Help with this sentence

[Narktor]

Besides that, I just stumbled another sentence which seems ambiguous to me:
Its exercise 5, sentence 3.
To me, it can say:
1) When we grow old, everybodys teeth and eyes worsen.
2) When we grow old, every teeth and eye worsen.

For the first version, I think a "no" after "dare" would be necessary, but maybe its just left out?
For the second version, it seems right from my grammatical knowledge, but it sounds very unusual.

 

[Toritoribe]

Hmm, then maybe its:
"If I have a map, I can go by myself even if its a new place/a place of the first time"
Of course this version makes more sense, but I really struggle to make a phrase basically saying "place of for the first time" into "new place/place which I haven't visited yet".

Or maybe I'm entirely wrong again xD
Thanks for the help and also for giving me a chance to figure it out by myself through your hints
But above standing interpretation is the only alternative I can come up with right now ^^

Your interpretation is correct. The dictionary contains example sentences for that purpose, no?
There is also an entry for 初めての in the dictionary.
初めてのの英語・英訳 - goo辞書 英和和英 - goo辞書

Besides that, I just stumbled another sentence which seems ambiguous to me:
Its exercise 5, sentence 3.
To me, it can say:
1) When we grow old, everybodys teeth and eyes worsen.
2) When we grow old, every teeth and eye worsen.

For the first version, I think a "no" after "dare" would be necessary, but maybe its just left out?
For the second version, it seems right from my grammatical knowledge, but it sounds very unusual.

誰でも is an adverbial phrase there; "for everybody".
As for #2, どの is used for that meaning, not 誰.

 

[Narktor]

Thank you a lot!
As for the dictionary entries, yes now that you say it I think I understand it. Since I can't read the kanji yet, I'm not using japanese dictionaries a lot and so I didn't pay much attention to all the different meanings since...yeah, I didn't realize that they are all "hajimete" with different meanings, expressed through different kanji ^^

I'm learning the kanji, but it really takes tremendous amounts of effort and time xD

 

[Toritoribe]

Since I can't read the kanji yet, I'm not using japanese dictionaries a lot and so I didn't pay much attention to all the different meanings

That's exactly the reason why you were confusing 都会 "urban area" with 東海 "Tōkai region" also in this thread. Even if you can't read kanji, I believe you can recognize the difference between 初 and 始 relatively easily in your dictionary. (Or, if the dictionary only contains romaji words, I strongly recommend not using it anymore.)

 

[Narktor]

There is some uncertainty with the following:
IMG_20160403_0001_NEW.pdf - DocDroid
In the upper left corner, the dialogue after "2)", the guy says "...かえったら、まず て を あらうように すると かぜ を ひきませんですよ"
I have problems with "suruto"
I think it means "suru + to", which would translate into conditional phrase.
"when you come home, If you wash your hands first (after coming home), you surely won't/don't catch a cold."
I'm unsure though, because in my grammar, for this kind of expression I would expect "shite iru" instead of "suruto".
Since the guy describes a regular action/commodity, I think he should say "te-form + iru". This way the conditional phrase would still work from a grammatical perspective (I've learnt that the part before the "to" particle must be in dictionary form to become the conditional phrase)
and the requirements for expressing a regularity/commodity would be met as well.

Just for reference, I've uploaded the page from my grammar here (unfortunately its in german):
IMG_20160403_0002_NEW.pdf - DocDroid
Its at the very top. "Wörtberuch Form" means "dictionary form".
What's also confusing to me here is that in the box, you see "youni shimasu", without any te-form or the like. Then, the examples show only "-youni shite imasu" and "-youni shite kudasai".
I first concluded that "dictionary form/nai form + youni shimasu" only appears in these 2 forms (at least until I learn something new about it).
But now I have this case and I don't know what to make of it ^^

I've also learnt the word "suruto". It means "(and) then".
This could somehow work as well, but it really doesn't feel right:
"...when you come home, first wash your hands, then you won't/don't catch a cold".
This also seems wrong to me because the "suruto" stands in front of the komma, not after it.
If it belonged to the phrase "...you won't/don't catch a cold" I would expect it to be grouped with this phrase by standing on this phrases side of the komma. ^^
Furthermore, I don't see how the "-youni" is supposed to work here in this case.
So far, I've only learnt "-youni" constructions without "shimasu" which cooperate with potential forms or potential verbs (wakarimasu etc.). But this isn't the case here. So "arauyouni" kind of rules out that "suruto" can be anything else than the ru-form of "shimasu". At least by my knowledge ^^

 

[Toritoribe]

The reason ～ようにする is used there is because it's the future tense. That's an advice to her who doesn't have a habit "when she comes home, she washes her hands first", therefore future tense is used. ～ようにしていると also works fine there, but it expresses a precept in general; people who have a habit "when they come home, they wash their hands first" won't catch a cold, not specific to her.
The same goes for the examples in the textbook. The two examples in #1 are both the speaker's present habitual action they are really doing, so ～ようにしています is used.
～てください is a gentle/tender imperative in #2. A strong imperative is ～ようにしなさい, and there's no -te form.

