Fourth Newspaper Translation: 新しいコロナウイルス 手を洗うこととマスクが大切
- Thread starter Zizka
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- 5 May 2013
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に can mark almost any object of a verb except the direct object, which is of course marked with を.
That includes indirect objects and almost everything that would be an object of a preposition in English.
In that way, に acts like most English prepositions and can often be translated as them... on, at, by, to, for, in ...
That includes indirect objects and almost everything that would be an object of a preposition in English.
In that way, に acts like most English prepositions and can often be translated as them... on, at, by, to, for, in ...
- 14 Apr 2016
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- #78
You mean the indirect object I think. I've never heard of に to mark other objects besides the indirect objects. Actually, I used to think 'direct objects' and 'indirect objects' were the only objects I had to concern myself with as far as 'objects' were concerned.
So the 「に」doesn't indicate a point in time, we've cleared that up. I don't think it's the indirect object either as 「期間」can't really be the recipient of the verb here. So that's out too.
So I would, for example, put 'on' and then use に to indicate where something is. Same thing with other prepositions (below, besides, beneath, etc...). I think this is に(4) in the dictionary. The rest of the definition doesn't apply to my situation however I don't think.
「 客が少ない期間にたくさんのお金を使った。」
You mentioned that 「少ない期間」did mean 'a little time' so I was right about that.
So that's where I'm at now.
- 12 Oct 2004
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期間 specifically means "a period/span of time", not just "time". "Time" in the sense you appear to be using it in all of your translations (i.e. to have/not have time) would be 時間.
This connects to the original ウィルスがついた手 sentence, but why are you not even considering the possibility that 客が少ない could be a relative clause modifying 期間?
This connects to the original ウィルスがついた手 sentence, but why are you not even considering the possibility that 客が少ない could be a relative clause modifying 期間?
- 5 May 2013
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I'm inclined to call all objects of に "indirect objects" in Japanese grammar. However, in English grammar an "indirect object" is an unmarked object that is the recipient of the verb. "I gave father a gift", "I baked John some cookies". In "I gave a gift to father" or "I baked some cookies for John", or also "I got it from him", "The cookies are in the jar" ... those are called objects of prepositions.
In Japanese they're all the same thing, since they are all marked with the same postposition particle に. So, it's fine by me to call them indirect objects, and that's how I consider them. I remembered you not long ago mentioning about indirect objects needing to be recipients, which is true in English. That's why I wanted to be clear that these objects include more than English indirect objects.
(Actually you just said it again. But objects of に are not required to be recipients).
Hmm. What do you think of,
若いあいだにいろいろなことを体験した。
１時間のあいだに報告を書きました。
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- 5 May 2013
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Maybe so, but if that's the case, then who is the subject of 使う? It's a very strange sentence if it's the usual implied "I".
Either way, the usage of 期間に is still the same idea, only what kind of 期間 it is would be different.
- 22 Feb 2008
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Bentenmusume-san gave an important hint, which is related to my intention to make that example sentence.
As already pointed out, this is the key of your confusion. に can indicate not only the point of time but also a period of time, e.g., 日本の産業は明治時代に発展した Japanese industry developed in/during/through Meiji period.
- 12 Oct 2004
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Why would it be strange? And why would the unstated subject have to be "I"? It could be any unstated/implied subject, including plenty that make sense.SomeCallMeChris said:
edited to add: I think it would be "stranger" if 期間 were unmodified by anything. If you're perceiving it as just "a certain period of time" it would have to be 一定の期間 or something like that. 期間にたくさんのお金を使った doesn't really make sense.
- 22 Feb 2008
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Is that always so?
普段はとても忙しいので、なかなかお金を使う機会がない。買い物が趣味なので、使えるときにはたくさん使ってしまう。だからこの前も、客が少ない期間にたくさんのお金を使った。
EDIT:
Ooops! Bentenmusume-san beats me!
