The action "to prepare" is not done in/at the party. It's done previously for the party. Thus, パーティー is not the location of the action. That's why に is used there, not で.私達は娘の誕生日パーティーにキャンディーで一杯のピニャータを用意します。
Should パーティーに above be パーティーで for action verb such as 用意する in this case? If not, why?
で is the -te form of copula there, thus, it's the continuous usage of the -te form. 大胆 is an adjective which modifies 役割, not an adverb which modifies 打ち立てていく in that sentence.イギリスのために大胆で新しい役割を打ち立てていくのです。
Should 大胆で be 大胆に being the adverb of the な-adjective? I'm not sure how 大胆で comes about grammatically.
で indicates material. 毛に/によって覆われた also works well, though.毛で覆われたアライグマ
I have learnt that the particle for the object of a passive verb is に for animated agent, によって for others. How does て come in in 毛で? What is the definition of this grammar point?
家具 is inanimate, isn't it?I have learnt that the particle for the object of a passive verb is に for animated agent, によって for others.
Could you please tell me which part of the sentence indicates the pinata was filled somewhere else in advance?The action "to prepare" is not done in/at the party.
How to define when で can be used as well instead of に? I understand によって can be used instead of に where confusion can result? So is によって universally acceptable for passive verb? Is で universally acceptable for passive verbs too?家具 is inanimate, isn't it?
Yes. I wouldn't say it's "just because", though.Could you please tell me which part of the sentence indicates the pinata was filled somewhere else in advance?
Is it just because に was used instead of で so the pinata had to be filled somewhere else?
パーティーで is grammatically correct but semantically odd. As I wrote, 用意する connotes that it's done previously/in advance. パーティーでピニャータを用意します sounds like to me that ピニャータ is prepared for something else, not for the party. Also, it's not "pinata had to be/was filled at the party" but "pinata will be filled at the party" because it's 用意します, not 用意しました, as you wrote.If で is used instead then the pinata had to be filled at the party and the sentence is still grammatically correct, am I right?
Besides the verb in this case is 用意する in non-perfect tense.
に is associated with 用意します, as in パーティーにピニャータを用意します. This に is the same as ~のために in meaning, needless to say.Doesn't the particle に in this sentence have to go with some verb?
It's totally depends on the context, including the type of the verb or the relation between the verb and the noun preceding the particle. For instance, 家具で囲まれた書斎 is OK, but 泥棒で盗まれた財布 is not. Particles have multiple functions. There are many cases where に or で can't refer to the agent in a passive sentence.How to define when で can be used as well instead of に? I understand によって can be used instead of に where confusion can result? So is によって universally acceptable for passive verb? Is で universally acceptable for passive verbs too?
I see now. 用意する always refer to an action done in advance, doesn't it?用意する connotes that it's done previously/in advance
I misread that because I had expected that a comma '、' would have been in order right after で in written form, a pause in verbal form, if it is a で in です. That is イギリスのために大胆で、新しい役割を打ち立てていくのです。Should there always be a comma after で in cases like this?で is the -te form of copula there, thus, it's the continuous usage of the -te form
I don't quite get why 家具で囲まれた書斎 is okay while 泥棒で盗まれた財布 is not.家具で囲まれた書斎 is OK, but 泥棒で盗まれた財布 is not.
All yes.I see now. 用意する always refer to an action done in advance, doesn't it?
The piñata hadn't been filled at the time the sentence was spoken because 用意します was used, had it? If the piñata had already been done, 用意しました should be used, shouldn't it?
No. A comma is optional. A comma indeed can be used to make clear the meaning when the sentence is ambiguous, since, for instance, there are two or more interpretations are possible, but it's not the case there. There is no ambiguity, and the sentence is not confusing at all.I misread that because I had expected that a comma '、' would have been in order right after で in written form, a pause in verbal form, if it is a で in です. That is イギリスのために大胆で、新しい役割を打ち立てていくのです。Should there always be a comma after で in cases like this?
