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Can もの follow a noun?

jellofish

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I want to say "it should be our responsibility"

so... これは私達の責任ものだ?

But I have only seen もの follows verbs and adjectives. :unsure:
 

Ben Bullock

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I want to say "it should be our responsibility"

so... これは私達の責任ものだ?

But I have only seen もの follows verbs and adjectives.
I don't understand your question. As I understand it, you translated "it should be our responsibility" into Japanese and put the "mono" there, and now you want to know if that was right or not? Why did you decide to put the "mono" there? If you have only seen "mono" after verbs and adjectives, I can't understand why you would decide to put it there. This doesn't make sense to me. Anyway, as far as I'm able to tell the above sentence is wrong because of the "mono". But if you remove the "mono" it's OK.
 

Glenn

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You could also make it なのだ instead of ものだ, but like Ben said, it isn't right like that (and it doesn't carry the meaning you're going for). That said, I don't understand the original English sentence. What do you mean by "should?" これは私達の責任のはずだ means "this should be our responsibility" in the sense that we expected it was our responsibility (but for some reason someone else is trying to take over or something). これは私達の責任であるべきだ is "this should be our responsibility" as in unlike now, where it's someone else's responsibility, it should be ours.

Are you restricting もの to just this usage? If not, there's 小心者 (しょうしんもの), Nそのもの, 何者 (なにもの), etc. But the first and third are words where もの is a part of them, and the second one is a grammatical construction of its own that serves to emphasize the noun that came before it.
 

Toritoribe

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I want to say "it should be our responsibility"

so... これは私達の責任ものだ?

But I have only seen もの follows verbs and adjectives.
"noun + もの" means "thing/work regarding~", or "thing corresponding to~".
e.g.
学園もの: campus-life story
ノーベル賞ものの発見: a discovery worthy of a Nobel Prize

6 名詞の下に付いて複合語をつくる。

1.その種類にはいる品物・作品の意を表す。「SF―」「 現代―」

2.それに相当するもの、それだけの価値のあるもの、な どの意を表す。「冷や汗―」「表彰状―」

http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?p=%E3...type=0&dtype=0

In some context, you can say 責任もの as "our responsibility."

これが失敗したら、私達の責任ものだぞ。
If this event fails, we will be held responsible for the result.
 

Glenn

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Oh, I don't think I was aware of that usage. Thanks, Toritoribe!
 

Elizabeth

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"noun + もの" means "thing/work regarding~", or "thing corresponding to~".
e.g.
学園もの: campus-life story
ノーベル賞ものの発見: a discovery worthy of a Nobel Prize
http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?p=もの&enc=UTF-8&stype=0&dtype=0
In some context, you can say 責任もの as "our responsibility."
これが失敗したら、私達の責任もの責任ものぞ。
If this event fails, we will be held responsible for the result.
責任をするものだ.... Should contain nearly the same meaning ? もの in more formal speech or writing as a substitute for べき. Although one I think I've only seen in the negative....:?
 

Glenn

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責任を取るべきだ I think is more standard usage. 「責任」は「する」ものでしょうか。
 

Toritoribe

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責任をするものだ.... Should contain nearly the same meaning ? もの in more formal speech or writing as a substitute for べき. Although one I think I've only seen in the negative....:?
That's a bit different from this usage, more likely a nominalizer.

男たるもの、こういうときは責任を取るものだ。

EDIT:
また同時レス😊
 

epigene

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責任をするものだ.... Should contain nearly the same meaning ? もの in more formal speech or writing as a substitute for べき. Although one I think I've only seen in the negative....:?
It should be: 責任をとる or 責任を持つ

AFAIK, the 責任もの usage Toritoribe-san mentioned is more colloquial in usage. I don't think it has been fully accepted in formal Japanese writing--maybe on the brink of acceptance but not yet (from our generation's perspective... 😊 )

Edit: ですね… 
 

Elizabeth

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It should be: 責任をとる or 責任を持つ
AFAIK, the 責任もの usage Toritoribe-san mentioned is more colloquial in usage. I don't think it has been fully accepted in formal Japanese writing--maybe on the brink of acceptance but not yet (from our generation's perspective... 😊 )
Edit: ですね… 
OH, yes. There was something strange about that all along. I listen to the radio all night these days and I'm barely functioning this morning. 😌

But I do hear 責任をとる or (私たち)に責任がある in about equal amounts...;-)
 

Glenn

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何で私だけが編集できないのか!!!!!!!
 

epigene

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何で私だけが編集できないのか!!!!!!!
えぇ~~、すんません、店長 (admin) に聞いてください。
わたし、バイトなもんで。。。。
:p
 

Putrefaction

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Er, actually...I don't mean to trespass on jellofish's thread, but:

ノーベル賞ものの発見: a discovery worthy of a Nobel Prize
Nobel Prize thing relating to 's discovery

This makes sense for me.

これが失敗したら、私達の責任ものだぞ。
If this event fails, we will be held responsible for the result.

This is a little different. The first part I understand, if this fails. But the second part? We's (our) responsibility relating to is. So roughly, I understand the sentence, but it doesn't click.
 

Glenn

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This is a little different. The first part I understand, if this fails. But the second part? We's (our) responsibility relating to is. So roughly, I understand the sentence, but it doesn't click.

I believe it would fall under this definition:

それに相当するもの、それだけの価値のあるもの、な どの意を表す。「冷や汗―」「表彰状―」

I guess it's saying that you believe it will be looked at by other people as being something that equates to your responsibility (私達の責任相当するもの), or that they will see it as being of a value equaling your responsibility (私達の責任だけの価値がある). Alright, so that second translation attempt was weird, but do you understand what I mean?

