Can もの follow a noun?

[epigene]

So then, 高山のような町は忙しいものです。means "Generally speaking, towns like Takayama are busy."

However in my mind the 忙しいもの could just be "busy things"...so towns like Takayama are busy things...er..

I think what you have in mind is 「物」meaning things, which is a common noun.

The もの being discussed here is what is called 形式名詞 (formal noun) which does not translate directly into English but is expressed in other forms such as:
Generally speaking, ～ should be ～
Because they are different language elements, the kanji 物 is not used in this usage.
Hope this helps!

 

[Putrefaction]

Hm, so I think my translations were wrong...I tried to take Toritoribe's example of 学生は勉強するものだ and make something else using an adjective. Thanks for your help epigene!

 

[Glenn]

...Glenn's sentence of

(これは）私達の責任に相当するもの

Would mean "Generally speaking, this is our fitting responsibility" ?

If I am right I will try それに相当するもの、それだけの価値のあるもの but perhaps in my own topic, I don't want to ruin this topic with my questions; rather I hope my attempts can help the discussion...

I was just taking the definition for もの and replacing もの with it in Toritoribe's 責任もの example. Remember his original was これが失敗したら、私達の責任ものだぞ。I just plugged in what I thought was the appropriate definition for もの into that. So no, it wouldn't mean that. It means that it is something that will be equivalent to our responsibility. I hope that makes a little more sense.

 

[Glenn]

Hm, so I think my translations were wrong...I tried to take Toritoribe's example of 学生は勉強するものだ and make something else using an adjective. Thanks for your help epigene!

I think 高山っていう町は忙しいもんだぜ would be mostly OK, to take your example and modify it a bit. I feel like the topic/subject has to be a specific entity, not something like 高山のような町, and in this usage ものだ has a feeling more like "man, that Takayama sure is a busy town," where it's showing the speaker's feelings more than just giving an objective description (I think it's called 詠嘆（えいたん）in Japanese). My concern is that perhaps 忙しい can't modify a town, but I just don't know about that. Also, I could be wrong about the topic/subject thing. That's just a gut feeling.

 

[Putrefaction]

This is all way above me, I left a visitor message and +rep for both you guys epigene and Glenn. If you could reply to them, I'd appreciate it. And in a final act:

文法ものが分かりません！

Hopefully this translates to what I want it to; I just sent it to someone I know on email. And if it doesn't...darn, I haven't understood.

 

[Putrefaction]

I don't know if this will help, but here are things that I found in my workbooks:

And from my JLPT2 book, which I don't know what's going on:

 

[Jericho Desu]

Thats some good stuff there Putrefaction, do you mind telling me what workbook those are off?

 

[Putrefaction]

Yes; I scanned:

An Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese
Kanzen Master JLPT 2 Grammar (green book)

 

[Elizabeth]

http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?p=%E3...type=0&dtype=0
As Glenn-san explained, "verb/adjective + もの" connotes "generally speaking." Actually, 学生は勉強するものだ is a good example; "Genarally speaking, students should study."
Are you referring to the prefix usage?

No, it's もの as a sentence ending to express different types of emotions. For instance, the so-called "woman's term" when making an excuse or trying to justify an action, following an adjective or verb and functioning like から...(私はコンサートに行きませんでした。 母が病気なものので)....Does it correspond at all to the definition below ?

T2464.gif物事の筋道。道理。理屈。「 ―の順序をわきまえる 」

This is a confusing point. Mostly because there has not been presented a break down of how these "nominalizing" usages distinguish between following verbs and coming after adjectives. I will relook for better examples through the newspaper but only as if now know what my experience has been from texts, dictionaries and the like.

 

[Glenn]

私はコンサートに行きませんでした。 母が病気なものので

This looks to be the usage under Putrefaction's second picture, the ～ものだから usage. It can become もので I guess to give less of an excuse-sounding reason than when you say ものだから, similar to （な）ので versus （だ）から.