I already answered the reason in this thread (at least a hint of it).I don't quite get why 家具で囲まれた書斎 is okay while 泥棒で盗まれた財布 is not.
毛で覆われたアライグマで indicates material.
Is it correct that に can't be used only where there is confusion so によって will be used instead? And で can't be used for an animate agent, can it?There are many cases where に or で can't refer to the agent in a passive sentence.
I suppose 家具に/によって囲まれた書斎 is okay too? Am I right?毛に/によって覆われた also works well, though.
Then how about these examples?毛で覆われたアライグマ
家具で囲まれた書斎
What I can see from above is both are material or inanimate while 泥棒 in 泥棒で盗まれた財布 is a person. I guess で can't be used for a person or anything animate. Is it correct?
I don't know what you refer to by "confusion", but the point is whether the verb can take に as the target marker. For instance, 渡す belongs to this group. In a sentence 彼女に渡された, 彼女 can be both the target(the one who received something) and agent(the one who handed it). In this case, によって or から is used for the latter meaning if it's unclear from the context.Is it correct that に can't be used only where there is confusion so によって will be used instead?
Yes. に is used in your example in the first place, isn't it?I suppose 家具に/によって囲まれた書斎 is okay too? Am I right?
It seems to me that where で and に used with Japanese passive verbs do not always translate to "with" and "by" in the English counterparts.You need to explain about the functions of "by" and "with", and why there are verbs where "with" can't be used in a passive sentence.
I would still say the crow was chased away BY rather WITH the falcon even though で is used in the sentence. I guess that に can be used instead of で in this case, can't it?駅前のカラスが鷹で追い払われた。
I see that the noun that goes with で is not involved in a subject and object relationship in the two sentences.the particle is not changed in the counterpart active sentence.
What you said was the confusion I had been referring to.I don't know what you refer to by "confusion"
Having seen your examples of active voice converted from the passive counterparts I tentatively conclude pending your opinion that で goes only with noun that can't be a volitional subject when the passive verb is converted to active verb. I don't know what else I can base it on.ウイルスで入国を拒否した。
駅前のカラスを鷹で追い払った。
Would they be alright that the verbs be rendered into passive form?×毛に覆った表面
×家具に囲んだ書斎
×泥棒に盗んだ財布
I didn't say such a thing. That's not my point at all. It is common knowledge that a particle in Japanese is not in one-to-one corresponding to a preposition in English, needless to say. I just said that your question was like my parable, as if it's like a question of a learner who is confusing different functions of prepositions in English.It seems to me that where で and に used with Japanese passive verbs do not always translate to "with" and "by" in the English counterparts.
"Those two sentences are almost the same in meaning" doesn't (at least not always) mean "で can be replaced with に" and "the function is the same between で and に in that sentence". Indeed, there are cases where the difference can be considered to be just a nuance as a result, like 毛で覆われた vs. 毛に覆われた or 家具で囲まれた書斎 vs. 家具に囲まれた書斎, but "there are cases where に and で seems to be interchangeable in a passive sentence almost without changing the meaning" is not the same as "に and で are the same in the function in those sentences", of course. You need to realize a simple fact that に and で are different particles in the first place. に indeed can be used there, but 駅前のカラスが鷹で追い払われた。and 駅前のカラスが鷹に追い払われた。are not the same in meaning, as I explained below.I would still say the crow was chased away BY rather WITH the falcon even though で is used in the sentence. I guess that に can be used instead of で in this case, can't it?
Why do you think that those active sentences are derived from the passive ones? Isn't it possible that the active ones are the original? No one can say which is original since both are equally possible. (More precisely, the idea which is original is non-sense.)Having seen your examples of active voice converted from the passive counterparts I tentatively conclude pending your opinion that で goes only with noun that can't be a volitional subject when the passive verb is converted to active verb. I don't know what else I can base it on.
Yes, of course, but I don't understand why you need to confirm it. It's obvious, as you can see those examples in this thread, no?Would they be alright that the verbs be rendered into passive form?
That is as follows.
毛に覆われた表面
家具に囲まれだ書斎
泥棒に盗まれた財布
You didn't. That was just what I had found.I didn't say such a thing.
