ごめん！ Have?

Tomii515 · 4 Sep 2006

I think I posted 2 forums about this a couple months ago...Well, no one really helped, at least, I didn't think so....IDK! Well, I'm trying to think of new things to learn, and before learning double verb non-compound sentence thingys, I think I should learn Have. Okay, here's is what I need...:

...have (to do something)... (must?) (past/present/negitive/past-negitive & informal/formal)

...have (something). (own?) (past/present/negitive/past-negitive & informal/formal)

any other ones...? I can't think of any.

It would be extremely helpful if someone could just tell me what to do, or use, or w/e...oh, and if you do decide to do that, tell me informla, and formal please!

If you don't (-_-). Uhh, could you find a good website that will help me what I'm asking for help in? I checked, couldn't find any ones that made sence...

Please and Thank You to everyone that helps!

-Tommy

yukio_michael · 4 Sep 2006

I'm going to wager a guess...

I have to go to work...
shigoto e ikaremasu (仕事へ行かれます)
notes: using the passive form of iku

I have a pen. (A pen exists..)
pen wa arimasu (ぺんはあります）

haven't you gone already?
anata wa ikimasen ka? (貴方は行きませんか?)

...I'm sure there are nicer, more coloquial ways (if these are even correct) I answered to try to test myself. So hopefully someone will chime in with how wrong or right I got it.

nice gaijin · 4 Sep 2006

"have" does not translate directly from English to Japanese.

"have to" as an imperative is actually a double negative: 行かなくてはいけません (lit: it is not alright to not go)

"have" as in possession is either あります or 持っています (holding)

The two forms are unrelated.

also, most negative-form questions we might ask in English (haven't you gone yet, don't you like coffee, etc) are not found in Japanese. A negative question like 行きませんか is more like an invitation than a query.

doinkies · 4 Sep 2006

Tomii also IMed doinkies about this, and he said that he meant "have to" specifically. I told him 3 ways of saying this, but he didn't really seem to understand it, and he especially didn't understand that a negative verb can have a te form, and I'm kind of at a loss to explain that. ^^;;
But anyway, yeah, "have" doesn't translate directly from English to Japanese, you have to use the right word for the right kind of "have".
For instance:
I have a fluffy doink plushie.
ふわふわなドインクのぬいぐるみを持っています。
I have to ask doinkies!
ドインキーズに聞かなくてはいけません！
or
ドインキーズに聞かなければなりません！
or
ドインキーズに聞かなければだめ（です）！
(More informal versions of the first two "have to ask doinkies" sentences are ドインキーズに聞かなくちゃ！and ドインキーズに聞かなきゃ！, respectively.)
I'm sure probably someone else can explain in better detail the differences between the different ways of saying "have to (do something)". ^^;;

Tomii515 · 4 Sep 2006

Thank you everyone so far. i understand the negative -te form that u explained now. but, i just need someoen to explain what u have to do exactly to get everything...and i know it doesnt translate directly, otherwise it wouldnt be this hard XD but, i need ot knwo each thing, and how to get each thing...and yeah...i would GREATLLLLLLLLLLLLLLYYYYY appreciate if someone explained EVERYTHING so i could understand. ummm,...if someone is willing to, just to let you know, don't just give me sentences, tell me ACCUALLY how to do it, with sentences as examples to help...please and ty...(I hate have...too hard!! grrr)XD

Elizabeth · 4 Sep 2006

I have to ask doinkies!
ドインキーズを聞かなくてはいけません！
or
ドインキーズを聞かなければなりません！
or
ドインキーズを聞かなければだめ（です）！

I've never heard なければだめ、although other variations is the more formal-sounding 聞かなくてはならない（なりません）、or 聞かないいけない（な）、or
聞かないとだめ。。。These should all be ドインキーズに instead of を by the way.

epigene · 4 Sep 2006

Elizabeth said:
I've never heard なければだめ、although another variation is the more formal-sounding 聞かなくてはならない（なりません）。These should all be ドインキーズに instead of を by the way.

なければだめ is OK, just informal.
~なければだめよ！
~なければだめじゃない！
~なければだめだ！
(All essentially meaning the same thing.)

Just, を should be に as you say.

nice gaijin · 4 Sep 2006

Attached is a grammar printout I made a year or so ago to act as a supplementary handout for my Japanese class. We used the Genki textbooks and I felt that the authors spread out these grammar structures across the books (Genki I and II) in such a way that prevented some students from seeing how they related to each other, so I decided to try to explain them all in a single body of work.

Looking back, my examples are pretty unnatural, but they should give a basic understanding of grammar forms, which was the original intention.

Elizabeth · 4 Sep 2006

A lot of these are very close, I only changed or inserted a few bits to give it some extra trimmings or clarify the situation around the edges.

