みかさんのこと、忘れません

[Yuta73]

Translated by the book as: I'll never forget you, Mika.

Thanks to the previous forum help, I've made giant leaps forward in my japanese, どうも.

Now I'm having trouble understanding the usage of こと.
If the intention was to say something as "Concerning you, I'll never forget you", why not use は or が?, as in みかさんは忘れません.

 

[Angel Valis]

こと here is sort of like saying "things about Mika". I believe you can leave it out, but it seems like a relatively common occurrence in these kinds of sentences.

Since を marks the direct object of 忘れる, を is the missing particle here.

In spoken Japanese, the particles は, が, and を are often dropped as is the case here. If you wanted the complete sentence it would be:

みかさんのことを忘れません。

 

[Yuta73]

So It would mean something like: "I won't forget everything about you"

 

[Angel Valis]

I suppose as a very literal translation it works. However, I believe that the feeling behind the phrase is closer to your book's translation.

 

[Elizabeth]

I suppose as a very literal translation it works. However, I believe that the feeling behind the phrase is closer to your book's translation.

I'll never/I won't forget you, Mika

There is no literal suggestion of "things" or "quantity" around the person being addressed. "Won't forget everything" doesn't work as any kind of translation if that implies I will forget most/some things about you.

 

[Half-n-Half]

I never really liked translating こと when it is used this way i.e. ～のこと、大好き！ and just preferred to understand what they were saying (I love you!).

 

[Elizabeth]

I never really liked translating こと when it is used this way i.e. ～のこと、大好き！ and just preferred to understand what they were saying (I love you!).

The meaning is pretty much the same, but adding こと makes it a slightly more emotional expression I guess. It's sort of icky English really -- like you would be telling someone I don't just love you, but all that stuff (like your family and background or whatever) that makes you you.

 

[Half-n-Half]

Yeah, I understand that part, but like you said it's pretty icky English and sounds... odd if you try and translate it lol. So I just gave up. It's not good to constantly translate from one language to another anyway.

 

[Glenn]

I
In spoken Japanese, the particles は, が, and を are often dropped as is the case here. If you wanted the complete sentence it would be:

みかさんのことを忘れません。

That's not wrong, but I feel like は works better here. I'll have to wait for confirmation of that, though.

Regarding this use of こと, the strangest example I ever remember seeing it in was something like 俺のことを殺す気か？ (やれるものならやってみろ！). The answer I got was that it gives emphasis, but I still don't quite get how. In comparison, 君のことは忘れないよ seems normal (in fact, it kind of feels strange without the ～のこと).

The ～のこと in 君のことが好きだ I think is perhaps different (or at least originally was), because according to what I've read it's used to distinguish the subject with two-place adjectives. That would be the 羨ましい, 怖い, 好き, 嫌い, 嫌 (いや), etc. type (although the last three aren't "adjectives"... and I'm kind of guessing on 怖い). That is, they're adjectives/adjectival nouns/non-verbs that take objects and the object is marked with が, and the subject can also be marked with が, so the ～のことが-marked one is the object. Perhaps the みかさんのこと、忘れません usage extended from that. I don't know, though. At any rate, I third the above and say don't translate it into English, 'cause it don't belong there.

 

[Angel Valis]

I never really liked translating こと when it is used this way i.e. ～のこと、大好き！ and just preferred to understand what they were saying (I love you!).

The meaning is pretty much the same, but adding こと makes it a slightly more emotional expression I guess. It's sort of icky English really -- like you would be telling someone I don't just love you, but all that stuff (like your family and background or whatever) that makes you you.

At any rate, I third the above and say don't translate it into English, 'cause it don't belong there.

I agree, I just meant to say that if you REALLY wanted to, you can twist it like that, but that its actually meaning is much more than that. It really doesn't sound right in English when you try to translate こと.

That's not wrong, but I feel like は works better here. I'll have to wait for confirmation of that, though.