 

[Narktor]

The reason ～ようにする is used there is because it's the future tense. That's an advice to her who doesn't have a habit "when she comes home, she washes her hands first", therefore future tense is used. ～ようにしていると also works fine there, but it expresses a precept in general; people who have a habit "when they come home, they wash their hands first" won't catch a cold, not specific to her.
The same goes for the examples in the textbook. The two examples in #1 are both the speaker's present habitual action they are really doing, so ～ようにしています is used.
～てください is a gentle/tender imperative in #2. A strong imperative is ～ようにしなさい, and there's no -te form.

Thanks a lot, once more!

 

[Narktor]

2 more questions

FIRST
Once more on this page:
IMG_20160403_0001_NEW.pdf - DocDroid
The dialogues in the upper half, dialogue number 4.
The womans response:
"あさおきられなかったの"
The particle "no" in the end.
In my whole grammar, there is no explanation for this kind of "no" that seems to appear at random.
In this place, I could imagine that it replaces "kara", because her response seems to be the explanation for her being late.
But again, this function of "no" hasn't been discussed in detail yet in my grammar, but I could sometimes notice its appearance in my exercises and of course in spoken japanese in the animes I watch ^^
So, I would at least like to know what this "no" does here xD

SECOND
It's about verbs in general.
IMG_20160404_0001_NEW.pdf - DocDroid
Exercise 3, sentence 2.
The correct input for the bracket is "naoru".
I think I already know the answer to my question, but I'm asking just for reassurance:
"naorimasu", at least with the meaning it has here, doesn't convey an intention, right?
That's why it doesn't need to be transformed into an explicite potential form *naoremasu/naoreru?

Its really new for me to categorize verbs after such semantical aspects. My language doesn't do that, or at least it has little to no effect on its grammatical properties. That's why it's right now relatively hard for me to follow the verbs grammatical behavior and why it behaves like this and not like that, in this context of the "-youni" constructions right now.^

I hope my english is still somehow understandable xD

EDIT:
In context of my second question:
The semantics of a negative verb-form seem to be non-intentional by definition?
Because I can't find any negative intentional verb forms in my grammar (at least not in the chapters I've worked through so far), and concerning the "-youni" constructions, whenever there's a negative verb form partaking in the construction, it's always simply the "nai-form".

 

[Toritoribe]

1)
Refer to the section The 「の」 particle as explanation in the page linked below.
Noun-related Particles | Learn Japanese

2)
Didn't you mention about the dictionary form before ように in your previous post? 治[なお]ります is not a dictionary form.
治る is a non-volitional intransitive verb, so it doesn't have the potential form. You can use 治せる; the potential form of the transitive counterpart 治す.

3)
For confirmation, do you mean you think the ～ます form expresses the speaker's will/intention?

 

[Narktor]

To 2)
Yes, sry that I caused unnecessary confusion here ^^
To be precise, I only wanted to refer to the verb itself, apart from the given form.
So maybe I should've written it this way:

"the verb なお-"?

The reason I accidentally referred to the -masu form here was because I'm used to the -masu form as the "basic" form, because I learn all the verbs in the -masu form in my book. It just slipped out, so to say ^^
Thanks for your explanation about the intransitive nature of the verb, my uncertainties in that respect have been resolved now

To 3)
Not necessarily the -masu form. In context of the "-youni" forms it now has become important for me to be able to identify verbs which carry a volitional/intentional character unless they are transformed into their potential forms, like "およぐ ->およげる". As an example: "やっと およげるように なりました" -> "I finally can swim/learnt to swim"

So no, I'm not tieing the volitional/intentional aspect to the -masu form.^^ I tie it to the verbs semantics, but I still feel kind of unsure in determining wether these semantics carry a volitional/intentional character or not^^ That's basically what I wanted to say
I hope I could clear things up a little with this ^^

Thank you!

