues 「土曜日の夜のことを聞きたいんだろう？」. Maybe he means "You can rely on me to tell you all about the incident"??

Incidentally, not that it affects the meaning greatly in this case, but does ～のことを聞きたい mean "want to ask about ～" or "want to hear about ～"?

 

[Mike Cash]

聞く
聴く
訊く

 

[eeky]

聞く
聴く
訊く

I don't understand your reply. If you are suggesting that the "hear" and "ask" meanings have different kanji, that wasn't my previous understanding. At least, I'm fairly sure that I have seen 聞く used for both meanings.

 

[Mike Cash]

I don't understand your reply. If you are suggesting that the "hear" and "ask" meanings have different kanji, that wasn't my previous understanding. At least, I'm fairly sure that I have seen 聞く used for both meanings.

If you think about it, there is no real difference as the end result is the same. No distinction is necessary unless you're translating and the nature of what follows should clarify it....whether he just talks or whether she asks questions.

 

[Toritoribe]

The exact context is as follows. Ron, speaking, has been invited (together with Harry) to tea with Hagrid. Ron believes that Hagrid wants to ask him about a shocking incident that happened a day or two earlier. When Ron and Harry meet up with Hagrid, the first thing that Ron says is 「まかしといてよ、ハグリッド」; he continues 「土曜日の夜のことを聞きたいんだろう？」. Maybe he means "You can rely on me to tell you all about the incident"??

Yeah, he said "You can rely on me to tell you all about the incident".

Incidentally, not that it affects the meaning greatly in this case, but does ～のことを聞きたい mean "want to ask about ～" or "want to hear about ～"?

The Japanese verb 聞く can have those two meanings and it's often hard to distinguish the difference between them, probably as I said previously somewhere in this forum.
訊く is only used for "to ask". 聞く can mean "to ask" and "to hear".

 

[eeky]

The Japanese verb 聞く can have those two meanings and it's often hard to distinguish the difference between them, probably as I said previously somewhere in this forum.
訊く is only used for "to ask". 聞く can mean "to ask" and "to hear".

Yeah, I think this has come up before. Because the two verbs are distinct in English, I tend to feel uneasy not knowing which is meant.

訊く is only used for "to ask"

OK, 訊 is not a character that I know. I think it is not tremendously common, at least not at my reading level.

Thanks.

 

[Mike Cash]

Yeah, I think this has come up before. Because the two verbs are distinct in English, I tend to feel uneasy not knowing which is meant.


OK, 訊 is not a character that I know. I think it is not tremendously common, at least not at my reading level.

Thanks.

I think it dropped out of popular usage in the not too distant past. You'll see it in some older novels (though still postwar).

 

[Morphling]

まかしといて / 〜たい / からっちゅうてだ / 泣いとった / 見っけて

訊 means to ask as in 訊問, 聞 has no such meaning. I mean it's got an ear at the door, not a mouth. However for convenience sake and the fact 訊 is 表外漢字, 聞くis used today.

To be fair 聞 in modern Chinese can mean to sniff so I think this character is thoroughly abused. Actually after some checking it would appear that is an official meaning of 聞 and 聞く can mean 匂いを嗅ぐ in Japanese as well. Very unexpected.

However, the meaning of 'ask' is completely made up. Doesn't even get a mention in 漢和辞典.

 

[Toritoribe]

Here is an interesting consideration about 訊く vs 聞く.
窶堙遺?堋ｺﾂ広窶堙懌?堙≫?堋ｽﾂ？ ﾂ「ﾂ『ﾂ訊窶堋ｭﾂ』窶堋ｪﾂ青ｳ窶堋ｵ窶堋｢ﾂ」窶堙??堋｢窶堋､窶禿?ﾂ信 - ﾆ但ﾆ湛ﾆ馳窶愿ｺ窶ｹL
(all in Japanese)

He said that it is a "misunderstanding" that 聞く is used instead of 訊く since 訊く is 常用外. A Japanese verb きく and a Chinese character 聞 have different concept each other, as he also mentioned in the page I linked.

 

[eeky]

He said that it is a "misunderstanding" that 聞く is used instead of 訊く since 訊く is 常用外. A Japanese verb きく and a Chinese character 聞 have different concept each other, as he also mentioned in the page I linked.

In your opinion, would you say that the use of 聞く to mean "ask" is generally considered correct by most Japanese people?

 

[Morphling]

聞く meaning to ask is widely accepted to be correct so no issues with that.

There are many things in Japanese that are not technically correct but it has been accepted to be correct. 百姓読み is one such category as is merging of characters that are actually different. 死体 vs 屍体, 連想 vs 聯想, 座る vs 坐る etc. However it has been widely accepted so practically it is correct.

 

[Toritoribe]

In your opinion, would you say that the use of 聞く to mean "ask" is generally considered correct by most Japanese people?

Yes. That's right. 聞く as "to ask" is never wrong.
More likely, as in the site I linked in my previous post, 聞く is the only kanji to mean "to ask" until Edo period and 訊く began to be used in Meiji or Taishō period, since a Japanese verb きく means "to ask" and 聞く is used for (almost) all meanings of きく regardless of the meaning of "聞" in Chinese. This is a different story from something like "障害 is used instead of 障碍".

 

[eeky]

since a Japanese verb きく means "to ask" and 聞く is used for (almost) all meanings of きく regardless of the meaning of "聞" in Chinese.

Do you perceive that there are two different Japanese verbs きく, one meaning "ask" and one meaning "hear", both of which can be written 聞く, or do you perceive that these are the same verb in Japanese corresponding to two different verbs in English?

 

[Toritoribe]

The latter; a verb きく covers "to ask" and "to hear" in English. 広辞苑 says that 利く/効く also has the same etymology as 聞く, i.e., きく covers all these meanings. In fact, both 利き酒 and 聞き酒 are used for "blind sake tasting".

 

[eeky]

OK, thanks,