I figured は wasn't a good choice simply because if it's there I would read it more as if みか wasn't forgetting something rather than someone not forgetting みか.

However, I'm really not doing well lately with my explanations it seems.
I like being able to post and help, but if my explanations are wrong, maybe I'll only post when I'm 100% sure of something. すみません。

 

[Glenn]

I didn't find anything wrong with it. It's not wrong to say みかさんのことを忘れません. That's the right particle. It's just that I imagine the two standing face to face (別れ際に) so the speaker would be more likely to say みかさんのことは忘れません, since she's a topic known to both parties (old, shared information/knowledge) and the speaker most likely wants to put special emphasis on their not forgetting her.

Really that was the only point you made that I was commenting on. The not translating directly comment was more of an agreement with the general idea, not anything to contrast what you had said. In short, you're good, dude. 謝る必要なんてありませんよ。

 

[Angel Valis]

I simply get paranoid about giving people the wrong information because I know that if a bad habit sticks around long enough it can fossilize and be really hard, if not next to impossible to correct.

Also, I've not yet learned how to emphasize individual words and ideas in a sentence (other than emphasizing the whole sentence with よ), so I've never seen は used that way.

 

[Glenn]

Ah, so you haven't had that can of worms opened on you yet, eh? It's basically a topic/focus thing. The topic (in Japanese's case the は-marked noun/noun phrase) is background information that is old, known, and common to all parties, and as such the emphasis is generally on what comes after it, which is new information. が can work the other way, acting as a focus marker and showing that what comes before it is new, unknown, not shared information, so the focus is on that. If you watch anime (or read manga) you've probably come across the 貴様は俺が倒す or 君は僕が守る phrasings, which illustrate the above uses quite nicely, I think.

An important thing to keep in mind is that these are not all of the functions of the two. They have others, and they can overlap, but don't have to. Further reading:
Topics and focuses

 

[Angel Valis]

OH...MY...GOD....That is an amazing link...

I've known some of the uses of は and が, but I didn't know they could be used at the same time (except with inner clauses).

However...I am still a little confused about why 「みかのことはわすれません」 would use は. I understand now that は can replace を but, why it does so in this instance I'm a bit lost on.

The example used in that link is:
「えはがかがかいた」

They state this could be in response to the question, "Who drew the picture?"
えis the topic, or old information.
がか is new information.
So in this case, は is being used to emphasize that it's the picture that's being talked about (even though it could have been easily left out of the sentence entirely).

So I understand that usage (though keeping topic and focus straight in my head is taking a little work lol).

With 「みかのことはわすれません」, I can see why the を can be replaced with は but I'm not sure why you would in this instance. Obviously I don't have context to tell me what has or hasn't been talked about, but at the same time.......Actually, I'm going to derail that thought and just ask a question.

Can something be marked with は even if it hasn't been explicitly stated previously? In this instance, since the people seem to be saying goodbye, can 「みかのこと」 be marked with は simply because みか is presumably one of the participants in the conversation?

By the way...sorry @Yuta73 ...I've sort of hijacked your thread..

 

[Elizabeth]

I didn't find anything wrong with it. It's not wrong to say みかさんのことを忘れません. That's the right particle. It's just that I imagine the two standing face to face (別れ際に) so the speaker would be more likely to say みかさんのことは忘れません, since she's a topic known to both parties (old, shared information/knowledge) and the speaker most likely wants to put special emphasis on their not forgetting her.

I think both を and は are used face to face - most Japanese probably couldn't even explain the distinction. Or they would be more likely to leave it out as in the example. But you have to get used to particles so I can't recommend that for a beginner.

 

[Elizabeth]

i simply get paranoid about giving people the wrong information because i know that if a bad habit sticks around long enough it can fossilize and be really hard, if not next to impossible to correct.

Also, i've not yet learned how to emphasize individual words and ideas in a sentence (other than emphasizing the whole sentence with よ), so i've never seen は used that way.

