入るのに断ったり

[raikado]

This time I've encountered this sentence: お前、駆け魂だろ？ 何で駆け魂が人助けしたり、人の中に入るのに 断ったりするんだ？
駆け魂 are basically spirits that possess humans.

Anyway, it's this 人の中にはいるのに断る part that I am unsure of. Does it mean "[why would you] refuse, even though you (usually) enter humans?". Also the english translation makes me doubt myself as well: "Why would a runaway spirit have shown mercy and refuse to possess a human without an approval?".

I googled のに断る and the majority of sentences do indicate that it means "even though", except 2:

日本の銭湯やサウナなんか入るのに断られてしまうような刺青をしている人間(特に華人系）が意外と多い国である。

その場所に入るのに断られない格好でしたら何でもいいです。

In these sentences, If I take のに as "even though" it sounds weird.

EDIT: 逃げようたって逃がすものか
While I'm at it, is this 逃げようたって actually にげようとしても

 

[undrentide]

断る has more than one meaning, it also means "to ask for permission (in advance)".
So 人の中に入る... part means "why do you ask for permission before entering humans?" (As runaway spirits are supposed to enter humans body as they want.)

ことわる【断る〔断わる〕】の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書

のに here is more like when, or in case, in the situation that... etc.

 

[raikado]

So it was that のに. Mr. Toritoribe told me about this usage before.

どこに行くのも

I didn't ask back then but there are still a few things that I don't understand.

1. Can you tell what kind of のに it is the moment you read it, or do you have to read the whole sentence and then decide which usage fits best? In other words, is there any way to tell these apart?

2. Can it always be replaced with 時, or is のに more limited?

 

[Toritoribe]

1)
Basically, you need to interpret the meaning from the context.
Here's a few tips:
Unlike ～のに as "even though", the past form or the ～ている form can't be used for this のに "when/in case".
In this structure AのにB, the order of the two events MUST be "B -> A" or the same time "A=B".
(It's also possible to consider that this に indicates the means/purpose.)

人の中に入るのに断った。 （＝ 断って、人の中に入った。）
First the spirit asked for the permission, and then entered the body.

彼は学校に行くのにいつもタクシーを使う。 （＝ 彼はいつもタクシーを使って学校に行く。）
He always takes a taxi when going to school.

おばあちゃんはフランス料理を食べるのに箸を使った。 （＝ おばあちゃんは箸を使ってフランス料理を食べた。）
Grandma used chopsticks to eat French cuisine.

2)
Yes, it can be replaced with とき. ため might be more approriate depending on the context, though.

 

[raikado]

Sorry for the late reply, and thanks again.

 

[raikado]

Hello,

I found a sentence with a のに that I am unsure of.

今日ちひろも歩美もバンドの練習来なかったけど、本番も近いのにズル休みなんてダメだよ！！

I've colored the names in blue, just to make it easier to read. Can the のに here be replaced with 時? So it translates as "when the performance is close, you can't miss practices!!"

 

[Mike Cash]

"Even though"

 

[raikado]

I had a feeling it was like this...but I don't see the logic. Shouldn't the sentence after のに be contradictory? I mean, doesn't "even though the performance is close, missing is not allowed!" give the feeling that you are normally allowed to miss practices when you are getting close to the actual performance?

 

[Mike Cash]

Doing a ズル休み with the 本番 so close seems pretty contraindicated to me.

You're going to end up with "when" or some other time indicator in your translation but that doesn't mean 時 can sub for のに in the original. The time element in the original is indicated and understood from 本番が近い without any need to expressly use 時. The function of のに is to express the contraindicatory nature of the action in relation to the situation. Two completely separate things going on there so don't conflate them.

Don't feel constrained to work out a near-literal translation. Consider using more colloquial constructions which convey the same feel and meaning of the original (functional translation): "how could you xxxxx at a time like this!" or "skipping rehearsal right before the show? What the hell are you thinking?", etc.

 

[raikado]

The function of のに is to express the contraindicatory nature of the action in relation to the situation.

I think I understand.

Also, I thought of something. Can't なんてダメ envelop the whole thing before it, so it becomes: "Something like missing despite the show being so close is not allowed"?

 

[Mike Cash]

It does refer to the entire big long part before, yes.

It is a colloquial manner of speaking, so try to phrase the translation in a way that reflects the "flavor" and emotion of the original if you can.

 

[raikado]

Thanks for your help!

It is a colloquial manner of speaking, so try to phrase the translation in a way that reflects the "flavor" and emotion of the original if you can.