I'm not sure which two sentences you were referring to. If you were referring to 駅前のカラスを鷹で追い払った and 駅前のカラスを鷹に追い払った as you talked about later on. I accept what goes with で can't be an agent though a passive verb is used. And で or に being used have to be different in nuance. So are 毛で覆われた and 毛に覆われた as well as 家具で囲まれた書斎 and 家具に囲まれた書斎. Perhaps they're sort of like the nuance of "with" and "by" in the English language."Those two sentences are almost the same in meaning" doesn't (at least not always) mean "で can be replaced with に" and "the function is the same between で and に in that sentence".
There is no subject in this sentence, so no agent is specified. ウイルス is not an agent and で is used to indicate a reason.How do you interpret ウイルスに入国を拒否された。, by the way? Why に can't be used here?
I just went by what you did with your examples at the time. It so happened you had the sentences in passive voice first and then subsequently in active voice. Certainly the conversion could well be done in the other way.Why do you think that those active sentences are derived from the passive ones?
Not at all. I was suggesting the agent has to be volitional because what I had found was all those that went with で seemed to be non-volitional.are you saying that で can indicate the agent when it's volitional?
I had never learnt of で taking an agent in the course of passive voice in Japanese language. However I took で at the time as a probable particle that might take an agent when I came across a sentence the first time consisting of a verb in passive voice and something going with で helping implementing an action, i.e. 毛で覆われたアライグマ. I did what I did because my definition as I understood then of agent wasn't clear-cut and I always supposed I might have missed something in my earlier learning.Seems like your sticking to the idea "で can be used to indicate the subject/agent in a passive sentence in some cases" is the key of your misunderstanding and confusion in this case.
I would not have insisted. I just didn't get it. I have been trying to find out in what circumstances one can use で where the verb is in passive voice. I haven't associated the particle で with the word "agent". The impression I have had is that で can be replaced with に if it indicates means of action, such as 駅前のカラスが鷹で追い払われた.Whether or not you insist that it seems to you that で can indicate the agent in a passive sentence, it's simply wrong.
Thanks for the contrasting examples that elucidate your explanation. ウイルスで is "because of virus" and 鷹で is "with falcon".入国管理官にウイルスで入国を拒否された。
駅前のカラスが鷹匠に鷹で追い払われた。
cf. active version
入国管理官がウイルスで入国を拒否した。
鷹匠が鷹で駅前のカラスを追い払った。
I often feel inadequate to be sure. I had supposed I knew about how to make passive voice in Japanese language, then the encounter of で threw me.Yes, of course, but I don't understand why you need to confirm it.
There is no subject in the sentence ウイルスで入国を拒否された。,either, no?There is no subject in this sentence
Then, what is the function of ウイルス in this sentence? The subject of a passive sentence is not the agent in the first place, right?so no agent is specified. ウイルス is not an agent
ウイルスに入国を拒否された。 and ウイルスで入国を拒否された。 are two different sentences from each other, needless to say, and で is not used here.で is used to indicate a reason.
No object either.either, no
It's stating the reason.what is the function of ウイルス in this sentence
It's not. The agent should be referred to with に or によって in a sentence of passive voice.The subject of a passive sentence is not the agent in the first place, right?
I had supposed this sentence is nonsensical because ウイルスに doesn't make sense. Please correct me if I'm wrong.ウイルスに入国を拒否された。
No. 入国 is the object. Furthermore, you don't seem to get my intention correctly. You said "There is no subject in this sentence, so no agent is specified.". This can be applied also to ウイルスで入国を拒否された。, right? Why can this be the reason why に can't be used here?No object either.
As already pointed out, ウイルスに入国を拒否された。 and ウイルスで入国を拒否された。 are two different sentences from each other.It's stating the reason.
Then, why do you think ウイルス is the reason in ウイルスに入国を拒否された。? This interpretation contradicts your understanding, no?It's not. The agent should be referred to with に or によって in a sentence of passive voice.