恥ずかしがっていると上達しないよ。

間違っていたら言ってほしいんですが, 誤答は修正されるでしょう。 :d


心配しないでください!

 

[micahcowan]

OH...MY...GOD....That is an amazing link...

Personally, I found it quite confusing. But it's a very difficult concept to address both simply and accurately.

So far, the best explanation of wa versus ga that I've read, is in "Making Sense of Japanese: What the Textbooks Don't Tell You" by Jay Rubin; but I also feel that he makes some fairly extreme statements, overstating some things.

I've known some of the uses of は and が, but I didn't know they could be used at the same time (except with inner clauses).

In fact, it's entirely fine to use は twice in the same clause; once as a topic marker, and again as either a contrastive marker or a focus-shifter (not sure the link given above addresses this clearly, but using は makes whatever comes after it the "focus"... Also, I dislike saying that using が implies that what comes before it has the focus; AFAICT it is often used in situations where neither what comes before nor what comes after has particular focus. However, when what comes before is the focus, it must be used in preference to は, which would be inappropriate.)

Which brings us to:

However...I am still a little confused about why 「みかのことはわすれません」 would use は. I understand now that は can replace を but, why it does so in this instance I'm a bit lost on.

Because it emphasizes what comes after: わすれません. I will not/never forget, versus a flatter I won't forget.

--
Micah J Cowan
JapaneseReader.com

 

[Elizabeth]

Personally, I found it quite confusing. But it's a very difficult concept to address both simply and accurately.
So far, the best explanation of wa versus ga that I've read, is in "Making Sense of Japanese: What the Textbooks Don't Tell You" by Jay Rubin; but I also feel that he makes some fairly extreme statements, overstating some things.
In fact, it's entirely fine to use は twice in the same clause; once as a topic marker, and again as either a contrastive marker or a focus-shifter (not sure the link given above addresses this clearly, but using は makes whatever comes after it the "focus"... Also, I dislike saying that using が implies that what comes before it has the focus; AFAICT it is often used in situations where neither what comes before nor what comes after has particular focus. However, when what comes before is the focus, it must be used in preference to は, which would be inappropriate.)

When は is used to show contrast or to emphasize the subject, it actually does shift the focus to what comes before. It is also much easier to distinguish the function as contrastive and topic marker in speech where a stress is clearly laid on certain words. In writing, it often takes a certain amount of context.

But I agree が has like 4 or 5 separate uses and only one can truly be said to be for emphasis.

Japanese Particles: Wa VS Ga

 

[micahcowan]

When は is used to show contrast or to emphasize the subject, it actually does shift the focus to what comes before

It depends on who you ask. But yes, I would at least partially agree with you. I've heard from some (including the book I referenced above) who would disagree, or would at least shy away from the use of the word "emphasis" for anything coming before a は. Be that as it may, "contrast" certainly matches well with what I usually think of as "emphasis"... and you can usually hear the emphasis as raised pitch for "contrast" は...

Maybe this is an indication that using the idea of "focus" or "emphasis" could be a mistake in the end... whether it's used as a topic marker or a contrast marker, it's still always true that the "key information" being conveyed is what comes after - that is, you still don't know what's being said about it until after the latter part, and you're still marking the first part as "the thing about which I have something I'm about to say/as for ~".

(Incidentally, I like the current example, みかのことは、わすれません, because it could easily have either meaning, depending on context and inflection.)

 

[Glenn]

Can something be marked with は even if it hasn't been explicitly stated previously?

Yes, it can. It can if you know the person you're talking to knows about it already, for instance 日本, アメリカ, 木星, 太陽系, ドラえもん, etc. etc.

Also, I dislike saying that using が implies that what comes before it has the focus

I don't think anyone here said that. Or did you just mean you've heard it before and were commenting on that?