I have to go to work...
shigoto e ikaremasu (仕事へ行かれます)
notes: using the passive form of iku

仕事へ・に行かなければならない (+ your choice of any others in the rest of this thread)

I have a pen. (A pen exists..)
pen wa arimasu (ぺんはあります）

ぺんがありますぺんはあります has a weird emphasis to me that there is
something lacking or that you don't have, a pencil or chalk or crayon....

haven't you gone already?
anata wa ikimasen ka? (貴方は行きませんか?)[/quote]
I'm assuming this is meant like the person is still around (まだここにいるの？）
and not that they haven't ever been to the place....In that case
まだ行かないの？ (Still you haven't gone?) should be sufficient.

"You haven't left yet" or "You're still here" is probably more natural English, but too much deviation from the literal, for now, may also be even more confusion than we already have....

...I'm sure there are nicer, more colloquial ways (if these are even correct) I answered to try to test myself. So hopefully someone will chime in with how wrong or right I got it.

Elizabeth · 4 Sep 2006

epigene said:
なければだめ is OK, just informal.
~なければだめよ！
~なければだめじゃない！
~なければだめだ！
(All essentially meaning the same thing.)
Just, を should be に as you say.

He, he thanks Epigene....I knew all I needed was an informal dictionary.
It made sense from てはだめ just not anything I had ever come across. One more thing to try out.

Mike Cash · 4 Sep 2006

Tomii515 said:
I think I posted 2 forums about this a couple months ago...Well, no one really helped, at least, I didn't think so....

I would just like to point out that there is a huge difference between:

1. ...no one really helped...

and

2. ...I wasn't able to understand the explanations...

Saying that no one helped doesn't really encourage people to try to help you again. You might give some thought to how you phrase things in order to encourage all the nice, friendly, helpful folks here to keep on being nice, friendly, and helpful.

Tomii515 · 4 Sep 2006

Mike Cash said:
I would just like to point out that there is a huge difference between:
1. ...no one really helped...
and
2. ...I wasn't able to understand the explanations...
Saying that no one helped doesn't really encourage people to try to help you again. You might give some thought to how you phrase things in order to encourage all the nice, friendly, helpful folks here to keep on being nice, friendly, and helpful.

I don't knwo any other way to put it. I'm trying to be ncie, but would you rather me lie and say everyone helped and i know it all now? Because, everything they said, I didn't understand...And i know they are trying to help, which is a very nice thing to do, but I don't understand what they are talking about...they just say sentences and expect me to know exatly what the "have" part is... But yeah...

Nice_Gaijin, when i tried to open the thingy, a weirdo thing came up with a million letters and numbers..

Mike Cash · 4 Sep 2006

Tomii515 said:
I don't knwo any other way to put it. I'm trying to be ncie

I know you're trying to be nice and that you appreciate people trying to help you.

If I thought otherwise, I would have reamed you a new one instead of nicely pointing out that your choice of phrasing was unfortunate in this instance and something you might wish to be more careful with in the future.

Elizabeth · 4 Sep 2006

And i know they are trying to help, which is a very nice thing to do, but I don't understand what they are talking about...they just say sentences and expect me to know exatly what the "have" part is... But yeah...

We aren't professional textbook editors either and we aren't here to walk you systematically and thoroughly through every step in the process + these review sessions which is exactly why virtually everyone else uses a book at some point and keeps bugging you to get one too.

Tomii515 · 4 Sep 2006

Elizabeth said:
We aren't professional textbook editors either and we aren't here to walk you systematically and thoroughly through every step in the process + these review sessions which is exactly why everyone else uses a book and keeps bugging you to get one too.

I would, but I can't. The only books I can get, are at my Walden books., and they don't have textbooks. The best textbook there is Japanese Step by Step...and that's not that good... My mom wont order Genki off Amazon cause she doesn't use her credit card online...maybe my dad can gte one off e-bay...i guess...Is Genki a really good one? I heard Genki, and something else...I know Doinkies used this book...Yo....soimethign

Elizabeth · 4 Sep 2006

Tomii515 said:
I would, but I can't. The only books I can get, are at my Walden books., and they don't have textbooks.

Your library doesn't either, right ? But they can still get a copy from another library in the meantime. Just give them the information (title, publisher, etc) from the Amazon site. Genki is highly rated but so are a lot of others. Pretty much anything is going to be better than this, eh ?....

namakemono · 4 Sep 2006

Tomii-san

I agree with MikeCash-san and Elizabeth-san. That way is the best way for leaning Japanese efficiently. Good book for learners or Good teachers who was trained for the Japanese educator help you.
I'm respecting you. You are still 13 years old. When I was your age, I've remembered just an English alphabet and some sentence as like this "This is a pen." "Is this a pen?". And at the time, I had not enough money too. Unlike me you are so earnest before everything.

