Pick-up Artists

[Tsuyoiko]

I watched an episode of The Mentalist the other day (good show, recommended ), which involved a character who was a pick-up artist. I had never heard of such a thing. The idea intrigued me, so I looked into it a bit more.

Apparently, there are guys who go out looking for girls with the sole aim of getting sex. That's obvious I know, but I'm not talking about ordinary guys who just go out and chat up girls. These guys employ certain techniques designed to maximise their chances, with the sole aim of having sex with as many girls as possible. There are even books and seminars available for men who want to learn these techniques.

This site gives a good idea of the techniques involved:
Pickupartistmindset.com


I admit to being somewhat sceptical as to whether such guys exist outside of TV shows and internet money-making schemes, but I'll assume for argument's sake that they do.

A lot of the stuff is pretty obvious and harmless, like take care of your appearance, and be interesting. But some of the more manipulative tricks are pretty worrying, like tricking a girl into getting undressed when she has already refused to have sex.

Worryingly, even at my age, I can't in all honesty say that these tricks wouldn't work on me, even given the foreknowledge that they are tricks. More worrying than that is the possibility that there are girls falling for these tricks in the mistaken belief that the guy likes them personally, in which case they are likely to get hurt. Or perhaps there are girls who realise halfway through that they're being tricked, but feel too pressured at that point to turn back.

What do you think about these guys? Do they really exist? Do you think you've ever been hit on by a pick-up artist? Do you think there are female pick-up artists too?

 

[Haruspex]

Old-fashioned rape, spiked drinks and now this. How desperate are people to do each other?
My opinion is that these 'methods' are aimed at circumventing the whole system of freely given consent. If consent is acquired through fraudulent trickery, then that must be rape.
I believe that such conduct must be criminalised and these people convicted.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

I believe that such conduct must be criminalised and these people convicted.

That was my first reaction too, but I think it would be extremely difficult to legislate and even harder to get a conviction. It's hard enough to secure a conviction in straightforward rape cases. Clearly, we can't just make it illegal to buy an unknown girl a drink in a bar, so at what point does the behaviour start to become criminal? I think that point would be very hard to fix.

 

[nice gaijin]

You can't protect people from themselves, or their poor decisions.

 

[Jericho Desu]

Unfortunetly I know abit about this, a former-friend once recommended me a book called "The Game" by this guy Neil Strauss and I was pretty shocked by it and disgusted that such a "world" of these people exist, apparently it's quite big.

Also another thing, during my teen years and my quite dedicated *ehem* research into the *ehem* adult world I came across a site where this guy used some psychological methods or what have you to get girls who think they are at his workplace (?) for a modelling job because he placed some ad in the papers to do alot more then... model. Alot of guys apparently thanked him for "understanding women more", but there were also vids of him messing up (which were quite funny). I still can't believe how he was able to do it, friggen crazy...

 

[Haruspex]

Yes, from poor decisions grown, healthy adults in the right mind make you cannot protect them, but in this case this is circumvention. These people exploit pre-existing weaknesses attributable to various factors such as age, mental facilities, personal circumstances, etc. Almost all people have some sort of weakness. The idea is that they do not acquire consent through 'negotiation' but through trickery.

I will admit that it is quite difficult to come up with effective sanctions, but still, something should be done. Effectively, rape is being disguised as consensual sexual intercourse. Depending on the size of this 'subculture', this may actually become quite a problem I think.

 

[Jericho Desu]

Absolutely agree with you Derfel, it could be quite a big problem if this thing really catches on, I mean no girls will be safe, married, unmarried, won't matter and definitely won't matter to the scum who do this sort of thing, plus people will just say it's the girls own fault for falling for it, but psychological manipulation if done correctly would be very difficult to resist imo.

 

[MyNoteToSelf]

Well, I'd assume that with today's sad society, that's probably all true.

I read the article briefly, and I've got to say that I like the complete opposite kind of man! It's cute when guys seem unexperienced, sweet, and when they "lean in" it makes you feel special. The type of man they described seems like a total player (no surprise there). I think I'd see right through that and not be interested...does anyone else feel the same way?

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Also another thing, during my teen years and my quite dedicated *ehem* research into the *ehem* adult world I came across a site where this guy used some psychological methods or what have you to get girls who think they are at his workplace (?) for a modelling job because he placed some ad in the papers to do alot more then... model. Alot of guys apparently thanked him for "understanding women more", but there were also vids of him messing up (which were quite funny). I still can't believe how he was able to do it, friggen crazy...

