What do you think about calling a person by his/her name + san?

[WaterFox]

Hi.

In Japan or in Japanese-language, it is abrupt to call a person by just name, which is called 呼び捨て (yobisute).
So we usually use XXX-san in order to call a person politely.

In English, when one wants to call a person politely, he/she might use Mr.XXX or Ms. XXX or Dr.XXX or "Sir", but not with the first name. In English when one call a person by his/her first name, one usually uses 呼び捨て.

These days, I often encounter XXX-san in English conversation with Japanese people. I think it is odd thing.

I think -san is a convenient expression, because it conveys "polite" impression, and it can be used without thinking the gender of the person, or the social rank of the person, and furthermore, it can be used with first-name as well as family-name.
Yet, I think it seems weird to use -san in English conversation.

What do you think?

 

[Glenn]

I tend to agree. I don't have much of a problem with it being used here, but I don't use it because I wouldn't use it in normal English conversation (I can imagine the strange looks and ribbing I'd get it I started using it with coworkers).

 

[WaterFox]

I tend to agree. I don't have much of a problem with it being used here, but I don't use it because I wouldn't use it in normal English conversation (I can imagine the strange looks and ribbing I'd get it I started using it with coworkers).

Thank you.
I agree with you.
I too don't think it is wrong to use it here.

What do you think that tutors of English conversation schools use XXX-san to their students?
I think it should be wrong.

 

[Glenn]

Yeah, if you're supposed to be learning English conversation you should be using English only, I think. It may just be that the tutors and students feel weird about not saying it because it just feels rude to them, or maybe like they're too close. It's probably different between two Japanese people speaking English in Japan than it would be if they were in an English-speaking country, where it wouldn't stand out so much to them, because no one else says it. You know?

 

[undrentide]

It really depends.
When talking in English with both Japanese and non-Japanese people, I hesitate to call the Japanese by his first name, especially if I usually call them by family name + san in Japanese.
So I often end up calling them xxx-san even the entire conversation is made in English, or Mr. xxx as a compromise.

As a side note, this behaviour of mine is limited to business scenes.
If it is a conversation among close friends, I do not feel particularly bad about calling the Japanese party without -san or any other honorific.

Oh, and I feel a bit strange to be called by name only by a Japanese person in English conversation. I'm not offended at all, but feel somewhat uncomfortable because of unnaturalness and awkwardness, I guess. Again, I do not feel like that when talking in English and called by name w/o "san" by my friends who do not call me with "san" when speaking in Japanese.

 

[Toritoribe]

I've been using it just because of my preference. I once started to use 呼び捨て here, but felt uncomfortable and stopped it soon after. So, yeah, it would be the problem of my feeling.

 

[epigene]

I've been using it just because of my preference. I once started to use 呼び捨て here, but felt uncomfortable and stopped it soon after. So, yeah, it would be the problem of my feeling.

That's more or less my opinion, too. The only situation I don't use "san" when talking to Japanese speakers is in conversation with my girlfriends from my old school days. Another is when I'm talking to foreigners who aren't used to this Japanese style.

Otherwise, I use -san with anybody who shows an understanding for Japan and its culture and will stop only when asked not to. Also, when I'm talking/posting here with JREF members.

 

[WaterFox]

Thank you, all, for your reply.

OK, I'll try to change the question.

I think English is a language which adopted many words from other languages, for example, from Latin, from French.
English has adopted some words from Japanese too. For example, "Sayonara, Osama Bin Laden", "tsunami", "kamikaze", "sushi", "ninja ", etc.
These words are used between native-English speaking people without accompanied by Japanese person, right?

Then, do you think "(name)-san " will become an English word like other examples in the future?

(I personally don't think so. It will be limited only in conversations with Japanese people.
Yet, I wish -san would become one of English words, if possible. Because it is very convenient to show my respect.)

Thank you.

 

[Glenn]

I'd say "no." I don't see how it could, really, although it is a convenient way of being respectful to people you don't know without going all the way up to "mister/miss(es)". But that brings up the question of how necessary it is (at least for me).

By the way, although it's off-topic in this thread it's on-topic in this forum, and I hope you don't mind: while in Japanese どう思う？・どう思いますか is the preferred phrasing, in English we say "what do you think about...?" Similarly, 何故わかる？(and all its variations) end up in English as "how do you know?" not "why do you know?" I always found it a bit interesting which interrogative word was used in these circumstances between the two languages. ご参考までに。

 

[undrentide]

I think English is a language which adopted many words from other languages, for example, from Latin, from French.
English has adopted some words from Japanese too. For example, "Sayonara, Osama Bin Laden", "tsunami", "kamikaze", "sushi", "ninja", etc.
These words are used between native-English speaking people without accompanied by Japanese person, right?