ところでですね、「の」が一つ余っているようですが・・・

More examples of that usage:
１）先生「どうして遅刻したんですか。」
学生「目覚まし時計が壊れていたものですから。」
２）姉「あっ、私のベストまた着てる。どうして、黙っ て着るの。」
妹「だって、これ、好きなんだもん。それに、お姉 さん、いなかったし・・・。」
３）今週は忙しかったもので、お返事するのがつい遅く なってしまいました。（手紙文）

These are from どんな時どう使う日本語表現文型５００ 中・上級. They lumped ～ものだから, ～もので, and ～もの（もん）all into one group.

 

[Elizabeth]

This looks to be the usage under Putrefaction's second picture, the ～ものだから usage. It can become もので I guess to give less of an excuse-sounding reason than when you say ものだから, similar to （な）ので versus （だ）から.
ところでですね、「の」が一つ余っているようですが・・・
More examples of that usage:
１）先生「どうして遅刻したんですか。」
学生「目覚まし時計が壊れていたものですから。」
２）姉「あっ、私のベストまた着てる。どうして、黙って着るの。」
妹「だって、これ、好きなんだもん。それに、お姉さん、いなかったし・・・。」
３）今週は忙しかったもので、お返事するのがつい遅くなってしまいました。（手紙文）
These are from どんな時どう使う日本語表現文型５００ 中・上級. They lumped ～ものだから, ～もので, and ～もの（もん）all into one group.

Ok, thanks for those. Although I'm still a bit uncertain thinking about the differences in (もの)だから, （な）ので, ですから beyond basic issues of politeness and other から/ので rules.

So....for instance, switching things up a little I wonder to what effect if the last example would end in の
今週は忙しかったもので、お返事するのがつい遅く なってしまいました((しまったの(です))。

or just plain 今週は忙しかったんだもの when the subject of a late reply were context evident ?? Probably more of a stylistic discretion than anything.


ものか(な) / もんか from the Genki postings looks way odd with a です ending as well. Because I assumed that was an inherently almost disgust filled way to express displeasure. Trans inference: Are you crazy ? You really expect me to believe that/to put up with that nonsense ??? etc. I'll look for it in the Yahoo dictionary list of entries. ☝

 

[Toritoribe]

That use of もの doesn't take adjectives or nouns according to どんな時どう使う日本語表現文型５００ 中・上級 and 中上級を教える人のための日本語文法ハンドブック. It only follows verbs.

Hmm, I don't agree with this, "もの doesn't take adjectives."

〔4〕 （形式名詞）
［1］ （「…ものだ（である）」などの形で）
（ア） 普遍的な傾向。

・ どんな人もお世辞には弱い―だ

・ 人間はとかく過去を美化したがる―らしい

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文法というのは、難しいものだ。;-)

文法ものが分かりません！

文法もの sounds like "a grammer textbook" or "a question regarding grammer" to me, thus, the same use of 学園もの; campus-life story. FYI, もの can't be used with all nouns. The expression like 責任ものだ is less common at least than 責任を取らなければならない.

No, it's もの as a sentence ending to express different types of emotions. For instance, the so-called "woman's term" when making an excuse or trying to justify an action, following an adjective or verb and functioning like から...(私はコンサートに行きませんでした。 母が病気なものので)....Does it correspond at all to the definition below ?
T2464.gif物事の筋道。道理。理屈。「 ―の順序をわきまえる 」
This is a confusing point. Mostly because there has not been presented a break down of how these "nominalizing" usages distinguish between following verbs and coming after adjectives. I will relook for better examples through the newspaper but only as if now know what my experience has been from texts, dictionaries and the like.

Grammatically, that's not a nominalizer but is classified under "particle." See examples below. The expressions like ないんです, おっしゃったんです CAN'T be nominalized.