That's just plain fraud. If any of the women had tried to sue him for such, I think there's a good chance she would have been successful.

Yes, from poor decisions grown, healthy adults in the right mind make you cannot protect them, but in this case this is circumvention. These people exploit pre-existing weaknesses attributable to various factors such as age, mental facilities, personal circumstances, etc. Almost all people have some sort of weakness. The idea is that they do not acquire consent through 'negotiation' but through trickery.

I will admit that it is quite difficult to come up with effective sanctions, but still, something should be done. Effectively, rape is being disguised as consensual sexual intercourse. Depending on the size of this 'subculture', this may actually become quite a problem I think.

I wonder if at some point a woman who's determined enough, and able to afford a good lawyer, will try to bring a rape case against such a person even without a change in the law. Even if she lost the case, the publicity would hopefully put other women on their guard.

I think I'd see right through that and not be interested...does anyone else feel the same way?

It's also not the kind of guy I would tend to go for; I fell for my husband because his behaviour was just the opposite of what these pick-up artists employ. But I think there are two points about these techniques that make a woman's "type" somewhat irrelevant.

The first point is that these guys expect to fail maybe four times out of five, but since they are hitting on average ten women a week, that's on average two women who fall for the tricks.

psychological manipulation if done correctly would be very difficult to resist imo.

I think JD touches on the second point here. These men aren't trying to make you fall for them. They don't want you to like them, they want you to have sex with them, and for their purposes it's preferable if you don't fall for them. I've never had a guy hit on me for the sole purpose of getting sex, so it's hard to say how I would react if that happened. But I think that's part of the manipulation. Since most of us are used to being chatted up by a guy who hopes we will like him and maybe even fall for him, we don't have much experience of these pick-up techniques. So I think just the novelty of the approach will turn a lot of women's heads.

 

[Damicci]

Are you kidding me? It's crime to better your chances to have sex with someone? Rape is a totally different scale. Forcing someone to have sex with compared to not really techniques but appealing to someones sexual desires (basically what they do, make themselves more attractive.) is the same thing?

Then politicians should be arrested too. They feed you words you like to hear to get you to be on thier side and screw you when they get in office. (Some not all) If your disgusted by what a pick up artist does then that's you but to a me pick up artist is nothing more than someone looking to "pick up" women like any other john doe but with a better skill to turn no's into yes'.

It's same thing with people who are good at bargaining and can get a lower price because they are good with words, or those who sell cars or any other commodity. I really don't see how this could be compared to forceful violation of one's human existence and criminal activity.

pick up techniques are mind manipulation to those who allow it. Love and sex is just a game for the most part anywyay the people who win are the one's that get what they want.

Bottom line is IF no parties are mentally or physically scarred then move on with your life. I say if b/c situations like using someones misfortune to convince them to having sex is morally wrong.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Are you kidding me? It's crime to better your chances to have sex with someone?

It should be, if the techniques you employ are such that the person you're trying to have sex with feels that they don't have a free choice. The general ethos of "the game" is not to persuade a woman to have sex with you through negotiation, in which she is at any time free to decline, but to manipulate her in such a way as to circumvent that free choice, to put a woman in a position in which she feels unable to say no.

Rape is a totally different scale. Forcing someone to have sex with compared to not really techniques but appealing to someones sexual desires (basically what they do, make themselves more attractive.) is the same thing?

As I said in my OP, I don't object to the advice about making yourself more attractive; it's the more aggressive techniques that I question.

It's not the same thing as rape, but neither is it on a different scale. It's somewhere lower on the same scale. These guys might not be physically forcing women to have sex with them, but they are treating women as a commodity. From the site I posted:

"trick your mind into lowering her value so that your game towards her is tighter"

That's downright disrespectful. He even advocates getting a woman drunk to lower her judgment:

"Just one drink increases the chance you will get laid about 20%. Three drinks in her system is all you need."

Basically, these guys are treating women as a thing to have sex with, not as human beings. At no point do they ask themselves the question, "What does she want?" That's what I object to most strongly.

If your disgusted by what a pick up artist does then that's you but to a me pick up artist is nothing more than someone looking to "pick up" women like any other john doe but with a better skill to turn no's into yes'.

It's that manipulation that I object to. A "no" should be respected.

It's same thing with people who are good at bargaining and can get a lower price because they are good with words, or those who sell cars or any other commodity. I really don't see how this could be compared to forceful violation of one's human existence and criminal activity.

