お礼の申し上げよう / いつまでも / ではないか / できん / じゃん

Hi,


1. お礼の申し上げようもありません。

Translation given: "I can never thank you enough."

I don't understand the grammar of this sentence. I assume it's お礼・の・申し上げよう・も・ありません, and I assume that 申し上げよう is from 申し上げる, but after that I'm lost.


2. The topic is whether children should be exposed to death and other bad things in children's stories.

いつまでもまだ早すぎると言って、そんな場面を避ける のはいいことではないんじゃないでしょうか。

I understand this roughly to mean "She [the author's wife] says that it's still too early [for children of such a young age to learn such things], and thinks / wonders whether it's best to avoid those kinds of scenes [grim/sad scenes in children's stories]."

a) Does いつまでも mean something like "for sure", or is it somehow describing the timeframe in which the rest of the comments apply?

b) I am overwhelmed by ではないんじゃないでしょうか. Even one じゃない or でしょうか usually confuses me as to its exact nuance. What is the purpose of all this verbiage?


3. The author has mentioned a modern trend for Japanese girls to use masculine words like おれ and 僕. Then:

女の子はていねいな言葉を使うと思っていたので、友達 に聞いてみると、自分は使わないけれど、別にかまわな いのではないかと答えました。

I think this means: "I thought girls used polite language, so I tried asking my friends, who answered that they don't use (such masculine words) themselves, but don't particularly mind (the use of such words by girls)."

With ではないか, are the writer's friends tentatively expressing their own opinion in a "don't you think...?" kind of way?


4. わしにはまったく理解できん。

My translation: "I can't understand it at all."

I assume できん = できない? Does the form できん have any particular nuance?


5. 女の子が「おれ」とか「僕」を使っても、別にいいじゃ ん。

My translation: "It's perfectly fine for girls to use words like おれ and 僕"

a) Is the last part of this essentially 使ってもいい with 別に added for emphasis?

b) Is じゃん = じゃない? What is its purpose here?

1)
the -masu stem of a verb + よう: the way to do
申し上げようもない: there is no way to say~

６ 動詞の連用形の下に付いて複合語をつくる。

②…する方法、…するやり方などの意を表す。「ほかのし―もある」「しかり―が悪い」

Click to expand...

よう - goo辞書

2) a)
The latter. いつまでも modifies 避ける.

b)
いいことではない is the core of her opinion. んじゃないでしょうか is used to soften the tone, roughly meaning "I think".

取られる / 今度 / なんて / 定食

3)
友達 is a female friend in this case, therfore she said 自分は使わない.
かまわない means 使ってもかまわない.
Probably she said something like 別に（使っても）かまわないんじゃない, i.e., "I think it's allowed to use such words" in the real conversation.

4)
It sounds as an old man's words along with わし.

5) a)
Yes. It's the same to 別に使ってもいいじゃん.

b)
Sounds as a young people's words, as opposed to できん.

いつまでも simply means "forever" (literally: "until when", with "when" being a time-specific place holder).

You've encountered the same sort of thing with:

どうしても
だれでも
どこまでも
なんでも
だれにでも
どこにでも
どこも
どこにも
Etc etc etc etc

It is a case of the question word not being a question word but a place holding indicator of what sort of information goes there.

So even though they are considerably temporally separated, the いつまでも should be thought of as joined with そんな場面を避ける,

The first じゃない is straightforward and negates いいこと. The second one is like the sentence ending "no?" seeking agreement (such as we associate with stereotyped portrayals of Francophones speaking English).

It takes forever to type that much on an iPhone and it looks like I got beat!

Thank you.

Toritoribe said:

the -masu stem of a verb + よう: the way to do
申し上げようもない: there is no way to say~

Click to expand...

Apologies if I've asked this before, but is this 申し上げよう grammatically unrelated to the volitional form of 申し上げる, which I understand would also be 申し上げよう?

Toritoribe said:

2) a)
The latter. いつまでも modifies 避ける.

Click to expand...

I'm afraid I do not understand (2) at all. First, it seems that my translation is completely wrong, and she is actually saying that protecting children is not a good idea. Is that correct? I simply despair of ではない/じゃない. Anyway, let's suppose the core of the sentence is:

いつまでも ... そんな場面を避ける のはいいことではない "It's not a good thing [for children] to avoid these scenes forever."

Is that right? If so, then how does まだ早すぎると言って fit in?

