~てもらう and extra

LewiiG · 10 May 2013

I'm thinking about もらう and くれる.

見せてくれる？= Will you show me? (Something that you want someone to do for you)

見せてもらう =someone will show me (Something that someone will do for you)

Is もらう for when someone did something for you without asking, and くれる is for when you asked?

1a. E.g what's the difference between 読んでくれないか and 読んでもらえないか? Or 助けてもらった and 助けてくれた? (first is politeness levels, second is of someones own accord, and because I asked them.)

1b. 気持ちだけで、じゅうぶんだから。（やってもらえることも、ないし） does this mean, for the meaning, "It's the thought that counts, after all. (and It's not like she can do anything else for me)" In a positive, grateful sense because the adresse can't do much in her current situation. Could it have been やってくれられること?

Extra

2. この歌ハマった。 What is ハマった? I keep seeing this, I think. I see dictionary definitions of "嵌る" but none of them seem to make sense here.

3.切ない＆可愛い＆綺麗！How often is "&" used like that? Does it mean "and" in the same English sense? Is it pronouned? One time I saw in a song 夢＆夢 and it looked like the ＆ just seperated it for ease because it was just ゆめ、ゆめ。

よろしくお願いします

SomeCallMeChris · 10 May 2013

I would say 読んでくれないか is 'Won't you read this for me?' (Asking listener to give to speaker) and 読んでもらえないか？ is 'Couldn't I have you read this for me?' (Wondering aloud if the speaker is able to receive a favor from the listener). Politeness follows because the second is more indirect, but the grammatical difference of 'will you give' and 'can I have' is pretty substantial.

The 1b phrase does mean something like 'it's the thought that counts' although, I'm not sure about the context your thinking of or if those phrases can be switched there. Almost certainly they can grammatically, but natural is another matter.

That use of はまる is definition 5 and the footnote in this definition, はまる【填まる／嵌まる】の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書 ; mostly it means 'hooked on' like a... a song or musician, a tv show, a game, or so forth. This is recent use so only in newer and thorough dictionaries.

'&' is I think usually pronounced と, but that wouldn't sound right in your example. I've seen it here and there linking nouns but I don't know about linking i-adjectives like that. I don't think it's used a lot; it's mostly in titles, ads, and cover art as a stylization. You could probably furigana it with any 'and'-like conjunction and get away with it.

Toritoribe · 11 May 2013

LewiiG said:
Is もらう for when someone did something for you without asking, and くれる is for when you asked?

1a. E.g what's the difference between 読んでくれないか and 読んでもらえないか? Or 助けてもらった and 助けてくれた? (first is politeness levels, second is of someones own accord, and because I asked them.)

declarative sentence
あなたが私に/を～てくれる。
あなた: the subject, doer, giver of the favor
私: the target/object, recipient of the favor

私があなたに～てもらう。
私: the subject, recipient of the favor
あなた: the target, doer, giver of the favor

interrogative sentence
（あなたが私に/を）～てくれる？/～てくれない？
あなた: the subject, doer, giver of the favor
私: the target/object, recipient of the favor

（あなたが/に私に/を）～てもらえる？/～てもらえない？
あなた: the subject/target, doer, giver of the favor
私: the target/object, recipient of the favor
(It depends on the verb preceding くれる/もらえる which particle, に, を or が, is used.)

Thus, a) 読んでくれないか and 読んでもらえないか? are almost the same, b) the subject of 助けてもらった and the subject of 助けてくれた are different.

LewiiG said:
1b. 気持ちだけで、じゅうぶんだから。（やってもらえることも、ないし） does this mean, for the meaning, "It's the thought that counts, after all. (and It's not like she can do anything else for me)" In a positive, grateful sense because the adresse can't do much in her current situation. Could it have been やってくれられること?

気持ちだけで、じゅうぶんだから。
That thought is enough for me. / I appreciate the thought.

やってもらえることも、ないし
There is nothing you/he/she can do for me.

やってくれられること doesn't make sense.

LewiiG said:
3.切ない＆可愛い＆綺麗！How often is "&" used like that? Does it mean "and" in the same English sense? Is it pronouned? One time I saw in a song 夢＆夢 and it looked like the ＆ just seperated it for ease because it was just ゆめ、ゆめ。

& is relatively common. It means "and" as same as in English, and pronounced アンド or occasionally と.