When I post here, I usually give translations as literally as possible, so that my way of thinking is clear. Although I must admit that my translations don't get much "flavor" in my head either. In general I am only interested in understanding the grammar and the meaning of the sentence. These are my top priorities when reading. I want to understand the "flavor" as well, but that can stay in japanese, I'm not trying to convert it to english.

 

[Mike Cash]

Thanks for your help!



When I post here, I usually give translations as literally as possible, so that my way of thinking is clear. Although I must admit that my translations don't get much "flavor" in my head either. In general I am only interested in understanding the grammar and the meaning of the sentence. These are my top priorities when reading. I want to understand the "flavor" as well, but that can stay in japanese, I'm not trying to convert it to english.

That's very good to hear!

 

[Toritoribe]

I had a feeling it was like this...but I don't see the logic. Shouldn't the sentence after 窶堙娯?堙 be contradictory? I mean, doesn't "even though the performance is close, missing is not allowed!" give the feeling that you are normally allowed to miss practices when you are getting close to the actual performance?

You are normally allowed to miss practices when you are NOT getting close to the actual performance

This is the key of your misunderstanding.

 

[raikado]

I was trying to highlight what impression "Even though A, B" gives in english.

I think that putting "NOT" there is not correct since it becomes the exact opposite of the intended meaning.

 

[Toritoribe]

This IS the intended meaning.

本番も近いのにズル休みなんてダメ / 本番も近いにもかかわらずズル休みなんてダメ ≒ 本番が近くないならズル休みはまだいい

 

[raikado]

Yes, I understand that that is the intended meaning. But I was talking about what happens in english if you translate のに as "even though". The sentence ends up having the opposite meaning.

 

[Toritoribe]

"even though the performance is close, you miss practices" is not allowed = "when the performance is NOT close, you miss practices" is allowed = You are normally allowed to miss practices when you are NOT getting close to the actual performance

I hope you can see where you misunderstood...

 

[raikado]

"even though the performance is close, you miss practices" is not allowed = "when the performance is NOT close, you miss practices" is allowed = You are normally allowed to miss practices when you are NOT getting close to the actual performance

I hope you cen see where you misunderstood...

I see the misunderstanding. When I wrote that I didn't think that なんてダメ defines 本番も近いのにズル休み. In my head the sentence was like this 本番も近いのに ズル休みなんてダメ. That is why I was translating it as "Even though the show is close, missing practices is not allowed.

As a matter of fact, I usually have a hard time dividing clauses.

 

[Toritoribe]

In fact, a resultative conunction 本番も近いんだからズル休みなんてダメだよ "because the show is close, missing practices is not allowed" can convey almost the same meaning. In this case, ズル休みなんてダメだよ is a set.

 

[raikado]

In fact, a resultative conunction 本番も近いんだからズル休みなんてダメだよ "because the performance is close, you are not allowed to miss practices" can convey almost the same meaning. In this case, ズル休みなんてダメだよ is a set.

And this is why I'm still having problems with dividing sentences. Some words mark a break point and some don't. Sometimes it solely depends on the context. Or at least that's how it seems.

And although I observed that のに gets assimilated by other particles almost every time, I often forget this.


For example, here's a sentence in which I think から doesn't divide the sentence:

私はお姉ちゃんが・・・かっこいいから・・・強いから・・・好きなんじゃない。理由なんてない。私はただ好きなんだ・・・お姉ちゃん！！

Here, なんじゃない envelops everything before it, right? It's the only way that I see for the sentence to fit the context. "I don't like you because you are cool...or strong...onee-chan. I have no reason. I just like you!!"

At the time I didn't know that なんじゃない works like this, and I assumed that から has priority over it.

 

[Toritoribe]

I've found that you posted quite similar question about のに before.;-)

ウチが住んでるのに田舎だ

 

[raikado]

Yes, I didn't forget about that. I think that was the first time I realized that particles don't work based on the principle "first come, first served" , that some have priority over others. Ok, maybe not the first time, but I definitely became more aware of it.

Only recently have I started to write down the sentences that do not translate as I would expect at first sight. And some of them are written because of this priority of particles that doesn't match my expectations ( that から one was one of those). I guess that I've been paying more attention to this since I've become aware of it, so eventually I will learn this as well.

The problem here was that I didn't know that のに＜なんて.

 

[Mike Cash]

I have never heard of this concept of one having "priority" over another and really don't understand where you're getting it from or what you're talking about.

 

[raikado]

Sorry, I really went on on a rant yesterday. I don't really know how it's called. For example, I was referring to what happens in my original sentence when you replace のに with から.

本番も近いのにズル休み なんてダメだよ ( なんて defines everything before it; the clause doesn't stop at のに)
本番も近いから ズル休みなんてダメだよ (here なんて defines only ズル休み)