活用語の終止形に付く。
［1］ 不満・うらみ・あまえ・訴えなどの気持ちを込めて、理由を述べる。「だもの・ですもの」の形をとることが多い。

・ だって、仕方がないんです―

・ どうしてもぼく行きたい―

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１ 活用語の終止形に付く。多く「だって」「でも」と呼応して用いる。現代では多く女性や子供の間で使われるが、時に撥音化して「もん」となることもある。

不平・不満・恨みの意を込めながら、相手の自分に対する非難に対し、根拠や理由を示し、反駁(はんばく)、訴え、甘えなどの気持ちを表す。「だって時間がないんです―」「でもお父さんがそうおっしゃったんです―」

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から is also a particle, isn't it?;-)

 

[Putrefaction]

文法もの sounds like "a grammer textbook" or "a question regarding grammer" to me, thus, the same use of 学園もの; campus-life story. FYI, もの can't be used with all nouns. The expression like 責任ものだ is less common at least than 責任を取らなければならない.

I see...well, I'll have to come back to this topic when the time comes. I have a large topic list piling up! And Glenn I saw your wall post; I just need to decipher it first!

But one quick question, the もの in 学園もの wasn't the 物 meaning, was it? It was meant to be percieved as; "pertaining to"?

 

[Glenn]

Hmm, I don't agree with this, "もの doesn't take adjectives."

http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?p=%E3...pe=0&dname=0ss

文法というのは、難しいものだ。

I didn't mean it never does; I meant it doesn't in that usage (i.e., the 常識・するのが当然だ usage). For instance, 共産党の制服は青いものだ wouldn't be acceptable to mean "the communist party's uniforms should be blue." It could mean "the communist party's uniforms always seem to be blue" or "they always are blue," though (as in the speaker is expressing his thoughts in a subjective, emotional way). 「文法というのは、難しいものだ」という文も一緒です ね。ですが、文法は難しくなければならないという意味 は持てません。でしょう？

(I really wanted to type 你明白我的意思了？ seriously just now. I guess that study's been paying off. haha) Anyway, do you know what I mean? Does that make sense?

 

[Elizabeth]

Hmm, I don't agree with this, "もの doesn't take adjectives."
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文法というのは、難しいものだ。;-)
文法もの sounds like "a grammer textbook" or "a question regarding grammer" to me, thus, the same use of 学園もの; campus-life story. FYI, もの can't be used with all nouns. The expression like 責任ものだ is less common at least than 責任を取らなければならない.
Grammatically, that's not a nominalizer but is classified under "particle." See examples below. The expressions like 勉強しています, ないんです, おっしゃったんです CAN'T be nominalized.

Hehe. Sore mo shitte wa itakedo, kangaete wa inakattan desu ne...

Arigatou gozaimasu !

 

[Chidoriashi]

I wish when I learned about もの I would have just been taught all 18,000 usages of it all at once because, it got really confusing not knowing all the meanings it can have.

 

[Toritoribe]

But one quick question, the もの in 学園もの wasn't the 物 meaning, was it? It was meant to be percieved as; "pertaining to"?

６ 名詞の下に付いて複合語をつくる。

その種類にはいる品物・作品の意を表す。「SF―」「現代―」

「もの」の検索結果 - Yahoo!辞書

［1］ その分野・種類に入る品物や作品であることを表す。

・ 夏―

・ 西陣―

・ 三年―のワイン

・ 現代―

thing pertaining to~

学園もの; campus-life story = campus-life drama/movie/novel

この映画は学園ものに分類されている。
この女優は学園もののドラマに主演して有名になった。

I didn't mean it never does; I meant it doesn't in that usage (i.e., the 常識・するのが当然だ usage). For instance, 共産党の制服は青いものだ wouldn't be acceptable to mean "the communist party's uniforms should be blue." It could mean "the communist party's uniforms always seem to be blue" or "they always are blue," though (as in the speaker is expressing his thoughts in a subjective, emotional way). 「文法というのは、難しいものだ」という文も一緒です ね。ですが、文法は難しくなければならないという意味 は持てません。でしょう？

Ah, I see. That might be connected with the type of verbs; 意志動詞 or 状態動詞.

(I really wanted to type 你明白我的意思了？ seriously just now. I guess that study's been paying off. haha) Anyway, do you know what I mean? Does that make sense?