 

[Toritoribe]

治る and 治す are different verbs, not inflections of a single verb such like "治－". Haven't you learned about the concept "transitive-intransitive verb pair" yet?

泳ぐ is a volitional intransitive verb, as same as 隠[かく]れる (to hide), 飛[と]ぶ(to fly) or 寝[ね]る(to sleep), so it has the potential form.
泳がないようにする expresses the speaker's will not to swim, since 泳ぐ is a volitional verb, as I wrote above.

 

[Yoshi_h]

I interpret the original sentence as "If I have a map, I can go everywhere by myself even if it's where I have never been".

 

[Narktor]

No, I haven't learnt about the concept of transitive-intransitive verb pairs yet ^^
Thank you!

 

[Narktor]

IMG_20160404_0002_NEW.pdf - DocDroid

Exercise 6, line 7.
It's just for clarification. I've learnt several uses for the te-form by now. Most of them were in set phrases, some of them in a broader grammatical context. Of the latter, I remember 3 applications the most, of which in turn the third should apply here IMO:
1. Te-form + kara marks a timely order. The entire phrase accompanying the te-form kara happened/concluded before that which is expressed in the following phrase(s).
2. Te-form to chain a sequence of verbal expressions in timely order, like:
けさおきて、あさごはんをたべて、うちをでました
"This morning I stood up, (then) had breakfast and (then) left the house."
3. Te-form in verb 1 to describe an action or circumstance accompanying what is expressed through verb 2.

As I said, I think the latter case should apply here, so the sentence would mean:
"With the advent of he 20th century (*When it became the 20th century), airplanes, cars etc. were used as well (*became useable)."
I'm just not sure about it because my grammar uses a rather narrow terminology to describe what is expressed through Verb 2.
While verb 1 was defined as expressing either an action or circumstance, verb 2 was described solely as expressing an action.
I usually wouldn't mind and just go on, but since I have the opportunity to ask someone here for clarification I didn't want to miss out ^^
"to become usable" isn't an action to my understanding, but more of an event. But I might be wrong, maybe one does categorize this case as an action as well from a grammatical perspective, since at least (kind of an) agent is expressed here through the cars and airplanes. Since therefore the verbal phrase is clearly in active mode, one could regard it as an "action" as well.
In any case, clarification would help me to understand how this use of the te-form works

 

[Toritoribe]

利用できるようになる is an action "change of state" (the state changes from "unusable" to "usable").

 

[Narktor]

thanks

 

[Narktor]

Once more about the -youni constructions, can they be combined with constructions to give advice, like:
"かいがい に りょこう が できるように ひこうき を つかったら いいですよ。"
"To go to foreign countries, using the aeroplane should be fine"

While it still sounds a bit off in english, such constructions are rather frequent in german:
"Um ins Ausland zu reisen (even better: Für Auslandsreisen) ist das Flugzeug gut geeignet."

That's why I'm asking. Alternatively, I think a conditional phrase would probably work better:
"かいがい に りょこう を したければ ひこうき を つかったら いいですよ。"
"If you want to go to foreign countries, using the aeroplane should be fine."

But I'm also unsure wether the conditional verbform is allowed here or not. According to my grammar, it's use is very limited in situations where the speaker utters intentions, orders, desires or requests after the conditional phrase. I'm not sure here wether giving advice, like above, would also be categorized as one of those cases.
If that was the case, I would switch to using -toki, although thereby I would drop the conditional semantics entirely (I guess?) and switch to a purely temporal:
かいがい に りょこう を したいとき(は?) ひこうき を つかったら いいですよ。

On the other hand, this way I would eliminate the problem of having a succession of multiple conditional phrases in a row. Although this might not be a problem in japanese ^^ We just don't like it that much in german xD

 

[Toritoribe]

The first sentence can be valid only when the one you are talking to has the alternative(s) other than using an airplane, but they can't go to foreign countries by those means. It might be possible, but at least it must be rare. Also, notice that you used できる in the Japanese version, so it means "(in order) to be able to go to foreign countries", not just "to go to foreign countries".

Yes, ～ば conditional can't be used when the main clause expresses a strong mood such like the speaker's will, request, hope or desire,
but when the conditional clause is non-volitional, this limitation is not applied. "Hope" is not an intention, so you can use advise after ～たければ clause. Furthermore, not all conditionals have this limitation. For instance, you can use a strong mood after ～たら or ～なら conditional even when the verb in the conditional clause is volitional.
e.g.
×日本[にほん]に行[い]けば、お土産[みやげ]を買[か]って来[き]てください。
(行く is volitional, and 買って来てください in the main clause is a request.)
○日本に行けば、日本語[にほんご]が勉強[べんきょう]できます。
(行く is volitional, but 勉強できます in the main clause is not a strong mood.)
○日本に行きたければ、日本語を勉強しなさい。
(行きたい is not volitional.)