LewiiG · 12 May 2013

SomeCallMeChris said:
I would say 読んでくれないか is 'Won't you read this for me?' (Asking listener to give to speaker) and 読んでもらえないか？ is 'Couldn't I have you read this for me?' (Wondering aloud if the speaker is able to receive a favor from the listener). Politeness follows because the second is more indirect, but the grammatical difference of 'will you give' and 'can I have' is pretty substantial.

I see. Yes, that does make sense.

SomeCallMeChris said:
mostly it means 'hooked on' like a... a song or musician, a tv show, a game, or so forth. This is recent use so only in newer and thorough dictionaries.

Thanks for the definition!

Toritoribe said:
Thus, a) 読んでくれないか and 読んでもらえないか? are almost the same, b) the subject of 助けてもらった and the subject of 助けてくれた are different.

Thanks for writing all of that information, it was helpful. So with the subjects being different, it's like:
助けてもらった = I was helped by someone
助けてくれた = Someone helped me.

If this is the case, does てくれる focus more on the person who did the favour? They both have different subjects, so in Japanese what is the nuance of the two? What effect does switching the subject have linguistically? (Sorry if I misunderstood something, or if I should understand the effect of switching a subject in a language).

Toritoribe said:
気持ちだけで、じゅうぶんだから。
That thought is enough for me. / I appreciate the thought.
やってもらえることも、ないし
There is nothing you/he/she can do for me.
やってくれられること doesn't make sense.

Yeah, these were what I thought of when I read the sentences, but I thought translation wise, I would write what I did Are my translations far from what should be felt? Just one thing, about(やってもらえることも、ないし) In what sense is it meant? Context: Lawyer talking to defendant:

じゃあ、おうえんをたのむよ。法廷で
おうえん、ですか？あの、高校野球、みたいな？
ん？…そうだね。うん。それ。
わかりました！まかせてください！
え。
じゃあ、さっそく学生服とタイコを買いに
……
い、いやいや、ちょっと待った！
な、なんですか！
冗談に決まってるじゃないか！
…そ、そんなぁ！
いいよ、ありがとう。気持ちだけで、じゅうぶんだから（やってもらえることも、ないし）

（やってもらえることも、ないし）it's inner monolouge. Is it in a grateful way (because the defendant is being held and can't do anything but tried to) or just a plain statement? Maybe even a humorous one? I can't tell.

Also, whilst I'm here, "冗談に決まってるじゃないか！" I probaly get the overall meaning but not how 冗談に決まってる works depsite knowing what boths the words mean. Mainly how 決まってる is used here, I would like to know.

Does やって"any version of くれる"こと make sense? Or is it just wrong?

Toritoribe said:
& is relatively common. It means "and" as same as in English, and pronounced アンド or occasionally と.

Thanks. I've only seen it twice. I should look around more.

tokkyo · 13 May 2013

Try not to think of it in too complicated of a manner

Because literally what もらう is saying is that you are getting someone to do something
助けてくれた He helped me
助けてもらった I got him to help

してくれる？ Will you do this for me?
してもらえる? Can I get you to do this?

読んでくれた He read it for me
読んでもらった I got him to read it

Even if it doesn't always translate that way, the underlying meaning will be that you are getting someone to do something.

Toritoribe · 14 May 2013

LewiiG said:
If this is the case, does てくれる focus more on the person who did the favour? They both have different subjects, so in Japanese what is the nuance of the two? What effect does switching the subject have linguistically?

Your interpretation is basically correct, but the difference is subtle, as SomeCallMeChris-san already pointed out. See the following examples. One of the reasons to switch the subject is to unify the subjects of the two clauses. In these cases, ～てくれる and ～てもらう are not interchangeable.

私は助けてもらおうと大声を上げた。
彼は私を助けてくれようとしてかなり無理をした。

It's similar to a function of the passive voice.

貢献を認められて / 引きつけた / 再話 / 大きく分けて二つ | Japan Forum

LewiiG said:
Yeah, these were what I thought of when I read the sentences, but I thought translation wise, I would write what I did Are my translations far from what should be felt?

Your translation is fine. I just gave a literal translation.

LewiiG said:
Just one thing, about(やってもらえることも、ないし) In what sense is it meant?

I can't tell, either. It depends on the character of the lowyer.

LewiiG said:
Also, whilst I'm here, "冗談に決まってるじゃないか！" I probaly get the overall meaning but not how 冗談に決まってる works depsite knowing what boths the words mean. Mainly how 決まってる is used here, I would like to know.

It's a joke, of course!

～に決まっている
It's no doubt~. / It must be~. / It's ~ of course.