...would at least shy away from the use of the word "emphasis" for anything coming before a は. Be that as it may, "contrast" certainly matches well with what I usually think of as "emphasis"... and you can usually hear the emphasis as raised pitch for "contrast" は...

...whether it's used as a topic marker or a contrast marker, it's still always true that the "key information" being conveyed is what comes after - that is, you still don't know what's being said about it until after the latter part, and you're still marking the first part as "the thing about which I have something I'm about to say/as for ~".

I mostly agree with this, but I do think the contrastive usage it puts emphasis on what comes before it. Or maybe the whole utterance is emphasized. For example, it's hard (for me) to say what's more important in the second independent clause here: 寿司は食べますが、鶏は食べません。It seems 鶏 and ません are being emphasized here, as they both contrast the previous statement. But perhaps this is getting a bit too deep.

And, I would like to point out, this is why I dread seeing threads titled anything like "は and が". You could write a dissertation on them. I haven't read Jay Rubin's book, but I have heard it's a really good, simple, down-to-earth explanation of them. Perhaps we should just encourage everyone to read that. Of course, I should give myself a flogging as well, since I'm the one who brought it up here.

 

[Angel Valis]

AAnd, I would like to point out, this is why I dread seeing threads titled anything like "は and が". You could write a dissertation on them. I haven't read Jay Rubin's book, but I have heard it's a really good, simple, down-to-earth explanation of them. Perhaps we should just encourage everyone to read that. Of course, I should give myself a flogging as well, since I'm the one who brought it up here.

It's true that it's a complex subject, but anyone who wants to seriously study and learn the language is going to have to open that door eventually. At least I understand some of the usage a bit better than I did before, so I'm one step farther along my path to mastery of the language. Though I'm going to have to look up that book you've mentioned now... lol.

 

[micahcowan]

I don't think anyone here said that. Or did you just mean you've heard it before and were commenting on that?

前に聞いたことあって、そのわけでコメントしていまし た。笑

I haven't read Jay Rubin's book, but I have heard it's a really good, simple, down-to-earth explanation of them.

Pretty much. Though as I said, he may overstate things a bit. For instance, he makes the claim that は always "builds up an anticipation of what will be said, and releases it on the second half" (paraphrased). And he tells a personal account about someone who committed ritualized suicide as a result of a gaijin's accidental misuse of は (something like 今日は色々なおいしい食物がありますね, when they had also eaten there on the previous several nights, thus "implying a contrast to the previous nights"), which I frankly find less than credible. If the guy really did so, I'd guess it was for other reasons than the author supposes. I mean, would a Japanese man really stake his life that a less than perfectly fluent gaijin wouldn't misuse は?

 

[Yuta73]

By the way...sorry @Yuta73 ...I've sort of hijacked your thread...

気にしません、Angel Valis。

みなさん、I was pretty sure that something more was being said with -nokoto. Thanks, I think I get the idea now. I'll stick with the emotional idea and all that makes she she thing.
And yes, my suggestion indeed was a literal one.

 

[micahcowan]

気にしません、Angel Valis。

みなさん、I was pretty sure that something more was being said with -nokoto.

It's really just a way to be less direct, and is a common expression.

わたしは、ハジメのことがすき is "I like you(, Hajime)", not "I like things about you."

 

[Glenn]

前に聞いたことあって、そのわけでコメントしていまし た。笑

そうだったんですか。わかりました。

...he tells a personal account about someone who committed ritualized suicide as a result of a gaijin's accidental misuse of は (something like 今日は色々なおいしい食物がありますね, when they had also eaten there on the previous several nights, thus "implying a contrast to the previous nights")

I hope that was not an actual happening. I agree, that's a bit far-fetched, and terribly tragic if it's true. Although the part before the suicide I've heard of before from someone else, where a patron in an eatery exclaims これはうまい！ and the おばあさん working at the counter says じゃあ、他のはまずかったってわけ？ The point was even Japanese people don't always know which version was intended when speaking with each other.