○日本に行ったら、お土産を買って来てください。
○日本に行くなら、お土産を買って来てください。
(お土産＝souvenir)

As for your second sentence, it's not grammatically wrong, but a prerequisite usually follows the conditional clause "if you want~", for instance, "you should save your money", "you need to get your passport" or "you should learn foreign language" as in the third example above. The same goes to "When you want to go to foreign countries". That's the reason why "If/When you go to foreign countries" sounds more natural in your case, not "If/When you want to go".

The following threads might be somewhat helpful for your understanding. You can find many other threads regarding the conditional clause in this forum. This shows that how hard to grasp the concept of the conditional clause in Japanese language for non-native learners, as I wrote previously.

たら vs. ば vs. と? Conditonals | Japan Forum
Some Japanese Questions | Japan Forum
もし and ならば | Japan Forum
Difference between ~なら, ~えば form and ~と | Japan Forum
Need a word or phrase translated? | Page 286 | Japan Forum

 

[Narktor]

japanese.pdf - DocDroid

Its in exerise 7 in the textbox, line 4, the whole sentence.
I have problems making sense of the "で" in "...ちょうこくで,..."
In this very chapter, I've learnt that when you express the material something was made from, it is marked with "で" and if you express the ressource something is made from you mark it with "から".
I think this "で" here represents the mark for a material, but I'm not sure. Overall, I think what the text wants to tell is that the artist has made the "sleeping cat" from an actual sleeping cat, or at least took a sleeping cat as a reference. But it really is confusing because of the "ちょうこく"
Right now, I would translate it like that:
"Concerning the sleeping cat: [The artist] carved it from a sleeping cats image/figurine"
But I think it should sound more like this:
"Concerning the sleeping cat: [The artist] carved it from a sleeping cat"
However, I don't think I can just let the "ちょうこく" disappear. But I'm lacking ideas what to do with it.
Maybe I misinterpreted the function of "で" here, but I can't think of any other function that would work here, at least not from the list of functions I know so far.
I'm also confused by the komma. I've got the feeling it wants to tell me something, but I just can't figure out what to make of it ^^

 

[Mike Cash]

That で is from the copula. It isn't a particle.

 

[Narktor]

How would you translate the sentence then?

 

[Mike Cash]

How would you translate the sentence then?

Nemurineko is a carving of a sleeping cat, carved by Hidari Jingoro.

 

[Narktor]

Ahhh thanks, now I got it!
Okay, I didn't know one calls this copula ^^ to me it was a particle as well, because it was more or less introduced as one, or better said, it wasn't explicitely explained as not being a particle, but something else (=copula)
I'll do a more word by word translation now, following the new understanding of the sentence you've given me:
"The sleeping cat is a sleeping cats figurine and was carved by Hidari Jingoro."

This "de" is the same connector as in "te-form (verb)/noun+de", which chains multiple expressions in a timely order like: "I stand up in the mornings, clean my teeth, have breakfast and then leave the house"
=> "あさ おきて、は を みがいて, うち を でます。"

very much thanks for the help!

 

[Toritoribe]

Yes, it's close to the -te form of verbs. Unlike verbs, there is no concept of "temporal order" in this で, though. (However, a semantic relation is needed also for this で, i.e., you can't connect clauses with no relation by this で. For instance, 眠り猫は眠っている猫の彫刻で、東照宮は古い建物です。 doesn't make much sense.)
By the way, did you read my explanation about the conditional clause and the threads I linked above? Any response?

 

[Mike Cash]

I'll do a more word by word translation now, following the new understanding of the sentence you've given me:
"The sleeping cat is a sleeping cats figurine and was carved by Hidari Jingoro."

It may help to view it by splitting the original into two sentences. Just change the で to だ (です) and change the comma to a period. These are two thematically related phrases, each of which can be a grammatically complete sentence on their own. In English we would (correctly) join them with a semi-colon or (commonly, but incorrectly) with a comma. The construction you see here serves the same function in Japanese.

Notice also that in the original the final verb is in active voice while your English translation is in passive voice. It isn't a problem (and is more natural sounding), but for the purposes of language learning it is good to be conscious of the difference.