If I interpret it 漢文調 Japanese, 汝我が意明白なりとすや, 汝我が意了とすや?
Probably 漢文 used in Japanese is a bit old Chinese.

I wish when I learned about もの I would have just been taught all 18,000 usages of it all at once because, it got really confusing not knowing all the meanings it can have.

lol

 

[Glenn]

If I interpret it 漢文調 Japanese, 汝我が意明白なりとすや, 汝我が意了とすや?

Probably 漢文 used in Japanese is a bit old Chinese.

Haha, yeah. I can't even read that! It means 私の言ったことがわかりましたか. 明白＝わかる, 意思＝意味. You got 你 and 我, albeit they're more like あなた and 私. 的＝の (in this case). 了 is a perfective aspect marker, showing completion of an action (you may have known that already), although in this case it's probably more like a change-of-state marker (from 不明白 to 明白). 了 is kind of like もの, in that it has different uses depending on where it's used and is really confusing to learners. haha

 

[Elizabeth]

I wish when I learned about もの I would have just been taught all 18,000 usages of it all at once because, it got really confusing not knowing all the meanings it can have.

And not to leave out the other mono [者] which is for people. Or is it もの as in 者?
When I used to hear 死亡したもの(者)(が) on the news...I was sooo confused all over again. It doesn't really make sense to use that for an emotion...or does it ?

 

[Elizabeth]

The pattern of こと/ものはありません as below (Fairly interchangeable, I think !). Besides もの possibly more emphatic and colorful, any more implications of one over the other?


コメントするものはありません

コメントすることはありません

 

[Glenn]

To me it looks like either can mean "I have nothing to comment on," but the こと version can also mean "there's no need to comment." I'd be interested in any other differences, although I can't recall ever having heard ～するものはありません. Is that an actual example?

 

[epigene]

To me it looks like either can mean "I have nothing to comment on," but the こと version can also mean "there's no need to comment." I'd be interested in any other differences, although I can't recall ever having heard ～するものはありません. Is that an actual example?

I'd say that the first one ( コメントするものはありません ) suggest the speaker was looking for something to comment on but can't find any.
The other one implies that the speaker isn't interested in making comments.
Considering the possibilities in real life, the second one happens more often than the first.

 

[Glenn]

Oh, alright. Thanks for that. I suppose that's due to the "analytical" nature of こと as opposed to the more emotional and warm nature of もの that I remember reading about in the Dictionary(ies) of Japanese Grammar. That's an interesting difference.

 

[Toritoribe]

The pattern of こと/ものはありません as below (Fairly interchangeable, I think !). Besides もの possibly more emphatic and colorful, any more implications of one over the other?


コメントするものはありません

コメントすることはありません

Grammatically (as always , the former もの is a pronoun, whereas the latter one is a nominalizer, as epigene-san interpreted. So if the verb ありません is いません in the first sentence, もの changes the meaning to "person" or "There is no one who comments on." When コメントするものではありません, もの is a nominalizer; "You shouldn't do such a comment/You shouldn't comment in such a case."

EDIT:
When the latter one means "I have nothing to comment on," こと is a pronoun, too. I interpreted it as "there's no need to comment."

 

[Elizabeth]

OK, thanks everyone ! And be patient. I am trying to be focused on how to make sense of the grammar not from English but from a Japanese point of view...so the original sentence with 何もコメントするものはありません was 鳩山 on the news today in a context of his brother changing political affiliation. The jist as far as I caught it was "Because it is the other party, "I have nothing to comment on." (No comment from my side concerning them).

So if we need to parse as epigene-san demonstrated to see subtle distinctions, it could have been either もの or こと with little change in intent ? Don't have anything to say because I really don't know anything/it isn't my place to comment ? vs. I don't have anything to say out of discretion ? How the differing grammar in terms of pronouns of nominalizers affects the sentence structure and meaning is a little bit like hitting a cultural/linguistic brick wall at this point.