Glenn-san bakkari ja nai to omou....:)

I guess we'll see. I asked about it in the "editing problems" thread in the support subforum.

I guess we'll see. I asked about it in the "editing problems" thread in the support subforum.

Sorry, 私達の責任相当するもの should be 私達の責任相当するもの. I would have just edited it, but I can't.
 
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Putrefaction

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I will reflect on this, as I always do...but I will definitely send you a PM or write on your wall.
 

Elizabeth

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That's a bit different from this usage, more likely a nominalizer.
男たるもの、こういうときは責任を取るものだ。
EDIT:
また同時レス😊
Z6AFA.gif[接頭]形容詞や形容動詞の語幹に付く。

1 なんとなくそのような状態であるという意を表す。「―悲しい」「―寂しい」「―静か」

2 いかにもそうであるという意を表す。「―めずらしい」「―すさまじい」

Although whatever the grammatical form, 責任を取るものだ basically follows in meaning 責任ものだ ?

And BTW, ものだ to express what one must or must not do doesn't follow adjectives, only verbs ? Or these are the definitions that only come after adjectives ? I don't understand the Yahoo definitions then. Because there are more implications of ものだ after adjectives (some listed prior in the entry under もの) than adding emotional intensity.
 

jellofish

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Thank you for the replies😅

Actually I found the usage of もの from this sentense below

学生は勉強するものだ
(Students should study)

I want to use もの to carry the meaning of べき

But I don't know how to connect a noun with もの

Do i have to make every nouns into verbs in order to use もの like 責任をとる ?
 

Glenn

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もの and べき aren't the same thing. The "should" that もの means is more of a general rule type of "should," whereas べき carries more of a "in this instance so-and-so should..." type of meaning.

Compare:
べき
「この件(けん)についての責任(せきにん)はすべて 幹部(かんぶ)がとるべきだ」
「無責任(むせきにん)な批判(ひはん)はなすべきで はない」
「現代(げんだい)はなにごとも地球規模(ちきゅうき ぼ)で考えるべきだ」

もの
「そんな時は何も聞かずにいてあげるものだ」
「子供は早く寝るものだ」
「弱い者いじめをするものじゃないよ」

もの doesn't take anything other than verbs in this usage. (according to どんな時どう使う日本語表現文型500 中・上級)
 

Elizabeth

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I think べきだ and ものだ are basically interchangeable used as a general rule to express what one must or should do as a member of society -- social mores of behavior and common sense rules of the culture -- but not when addressing an individual action in particular (ものだ doesn't apply there, like Glenn-san clarified). :)

「大人は、こんなことで怒るべきではない」
→怒らないのが普通である。 大人なら、こんなことでは怒らないのが常識である)


「大人は、こんなことで怒るべきではない」
→(こんなことで怒るのは、大人としてよくない。
大人なら、こんなことで怒ってはいけない)
 
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Toritoribe

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Thank you for the replies
blush1.gif

Actually I found the usage of もの from this sentense below
学生は勉強するものだ
(Students should study)
I want to use もの to carry the meaning of べき
But I don't know how to connect a noun with もの
Do i have to make every nouns into verbs in order to use もの like 責任をとる ?
5 他の語句を受けて、その語句の内容を体言化する形式名 詞。
----------------------
3.(「…するものだ」の形で)それが当然であるという 気持ちを示す。「先輩の忠告は聞く―だ」「困ったとき は助け合う―だ」
「もの」の検索結果 - Yahoo!辞書

As Glenn-san explained, "verb/adjective + もの" connotes "generally speaking." Actually, 学生は勉強するものだ is a good example; "Generally speaking, students should study."

[接頭]形容詞や形容動詞の語幹に付く。

1 なんとなくそのような状態であるという意を表す。「― 悲しい」「―寂しい」「―静か」

2 いかにもそうであるという意を表す。「―めずらしい」 「―すさまじい」

Although whatever the grammatical form, 責任を取るものだ basically follows in meaning 責任ものだ ?

And BTW, ものだ to express what one must or must not do doesn't follow adjectives, only verbs ? Or these are the definitions that only come after adjectives ? I don't understand the Yahoo definitions then. Because there are more implications of ものだ after adjectives (some listed prior in the entry under もの) than adding emotional intensity.
Are you referring to the prefix usage?
 

Glenn

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Thank you for the replies
blush1.gif

Actually I found the usage of もの from this sentense below
学生は勉強するものだ
(Students should study)
That's the exact same first sentence used in 中上級を教えるための日本語文法ハンドブック. The second one is 包丁(ほうちょう)はよく研(と)いで使うものだ (you should sharpen knives before using them).
I want to use もの to carry the meaning of べき
But I don't know how to connect a noun with もの
Do i have to make every nouns into verbs in order to use もの like 責任をとる ?
I didn't think of this before, but do you have a specific example of a sentence with a noun that you want to use ものだ with to mean "should?" That would help sort things out, methinks.

Thanks for noticing the wrong reading/word, @Putrefaction !
 
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Putrefaction

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As Glenn-san explained, "verb/adjective + もの" connotes "generally speaking." Actually, 学生は勉強するものだ is a good example; "Genarally speaking, students should study."

So then, 高山のような町は忙しいものです。means "Generally speaking, towns like Takayama are busy."

However in my mind the 忙しいもの could just be "busy things"...so towns like Takayama are busy things...er...

and Glenn's sentence of

(これは)私達の責任に相当するもの

Would mean "Generally speaking, this is our fitting responsibility" ?

If I am right I will try それに相当するもの、それだけの価値のあるもの but perhaps in my own topic, I don't want to ruin this topic with my questions; rather I hope my attempts can help the discussion...
 
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