- 14 Apr 2016
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- #85
「 客が少ない期間にたくさんのお金を使った。」
Ok so suppose that 期間に means 'a period of time' and suppose the subject of the sentence is implied for the verb 使った. What is the subject then? It's something we'd know from the context, right?
(not forgetting your questions Chris, just dealing with things one at a time).
Ok so suppose that 期間に means 'a period of time' and suppose the subject of the sentence is implied for the verb 使った. What is the subject then? It's something we'd know from the context, right?
(not forgetting your questions Chris, just dealing with things one at a time).
- 5 May 2013
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Hmmmm. Okay. I had imagined the speaker was someone who was part of the store, which made it sound strange. I hadn't thought of the scenario you give.
- 22 Feb 2008
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Actually, two different interpretations are possible for that sentence as same as ライバル店が人をたくさん集めるため、特売セールを行っています。. That's my intention.
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No, it doesn't have to be "I", and in fact I thought it wasn't. I was just puzzled by what kind of subject would make sense. Maybe I lack imagination. Toritoribe's story makes "I" work, and the same story in the third person makes "he" work.
No, I always thought it was 少ない期間 , although I was just thinking that I don't think this could mean "little time" at all, not in the sense of a short period of time, but would have to mean "(only) a few times".
I don't think there's a grammatical interpretation of 「客が少ない」in 「客が少ない期間にたくさんのお金を使った 」that doesn't involve 少ない modifying 期間, so an unmodified 期間 is out of the question.
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- 12 Oct 2004
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Sorry, I just realize I misspoke/misinterpreted when I suggested you were perceiving it as an unmodified 期間. Please ignore that part of my post.
- 14 Apr 2016
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- 22 Feb 2008
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I believe our replies already answered it.
- 5 May 2013
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Yes, but somewhat indirectly though.
And to be clear, I believe you when you said there are two interpretations it's on precisely this subject. (⇐ pun not intended, but now that I've noticed, I'll leave it...)
That is, subj. of 使う can be 客 as Zizka and I originally surmised, or subj. of 使う can be unnamed person, as in your story or any other story that fits.
(At least, I didn't notice anything else in the sentence that can be interpreted two ways).
- 5 May 2013
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Here Toritoribe-san explains that there are two interpretations (which I believe must refer to interpretations of the subject of 使う).
jref.com
Here I explicitly name one of those interpretations.
jref.com
The other interpretation you should already know about.
Here is where Torotoribe-san gives a story that can explain the subject:
jref.com
Fourth Newspaper Translation: 新しいコロナウイルス 手を洗うこととマスクが大切
Oh I thought I had mentioned it. 客 is the subject of 使った, the verb of the sentence. I don’t know how に relates to 期間 in this instance which probably explains why I’m stuck at it.
jref.com
Here I explicitly name one of those interpretations.
Fourth Newspaper Translation: 新しいコロナウイルス 手を洗うこととマスクが大切
Oh I thought I had mentioned it. 客 is the subject of 使った, the verb of the sentence. I don’t know how に relates to 期間 in this instance which probably explains why I’m stuck at it.
jref.com
The other interpretation you should already know about.
Here is where Torotoribe-san gives a story that can explain the subject:
Fourth Newspaper Translation: 新しいコロナウイルス 手を洗うこととマスクが大切
Oh I thought I had mentioned it. 客 is the subject of 使った, the verb of the sentence. I don’t know how に relates to 期間 in this instance which probably explains why I’m stuck at it.
jref.com
- 14 Apr 2016
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- #95
Ok, so two interpretations are possible is what is assumed to be said about the sentence to be translated.
So I think here you're saying that both 'he' and 'I' could work as elliptical subjects.
My question was whether or not any subject can be an ellipse in Japanese. Based on what I've just read, I think so. Turns out I had missed the answer but it wasn't in the previously quoted articles, it was from bentenmusume:
" It could be any unstated/implied subject, including plenty that make sense. "
See this:
Might tell you something as an experienced (potentially bilingual), but for someone who just started reading two weeks ago this doesn't mean anything to me. I have no idea what I'm supposed to take away from that Japanese quote, not by a long shot. I'm struggling to read very basic easy articles and from then I have a full explanatory quote in Japanese. I know it's meant to help but it goes right over my head. I think you're overestimating my ability here by quite a lot.