That's a good analogy, and I think some marketing activities are similarly objectionable. I would be outraged if someone manipulated me into buying something I didn't want by using psychological tricks, and I doubt I'm alone in feeling that way. I'd be even more outraged if they took my body rather than my money, which is what these pick-up artists try to do.

Bottom line is IF no parties are mentally or physically scarred then move on with your life. I say if b/c situations like using someones misfortune to convince them to having sex is morally wrong.

The point is that I think it's pretty likely that people will get mentally scarred if they are tricked in this way. I'm not just concerned for the mental health of the women either. I question the mental wellbeing of any man who's so desperate to get laid that he thinks it's OK to treat women in this way.

 

[Damicci]

Your points are valid but not strong enough IMHO to elate the ability of creating one night stands with criminal acts.

Have to remember that all persons involved are adults and have thier own choices to accept. Your suggested site even says "The men making the most attempts at picking up women are also the ones that get rejected the most." So it's not like some full proof plan to hypnotize women into sleeping with them. All they is use words to help more promiscuous type women sleep with them. These are more than likely the women with the same shallow sensibility to sleep with a guy because he has money thinking that man will eventually take care of them.

Also remember there are women out there like this too.

 

[RavenRockstar]

I read the article briefly, and I've got to say that I like the complete opposite kind of man! It's cute when guys seem unexperienced, sweet, and when they "lean in" it makes you feel special. The type of man they described seems like a total player (no surprise there). I think I'd see right through that and not be interested...does anyone else feel the same way?

I must say I agree. The kind of person they describe is alomst the opposite of what I find attractive.
I have a thing for cute guys lol

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Your points are valid but not strong enough IMHO to elate the ability of creating one night stands with criminal acts.

By no means did I intend to suggest that one-night stands in themselves should be considered criminal acts. That's one reason why I'm sceptical of the possibility of any change in the law being feasible.

These are more than likely the women with the same shallow sensibility to sleep with a guy because he has money thinking that man will eventually take care of them.

Also remember there are women out there like this too.

I'm sure you're right. I wonder how many men have been hurt by women who turned out to be only after their money?

 

[FrustratedDave]

That book "Bang" , I ORDERING IT RIGHT NOW!!!!! This is awsome , I can't believe I have not seen this before.

This will for sure ensure me some action from the wife, at the moment I am reduced to begging and pleading and even that doesn't work most of the time. But the one on how to get them to take their clothes off and upping your chance for sex is a bit off, my wife sleeps in her underwear and it doesn7T help me any, all I get is a backhand across the face and "I am too tired" remark.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Is that why you're frustrated, Dave? ;-)

 

[FrustratedDave]

Is that why you're frustrated, Dave? ;-)

Pretty much!

 

[Damicci]

Pretty much!

Haha, that should pretty much end this thread.

 

[Pachipro]

Apparently, there are guys who go out looking for girls with the sole aim of getting sex.

Apparently? I thought it was what all single guys do (Or those on the prowl) when they go out for the night. A males hormones never cease raging. They may slow down with age, but the "urge" never goes away.

These guys employ certain techniques designed to maximise their chances, with the sole aim of having sex with as many girls as possible.

I thought it was the norm for guys to develop techniques to make themselves attractive to the opposite sex in the hopes of maybe having sex as, truthfully, that is way a male is hardwired. Nature made us that way and we must develop "techniques" to stand out from those more masculine, taller, or better looking than ourselves as those guys succeed without even trying. They need not develop "techniques" as most women will throw themselves at them anyway just to GET THEM into bed!

Any man will tell you that he's seen it happen to those more fortunate in the looks and muscular department. The goal of most men who develop a "technique" may not to be to have sex with as many girls as possible, but to at least have a chance with one that he may find attractive one night as they do not have the qualities most woman find attractive right off the bat. Without a "technique" the average male will fail almost every time.

I admit to being somewhat sceptical as to whether such guys exist outside of TV shows and internet money-making schemes, but I'll assume for argument's sake that they do.

Skeptical? Are you serious? Trust me they exist in more numbers than you can imagine. I would even venture to say that ALL men develop their own "technique" that works for them if they are not blessed with the traits mentioned above in order to up their odds of meeting women. A man who does NOT develop his own "technique" will usually not have much luck and is probably introverted and unconfident in himself.