３（「…にきまっている」の形で）疑う余地がなく、当然である。きっとそうである。また、必ずそうなる。「冬は寒いに―・っている」「そんなことを言われれば、だれだって怒るに―・っている」

きまる【決（ま）る／極まる】の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書

LewiiG said:
Does やって"any version of くれる"こと make sense? Or is it just wrong?

くれる doesn't have the potential form. So, the answer is no. できることもないし can be an alternative.

Nesshin · 15 May 2013

Added to the explanations above くれるis usually more casual than もらう。
～てくれませんか
～てもらいませんか
of the two ~てくれませんか is the one you would use with friends or for casual situations.

LewiiG · 15 May 2013

tokkyo said:
Because literally what もらう is saying is that you are getting someone to do something
助けてくれた He helped me
助けてもらった I got him to help

してくれる？ Will you do this for me?
してもらえる? Can I get you to do this?

読んでくれた He read it for me
読んでもらった I got him to read it

Even if it doesn't always translate that way, the underlying meaning will be that you are getting someone to do something.

So that is the difference. I see what they mean individually now, thanks!

Toritoribe said:
Your interpretation is basically correct, but the difference is subtle, as SomeCallMeChris-san already pointed out. See the following examples. One of the reasons to switch the subject is to unify the subjects of the two clauses. In these cases, ～てくれる and ～てもらう are not interchangeable.

私は助けてもらおうと大声を上げた。
彼は私を助けてくれようとしてかなり無理をした。

It's similar to a function of the passive voice.

ﾂ貢ﾅ陳｣窶堙ｰ窶戳窶堙溪?堙ｧ窶堙ｪ窶堙 / ﾋ?ｸ窶堋ｫ窶堙や?堋ｯ窶堋ｽ / ﾂ催?彙 / 窶佚･窶堋ｫ窶堋ｭ窶｢ﾂｪ窶堋ｯ窶堙??愿ｱ窶堙 | Japan Forum

So:
私は助けてもらおうと大声を上げた = "I tried to cry out to have someone help me". Wheras
彼は私を助けてくれようと大声を上げた would mean "He helped me and he tried to cry out".

彼は私を助けてくれようとしてかなり無理をした = He tried to help me and overdid himself quite a bit.
私は助けてもらうとしてかなり無理をした = I tried to have someone help and overdid myself quite a bit.

If I am understanding.

Toritoribe said:
Your translation is fine. I just gave a literal translation.

Oh okay, thanks for that too

Toritoribe said:
I can't tell, either. It depends on the character of the lowyer.

Oh, so it depends. Well I found the official translation it happens to be "(And there really isn't
anything you can do
for me anyway...)" So I guess that's kind of sarcastic/funny. But it could probably be taken many ways in both languages.

Toritoribe said:
It's a joke, of course!

～に決まっている
It's no doubt~. / It must be~. / It's ~ of course.

きまる【決（ま）る／極まる】の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書

Thanks!

Toritoribe said:
くれる doesn't have the potential form. So, the answer is no. できることもないし can be an alternative.

Aha, okay, I see. Thanks again.

Nesshin said:
Added to the explanations above くれるis usually more casual than もらう。
～てくれませんか
～てもらいませんか
of the two ~てくれませんか is the one you would use with friends or for casual situations.

Good to know. Thanks for the extra information![/URL]

Toritoribe · 15 May 2013

助けてもらおうとした
tried to have someone help

大声を上げようとした
tried to cry out

彼は私を助けてくれようと（して）大声を上げた。＝彼は私を助けてくれるために大声を上げた。
He cried out to help me.

The most important difference between くれる and もらう other than the subjects is that くれる can be used ONLY WHEN the recipient of the favor is the speaker or an in-group member of the speaker. For instance, you can use 彼は彼女を助けてあげた or 彼女は彼に助けてもらった whoever 彼女 is, whereas 彼は彼女を助けてくれた can be used only when 彼女 is your in-group member.

～てもらいませんか＝～てもらったらどうですか
How about you ask someone to do for you?

～てもらえませんか
Can I ask you to do for me?

～てくれませんか and ～てもらえませんか is a polite expression, so these are not casual and not used between friends. Instead, ～てくれる？, ～てくれない？ or ～てくれ is used for the case.
～ていただけませんか, ～てくださいませんか, ～をお願いできませんか or like that is more common in formal situation.