- 22 Feb 2008
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Yes, that's right. And for the latter case, it's obvious who the subject of 少ない is.
- 5 May 2013
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This is a fundamental element of Japanese grammar, usually covered in the first chapter. It didn't even occur to me that you could not know this.
A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar is a great reference, but it is not a textbook. It's an excellent companion to a textbook, but not a replacement for one. It covers very specific grammars very well, but it does not cover overall structure and concepts very well at all.
普段はとても忙しいので、なかなかお金を使う機会がない。買い物が趣味なので、使えるときにはたくさん使ってしまう。だからこの前も、客が少ない期間にたくさんのお金を使った。
"I'm normally very busy, so I don't get many chances to spend money. I enjoy shopping, so when I can spend money I end up spending a lot. That's why earlier ... "
and then the example sentence.
Also, NHK News Easy is not "basic", it's fully fledged native Japanese. It's "easy" in comparison to a regular newspaper article, because it limits the vocabulary it uses. It is not, however, anywhere near as easy as your typical learning materials.
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I wasn't trying to suggest you should use a textbook instead of asking questions or that your questions are unwelcome here. I'm just trying to suggest that you might want to take on the fundamentals before going for more advanced learning strategies.
- 12 Oct 2004
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It's not really an "explanatory quote". It's an extension of the original sentence that Toritoribeさん provided to give (one example of) additional context that would clarify how to interpret the original sentence 客が少ない期間にたくさんのお金を使った。I do see how the additional sentences might be difficult to interpret if you're at a level where you're struggling with the original article.
As for what can be elided/omitted in Japanese, the answer is: pretty much everything. Not just any subject, or any object, but any anything really that's clear from context. (This is why Japanese is often described as a "high context" language.) A single verb can form a complete, fully grammatical Japanese sentence.
Consider exchanges like this in English (let's say they're between two friends):
A: Are you going to the party tonight?
B: Yeah, I'm going!
A: I have some cake in the fridge. Want some?
B: Sure, I'll have some!
Idiomatic Japanese equivalents might be:
A: 今夜のパーティー、行く？
B: うん、行く！
A: 冷蔵庫にケーキがあるんだけど、食べる？
B: 食べる！
The Japanese versions are absolutely the equivalent of the English sentences, despite the lack of subject/object/anything in the second line. This is because Japanese not just can, but almost invariably does omit information that is clear from the context. This is a very basic point, but I thought it might be worth reinforcing.
I agree with most of what you're saying, but I wouldn't go this far. It's Japanese that's designed to be easy to read by foreigners, children, etc. Not just limited vocabulary, but also simplified grammar and a focus on spelling out concepts in a very simple fashion.
And "learning materials" can encompass a variety of levels. NHK News Easy isn't as easy as a first-year textbook, no, but it's certainly "easier" by any objective measure than, say, reading comprehension materials for intermediate-to-advanced learners at the JLPT N2/N1 level, since these levels actually often test on actual native materials, not artificially simplified ones.
I'm not entirely sure why this is your takeaway from four pages of people trying their best to answer your questions. You've made your opinions on the teacher-student relationship clear in the past, and I believe I understand where you're coming from, but please realize that we're all just human beings who are posting here because we (on some level) enjoy talking about the Japanese language. Chris-san, Toritoribe-san, or myself expressing a bit of surprise/frustration from time to time is not a personal attack on you.Zizka said:
Clearly, we respect the effort you're putting into learning the language, and find your questions intelligent and worthwhile. That's why we're engaging with you. Of course, you're not obligated to post here and you can leave whenever you like if you feel like you're not getting anything out of it (as could we). But just saying "Thanks. Bye." because of one offhand comment at the end of a four-page thread seems a bit excessive, no?