Then, do you think "(name)-san " will become an English word like other examples in the future?

To me it does not seem likely to happen.
The biggest reason is it is too foreign - it needs to be placed after the name, unlike Mr./Mrs./Ms./Miss, and simply would not in the language, IMHO.

What is great about "-san" is that we can use it for almost anyone, especially when we do not know whether the person is male or female.

I always found it a bit interesting which interrogative word was used in these circumstances between the two languages.

It really is interesting.
That reminds me of a Japanese businessman I used to travel with.
(Is it a big No-No to end a clause with a preposition, by the way?)
He often say "how to say" meaning なんていうか when he was searching words.
I knew that he was copying a French colleague of mine who also used this particular expression which I guess came from his native language "comment dire..." I do not think I can say French and Japanese are closer just because of this one example, yet it is very interesting.

 

[Glenn]

(Is it a big No-No to end a clause with a preposition, by the way?)

Nah, not at all. It used to be considered an issue, but now the only people who care are language snobs. You'll be hard pressed to find people who consistently don't end sentences/phrases in prepositions. Plus sometimes they're actually more like adverbs and form what are called phrasal verbs, like "get up" or "get down". If you drop the preposition-looking word, the meaning changes.

 

[undrentide]

Thank you Glenn san (haha, knowing your proficiency of Japanese I tend to regard you as Japanese speaker and cannot help adding "san"!) I'm relieved to know it is OK.
And sorry WaterFox san for my being off-topic-ish in your thread.

 

[Half-n-Half]

Then, do you think "(name)-san " will become an English word like other examples in the future?

I don't think so since it is more of a cultural thing, but for me at least it would be pretty awkward. I just can't talk to someone solely or partly in Japanese if we normally speak in English unless we are with other people who don't understand English. It is especially weird if it is just the two of us. I can't even bring myself to do Japanese pronunciations of Japanese words (like sushi, typhoon, etc.) when speaking in English. I don't know, I just feel uncomfortable and awkward...

 

[Chidoriashi]

Hi.
In Japan or in Japanese-language, it is abrupt to call a person by just name, which is called 呼び捨て (yobisute).
So we usually use XXX-san in order to call a person politely.

In English, when one wants to call a person politely, he/she might use Mr.XXX or Ms. XXX or Dr.XXX or "Sir", but not with the first name. In English when one call a person by his/her first name, one usually uses 呼び捨て.

These days, I often encounter XXX-san in English conversation with Japanese people. I think it is odd thing.

I think -san is a convenient expression, because it conveys "polite" impression, and it can be used without thinking the gender of the person, or the social rank of the person, and furthermore, it can be used with first-name as well as family-name.
Yet, I think it seems weird to use -san in English conversation.

What do you think?

I think it can be strange, but I find myself using for an older Japanese friend of mine, who is fluent in English, somehow it just seems to fit better than Mr. Anyhow I do not think there is really a big issue with using it though because anybody who has seen the Karate Kid can probably guess what it means.

 

[WaterFox]

I'd say "no." I don't see how it could, really, although it is a convenient way of being respectful to people you don't know without going all the way up to "mister/miss(es)". But that brings up the question of how necessary it is (at least for me).

Thank you, Glenn, for your comment.

By the way, although it's off-topic in this thread it's on-topic in this forum, and I hope you don't mind: while in Japanese どう思う？・どう思いますか is the preferred phrasing, in English we say "what do you think about...?" Similarly, 何故わかる？(and all its variations) end up in English as "how do you know?" not "why do you know?" I always found it a bit interesting which interrogative word was used in these circumstances between the two languages. ご参考までに。

Oh, thank you, for your correction.
"What do you think about calling a person with his/her name + san?"
is correct. Right?
I would like to edit the title, but I can't.

Mr./Ms. moderator, (or moderator-san ), please edit my title.

Thanks again for your correction. Please correct my weird English, all the time, because 聞くは一時の恥、聞かぬは一生の恥.

 

[WaterFox]

To me it does not seem likely to happen.
The biggest reason is it is too foreign - it needs to be placed after the name, unlike Mr./Mrs./Ms./Miss, and simply would not in the language, IMHO.

Thank you.

What is great about "-san" is that we can used for almost anyone, especially when we do not know whether the person is male or female.