Yes, that's right, but your replies don't seem to say so. ウイルスに入国を拒否された。is grammatical but semantically odd because ウイルス is the agent, not because ウイルス is (actually) the cause/reason. No one can say ウイルス is the cause/reason just from ウイルスに入国を拒否された。.I had supposed this sentence is nonsensical because ウイルスに doesn't make sense. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
My bad! I guess I was looking for a physical object.入国 is the object
I can't find a subject. A subject would have nothing to do with an agent in this case being a sentence with passive verb. I must've been thinking of verb of active voice.You said "There is no subject in this sentence, so no agent is specified.".
As に works for passive verbs with an agent only I didn't think a virus could be an agent because I didn't take virus something volitional at the time. I'm not sure if "volitional" is the right word to use though.Why can this be the reason why に can't be used here?
You have broadened my understanding of に and で, in their usage with agent and non-agent.You shouldn't interpret the meaning by the relation between the noun and verb
I understand に here means "for the purpose of".パーティーに用意します
You guessed right. Not only the particles, it would be more obvious with animate things.You probably wouldn't misinterpret this sentence
I just took virus not something volitional, so it couldn't be an agent.your replies don't seem to say so
No.I have also found that に can also mean "because of". With that meaning in mind, could we then say ウイルスに入国を拒否された?
You initially thought パーティー was the location of the action, as you clearly wrote.You have broadened my understanding of に and で, in their usage with agent and non-agent.
You need to realize your impression like "more obvious with animate things" doesn't mean "your interpretation is correct." Remember your initial translation of カラスが鷹で追い払われた. It makes much more sense if 鷹 is the agent, and that's the reason of your initial interpretation, no? You must keep in mind that this is exactly the cause of your misinterpretations so far.Not only the particles, it would be more obvious with animate things.
I've found that に also has the meaning of " because of (reason); for; with" on に - Jisho.org at Particle item 4. I would appreciate if you could please give me a simple example sentence using に for this particular meaning. Thanks heaps!
Yes I did and you have proved me wrong. Thanks for the correction.You initially thought パーティー was the location of the action, as you clearly wrote.
I understand 用意する means to prepare something in advance as you had confirmed. If you are referring to the same example sentence above, certainly the former is true because に in パーティーに means "for the purpose of" so it means here for the purpose for the party. I thank you for giving me the chance to verify my understanding.Should パーティーに above be パーティーで for action verb such as 用意する in this case?
I never insisted on anything and I will never in the future. I'm a learner of everything Japanese. I was not in a position to comment at all. I was just asking and I asked again and again when I didn't understand and get the concept you were trying to say to me. I thank you for your perseverance and tolerance regardless.you insisted that 鷹 was non-volitional subject
I would not say I agreed your explanation. I'm in no position to agree or disagree. I actually got to understand your explanation eventually I believe. In the example of カラスが鷹匠に鷹で追い払われた, 鷹匠 is the agent whereas 鷹 is not and で here means the falcon was being used.You finally agreed my explanation
I could be wrong in the first place when I said that because I was and I still am in the early stage of learning the language. I'm not sure what interpretations you're referring to. Now I'm just trying to understand the context of the whole sentence.If you say you didn't interpret the meaning by the relation between the noun and verb, tell me in what way you initially got those interpretations.
Thanks for your emphasis. I will definitely bear that in mind.You need to realize your impression like "more obvious with animate things" doesn't mean "your interpretation is correct."
I will remember this too.You shouldn't stick to your own understanding such like "animate vs. inanimate", "volitional vs. non-volitional".
に の解説I've found that に also has the meaning of " because of (reason); for; with" on に - Jisho.org at Particle item 4. I would appreciate if you could please give me a simple example sentence using に for this particular meaning.
I always expect this in any language and it could well depend on the context again. I couldn't find an example of に for this meaning. That was why I asked of you.に can't always mean "because of". Think about situations where prepositions like "by", "for" or "to" can have a meaning of "because of" in English. It totally depends on the verb or context whether "because of" is possible or not, right? It might be similar to it.