LewiiG · 16 May 2013

Toritoribe said:
助けてもらおうとした
tried to have someone help
大声を上げようとした
tried to cry out
彼は私を助けてくれようと（して）大声を上げた。＝彼は私を助けてくれるために大声を上げた。
He cried out to help me.

Oh yeah, I put tried in the wrong place. Oops, my error.

The most important difference between くれる and もらう other than the subjects is that くれる can be used ONLY WHEN the recipient of the favor is the speaker or an in-group member of the speaker. For instance, you can use 彼は彼女を助けてあげた or 彼女は彼に助けてもらった whoever 彼女 is, whereas 彼は彼女を助けてくれた can be used only when 彼女 is your in-group member.

An in-group member, as in, someone who is in the conversation? Not someone who would normally be referred to in the third person?

～てもらいませんか＝～てもらったらどうですか
How about you ask someone to do for you?
～てもらえませんか
Can I ask you to do for me?

I see, I wasn't sure what ~てもらいませんか could mean. Thanks.

～てくれませんか and ～てもらえませんか is a polite expression, so these are not casual and not used between friends. Instead, ～てくれる？, ～てくれない？ or ～てくれ is used for the case.
～ていただけませんか, ～てくださいませんか, ～をお願いできませんか or like that is more common in formal situation.

Yes that makes a lot more sense. I figured. I took away the fact that asking with くれる is more casual/less polite than asking with もらう. Again I suppose. Subtle though right?

I don't think I've seen ～てくださいませんか, or ～をお願いできませんか before. Thanks.

SomeCallMeChris · 16 May 2013

LewiiG said:
An in-group member, as in, someone who is in the conversation? Not someone who would normally be referred to in the third person?

in-group is those people that you would use humble speech in reference to if you were being polite, and out-group is everyone else. It changes with context, and is roughly the set of people that you would mean if you said 'we' in English in the same context, but in Japanese it's important for choosing verbs. (Edit: That is, a 'we' not meaning 'you and me' with the person you're speaking to, but rather 'we' meaning 'my family and me' 'my company and me' 'my friends and me' or whatever. Maybe the parallel isn't so good after all. )

The concept should be discussed in any decent textbook, usually when giving-receiving words are first discussed, though terminology might vary.

Toritoribe · 16 May 2013

LewiiG said:
Again I suppose. Subtle though right?

Yes,that's right. You can use ～てもらえる？ or ～てもらえない？ in almost the same meaning.

An in-group member usually refers to someone who is more close to you than the one you are talking to, e.g., family members, relatives or colleagues. くれる is used only when the recipient of the favor is more close to you than the giver of the favor. For instance, in a sentence 彼は妹に花を買ってくれた, 妹 refers to your(= the speaker's) sister, whereas as for 彼は妹に花を買ってあげた/やった, 妹 would refer to his sister. The recipient of the favor of くれる is the speaker themselves in most cases, though.

LewiiG · 18 May 2013

SomeCallMeChris said:
in-group is those people that you would use humble speech in reference to if you were being polite, and out-group is everyone else. It changes with context, and is roughly the set of people that you would mean if you said 'we' in English in the same context, but in Japanese it's important for choosing verbs. (Edit: That is, a 'we' not meaning 'you and me' with the person you're speaking to, but rather 'we' meaning 'my family and me' 'my company and me' 'my friends and me' or whatever. Maybe the parallel isn't so good after all. )

The concept should be discussed in any decent textbook, usually when giving-receiving words are first discussed, though terminology might vary.

Oh, that group of people. Thanks! Not sure if I've seen a name for it, just the language used in certain situations. Thanks!

Toritoribe said:
Yes,that's right. You can use ～てもらえる？ or ～てもらえない？ in almost the same meaning.

An in-group member usually refers to someone who is more close to you than the one you are talking to, e.g., family members, relatives or colleagues. くれる is used only when the recipient of the favor is more close to you than the giver of the favor. For instance, in a sentence 彼は妹に花を買ってくれた, 妹 refers to your(= the speaker's) sister, whereas as for 彼は妹に花を買ってあげた/やった, 妹 would refer to his sister. The recipient of the favor of くれる is the speaker themselves in most cases, though.

Okay, I understand. Thanks again Toritoribe!

It took a while, but I finally understand the answers I asked questions to. Thanks so much to everyone who posted!

~てもらう and extra

LewiiG

先輩

SomeCallMeChris

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

LewiiG

先輩

tokkyo

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Nesshin

後輩

LewiiG

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

LewiiG

先輩

SomeCallMeChris

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

LewiiG

先輩

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