I agree with you.
We sometimes do not know whether the person is a man or a woman, by his/her log-in name, and to make the matter worse, sometimes we can't decide even by his/her appearance.

 

[WaterFox]

I don't think so since it is more of a cultural thing, but for me at least it would be pretty awkward. I just can't talk to someone solely or partly in Japanese if we normally speak in English unless we are with other people who don't understand English. It is especially weird if it is just the two of us. I can't even bring myself to do Japanese pronunciations of Japanese words (like sushi, typhoon, etc.) when speaking in English. I don't know, I just feel uncomfortable and awkward...

Thank you, @Half-n-Half, for your post.

I think I know, somehow, that you just feel uncomfortable and awkward....
And it makes me remind something....

I learned English at school in Japan about 40 years ago. Teachers taught us in Japanese-way-pronunciation-of-English (Katakana-English). And it was a definite rule to use Katakana-English in the class.
If a student use the perfect-native-English-speaker's pronunciation, other class members would feel uncomfortable and awkward.
For example;
"Small" is すもーるぅ, not すもお in our English class.
"Not at all" is not なれろー, but のっと あっと おおるう.
(Sorry, off-topic)

 

[WaterFox]

I think it can be strange ,but I find myself using for an older Japanese friend of mine, who is fluent in English, somehow it just seems to fit better than Mr. Anyhow I do not think there is really a big issue with using it though because anybody who has seen the Karate Kid can probably guess what it means.

Hi, 千鳥足, thank you for your comment.
I wonder what "the Karate Kid" is. I wonder if it might be "Dragon Ball Z"?
I looked for a dictionary and found that "the Karate Kid" is the movie which is called as ベストキッド (best kid) in Japan. The title of a movie might be translated in different way.
I found it interesting too.
Did you watch it when you were a kid?

 

[Chidoriashi]

Hi, 千鳥足, thank you for your comment.
I wonder what "the Karate Kid" is. I wonder if it might be "Dragon Ball Z"?
I looked for a dictionary and found that "the Karate Kid" is the movie which is called as ベストキッド (best kid) in Japan. The title of a movie might be translated in different way.
I found it interesting too.
Did you watch it when you were a kid?

Well it is an old movie about a kid who is getting bullied, and he ends up becoming friends with an older Japanese karate master, who teaches him karate to defend himself, and the karate master, in the movie Mr. Miyagi, always calls his student Daniel, Daniel-san.

Yes, I did see the movie when I was a kid, and -さん along with 忍者、侍、こんにちは became one of my first Japanese words, long before I started learning the language.

 

[Glenn]

It's ベストキッド. It was a pretty huge movie in the US, and everyone who grew up in the 80s (and their parents) is undoubtedly familiar with Daniel-san and Mr. Miyagi.

[Edit] I didn't see Chidoriashi was replying...

"What do you think about calling a person with his/her name + san?"

I think isntead of "with" you should use "by" -- "what do you think about calling a person by their name + 'san'?"

And it makes me remind something....

"It reminds me of something." "Remind" is causative on its own, you don't need to add "make" to it.

Thank you Glenn san (haha, knowing your proficiency of Japanese I tend to regard you as Japanese speaker and cannot help adding "san"!)

Ha, that's quite a compliment! Thanks!

 

[WaterFox]

I think instead of "with" you should use "by" -- "what do you think about calling a person by their name + 'san'?"
"It reminds me of something." "Remind" is causative on its own, you don't need to add "make" to it.

Thank you, for the corrections, グレンさん.

 

[Kai1987]

You people should just use -san or -sama, (depending on who you are talking to) and stop complaining.

 

[Half-n-Half]

You people should just use -san or -sama, (depending on who you are talking to) and stop complaining.

Who's complaining? And part of the discussion was whether -san/-sama could become more commonplace in English like other loanwords.

 

[Kai1987]

Why would it be used in the English language when that's clearly 'sonkeigo'. The English language doesn't have sonkeigo like the Japanese. That's like saying certain Russian grammar rules should be 'common place' in Greek. :-/ 頭、もっと使ってくださいね。

 

[undrentide]

Why would it be used in the English language when that's clearly 'sonkeigo'. The English language doesn't have sonkeigo like the Japanese. That's like saying certain Russian grammar rules should be 'common place' in Greek. :-/ 頭、もっと使ってくださいね。

Did you read what has been discussed in this thread at all?
Your comments are totally out of place and miss the point, I'm afraid.
And the last rude remarks are quite uncalled for.

Please pay more attention if you want to join the discussion, and be polite to other members.