Toritoribe said:

3)
友達 is a female friend in this case, therfore she said 自分は使わない.
かまわない means 使ってもかまわない.
Probably she said something like 別に（使っても）かまわないんじゃない, i.e., "I think it's allowed to use such words" in the real conversation

Click to expand...

Is the following correct?

"I thought girls used polite language, so I tried asking my friend, who answered that she didn't use those masculine words herself, but that she thought it was OK for girls generally to use such words."

If it's still incorrect, would it be possible for you to give me a correct translation of the whole sentence?

Toritoribe said:

b)
Sounds as a young people's words, as opposed to できん.

Click to expand...

What purpose does じゃ ん serve in this sentence?

Imagining まだ早すぎる in quotation marks should clear this up for you.

よう in 申し上げよう as imperative is a part of conjugate while よう in 申し上げよう（がない） is 様 (meaning way, state, etc.) is a noun modified by 申し上げ.
様 is similar to 方 (e.g. 言い方）.

eeky said:

Apologies if I've asked this before, but is this 申し上げよう grammatically unrelated to the volitional form of 申し上げる, which I understand would also be 申し上げよう?

Click to expand...

Right. It's nothing to do with the volitional form. In fact, the two forms are seemingly the same in ichidan verbs like 上げる, but they are different in godan verbs or kuru-irregular verb. (Incidentally, "the way to say 申し上げよう" and "the volitional 申し上げよう" have different pitch accents.)
e.g.
言う(godan)
the way to say: 言いよう
the volitional: 言おう

来る(irregular)
the way to come: 来[き]よう
the volitional: 来[こ]よう

eeky said:

I'm afraid I do not understand (2) at all. First, it seems that my translation is completely wrong, and she is actually saying that protecting children is not a good idea. Is that correct? I simply despair of ではない/じゃない. Anyway, let's suppose the core of the sentence is:
いつまでも ... そんな場面を避ける のはいいことではない "It's not a good thing [for children] to avoid these scenes forever."
Is that right? If so, then how does まだ早すぎると言って fit in?

Click to expand...

Yes. She said "to avoid these scenes FOREVER is NOT good idea".

まだ早すぎると言って、そんな場面を避ける
to avoid these scenes, saying it's too early for children

eeky said:

Is the following correct?
"I thought girls used polite language, so I tried asking my friend, who answered that she didn't use those masculine words herself, but that she thought it was OK for girls generally to use such words."

Click to expand...

Correct.

eeky said:

What purpose does じゃ ん serve in this sentence?

Click to expand...

じゃない, as you interpreted correctly.

Thanks everyone... I get it now.

... except ... in 女の子が「おれ」とか「僕」を使っても、別にいいじゃ ん。 I still do not really understand what じゃん means ... I mean, I know it means じゃない, and that it is young person's speech, but I don't know what じゃない itself means here. I believe it cannot be a negative after いい, unlike the earlier いいことではない (is that correct?), so does it mean "don't you think", or "I think", or something? As I say, this じゃない stuff just drives me nuts ...

It might be easier if it were presented as its own separate sentence afterwards instead of being incorporated into the preceding sentence.

Think of the sentence as ending with 別にいい. That's clear enough. Now imagine the invitation for negation (contrary opinion) in a separate sentence after that:

そうではないか？
そう思いませんか?
違いますか?
Etc

Now, this being an extraordinarily common feature of speech means that it is also a prime candidate for contraction or elision. The minimal bits required for comprehension boil down to じゃん.....whose function is known and commonplace enough that the mere tacking it on serves the purpose.

It really is VERY common in daily speech. I think if you were here where you could make practical use of all the hard work you have put into your studies it would click for you in no time at all.

Thanks Mike, I like the "invitation for negation (contrary opinion)" description. I find it worrying, though, that I cannot reliably tell the difference between this meaning and the real negation of a statement (e.g., in #2 in this thread, I thought that the speaker was fundamentally saying it was a good thing). However, that worry aside, does ではない/じゃない/じゃん always mean either of these two things: (i) proposing something as true and inviting contrary opinion (perhaps rhetorically), or (ii) actual negation of a statement?

ではない is always (ii) "actual negation". （の）ではないか can be (i).
(When ではない is said in the rising intonation, it can be (i) as a negative question "Isn't it~?". Although じゃない/じゃありません is more common for the case.)

じゃん is never used as (ii). You can think this as a kind of sentence final particle.

The most confusing one would be （ん）じゃない/（ん）じゃないか, I think.

Thanks Toritoribe, that is helpful.