In this board, there are so many people who are good Japanese speaker like as nice_gaijin-san, leonmarino-san, glen-san, doinkies-san, Elizabeth-san...and you. This is not empty complement.
I think so really. I saw somewhere nice_gaijin-san say that Native-speaker to be not always good teacher. I agree with his opinion. Actually I forgot how to learn Japanese and I've not known Japanese grammatical term such as "particle". But I want to help you as much as possible.
But it may be sometimes...

doinkies · 5 Sep 2006

Elizabeth said:
Your library doesn't either, right ? But they can still get a copy from another library in the meantime. Just give them the information (title, publisher, etc) from the Amazon site. Genki is highly rated but so are a lot of others. Pretty much anything is going to be better than this, eh ?....

I agree with Elizabeth...go to Amazon's listing of Genki, write down the information about the book (title, authors, publisher, ISBN number...), then go to your library and ask them to see if there's a copy of Genki in another library that they can get for you to borrow, and give them that information. If they cannot find a copy, you may want to try another book such as Yookoso/ようこそ (the book doinkies' Japanese class used).
Also, to view nice gaijin's PDF file, download Adobe Reader or Foxit Reader (google for those; doinkies prefers Foxit Reader since it's lighter).

Elizabeth · 5 Sep 2006

If they cannot find a copy, you may want to try another book such as Yookoso/ようこそ (the book doinkies' Japanese class used).

ようこそ is a wonderful beginner's text that I've used over years of self-study and still refer to quite frequently, as I do the Japanese for Busy People and みんなの日本語 series. You're always putting down Waldens, Tomii, but even they carry great phrase/dictionary packages, Living Languages, Barrons, etc. You'll appreciate it when you go to Japan for the first time and have to find space to carry this stuff with you.

Mike Cash · 5 Sep 2006

Practically anything beats relying on the hit-n-miss stuff created by well-intentioned amateurs on the internet.

Mike Cash · 5 Sep 2006

Tomii515 said:
My mom wont order Genki off Amazon cause she doesn't use her credit card online...

A more determined and enterprising young man would have gone to Amazon's help page: Amazon.com Help: Payment, Pricing & Promotions

and learned:

"Payment Methods We Accept
Amazon.com accepts American Express, Diners Club, Discover, JCB, MasterCard, Eurocard, Visa, Visa Check Cards, Amazon.com gift certificates, payment directly from your bank account, and checks, money orders, or cashier's checks denominated in U.S. dollars and drawn on a U.S. bank. Additionally, we accept Borders Gift Cards and Waldenbooks Gift Cards as payment for qualifying orders. "

Show that to your mother.

Tomii515 · 5 Sep 2006

Thanks! yoosoko was the yo... i was talking about xD Waldens is good, it's where i get all ym stuffs, just not for textbooks cause it has none, exsept for Japanese Strp by Step, or some other weirdo thignys. It's very good for dictionary though! I got an extremly good dictionary theat help with knaji, hiragana and katakana, and words, and within words, grammer

doinkies · 5 Sep 2006

Yeah...though I prefer using an actual textbook rather than things like the Living Language series. Before doinkies took my Japanese class, I tried to self-study with that Living Language Japanese book, and I always forgot things, and even in the higher lessons it STILL uses romaji, even though it teaches kana and kanji it NEVER writes vocabulary or sentences in kana+kanji. So I wouldn't recommend that. (Yookoso uses romaji in the Getting Started section at the beginning which is like seven chapters long, but after that it uses no romaji at all, instead it writes all vocab and sentences in kana+kanji with furigana for new kanji. Genki doesn't use romaji at all, even in beginning chapters.)

So I'd rather you either tell your mom that Amazon accepts checks too (as Mike Cash said), or do what doinkies and Elizabeth said.

Elizabeth · 5 Sep 2006

doinkies said:
Yeah...though I prefer using an actual textbook rather than things like the Living Language series. Before doinkies took my Japanese class, I tried to self-study with that Living Language Japanese book, and I always forgot things, and even in the higher lessons it STILL uses romaji, even though it teaches kana and kanji it NEVER writes vocabulary or sentences in kana+kanji.

It isn't a full-scale text but I have used the Japanese Coursebook as the formatting encourages -- for a quick and easy pocket guide reference with logically grouped lists of translated English sentences, time and date terms, dialogues, self tests etc. Hiragana charts were presented at the end which made me think they may have been in more advanced volumes. The Youkoso second edition doesn't use romaji at all.

After reaching the point of fluency it isn't a problem to go back and forth between different writing methods but I agree from a beginner's perspective you need to continuously build on what has come before with minimal retrogressing or reliance of furigana with kanji that has already been presented.

yukio_michael · 5 Sep 2006

Thank's Elizabeth & nice-gaijin for your corrections!

ごめん！ Have?

やった～！

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ガイジン娘。

やった～！

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ガイジン娘。

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