A lot of the stuff is pretty obvious and harmless, like take care of your appearance, and be interesting. But some of the more manipulative tricks are pretty worrying, like tricking a girl into getting undressed when she has already refused to have sex.

I don't think they are manipulative at all. If a woman falls for the "trick" of taking a nap in her underwear because the guy says it is uncomfortable to sleep clothed, she is either totally naive or is really wanting to have sex without saying that she does because she is shy IMO. In 99% of the cases they never worked for me and when a woman meant no, she meant no and I never pushed it further. Besides, I ran across a few women who pulled the same, or similar tricks on me to get me unclothed in my younger years while at their place. So it is not always the male that uses "tricks" on a shy partner. Women are quite adept at using their own "techniques".

Worryingly, even at my age, I can't in all honesty say that these tricks wouldn't work on me, even given the foreknowledge that they are tricks. More worrying than that is the possibility that there are girls falling for these tricks in the mistaken belief that the guy likes them personally, in which case they are likely to get hurt. Or perhaps there are girls who realise halfway through that they're being tricked, but feel too pressured at that point to turn back.

I will grant you that there are women who get tricked by guys "in the mistaken belief that the guy likes them personally, in which case they are likely to get hurt." These guys are to be despised at all costs as their only aim is another notch in their belt and another conquest. "Slam, bam, thank you maam" and they are on to their next conquest as their only goal is sex and nothing else. They will say anything to get a woman into bed even it means making the woman believe they really like her. As the old song goes, "The women get better looking at closing time."

If a woman feels "pressured" then that's a personal problem IMO that she must deal with as she probably cannot bring herself to say no, either because she really likes they guy and feels she may lose him if she does not have sex or she doesn't know how to deal with the situation at hand. Dealing with it probably comes from experience.

Granted there are the "two ships passing in the night" where both parties understand the game and the only goal of both is to have sex and they both probably utilize "techniques" of their own to reach their goals for the night.

I have read the entire first page of link you posted and I really do not see anything wrong in what he is saying to give one an upper hand. Maybe it's because I am a male and understand how hard it is to meet woman if you are not blessed with the gifts that make women throw themselves at you. The alcohol portion may be a little suspect, but all women should know that trick as a man's thinking is "wine is fine, but liquor is quicker."

Besides, it's a known fact that both males and females open up more and are less inhibited when there is a little alcohol in their system. As long as both parties understand that, then I see nothing wrong with it. If a woman is going to a place where alcohol is served to socialize and meet the opposite sex she should at least have that basic understanding. Still that is no reason for a man to take advantage of her if her intention is "no".

Finally, there are women pick-up artists also and there have been many books written on the subject by, and for, women on how best to pick up a guy that they are attracted to but who shows no interest in them and some are downright deceitful in the same vein, and probably more so, than what a man does. It is a fact that a man is very, very weak when a woman is sexual towards him and will usually give in much more easily than a woman would as that is the way we are wired. Any man, I don't care who he is, will cheat on his wife or girlfriend if the right woman threw themselves at him. Just look at all the scandals involving prominent male personalities and politicians and you will understand. It takes a really strong man to say no when a sexy woman makes advances and lets you know she's "available".

The male is definitely the weaker sex when it comes to sex.

 

[Haruspex]

My hormones are not raging. I'm in complete control actually. Barely have any 'urges' so to speak. Maybe I'm just odd.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

I thought it was the norm for guys to develop techniques to make themselves attractive to the opposite sex in the hopes of maybe having sex as, truthfully, that is way a male is hardwired. Nature made us that way and we must develop "techniques" to stand out from those more masculine, taller, or better looking than ourselves as those guys succeed without even trying. They need not develop "techniques" as most women will throw themselves at them anyway just to GET THEM into bed!

In most cases I have slept with the men I have because I liked them despite their bumbling attempts to get me into bed. In my experience (and of course I'm generalising) there are three kinds of men. There are good looking men who get women without trying, and pretty much take it for granted. It goes without saying that they don't bother with any techniques. Then there are the men with attractive personalities, who you just can't help liking even if they're not particularly good-looking. They don't need techniques because their natural personalities make them attractive. Then there are guys who are neither good-looking nor attractive in their personalities. I know a lot of guys in this third category, and they are for the most part either single and resigned to it, or married to girls who are in the same "league".

The goal of most men who develop a "technique" may not to be to have sex with as many girls as possible, but to at least have a chance with one that he may find attractive one night as they do not have the qualities most woman find attractive right off the bat. Without a "technique" the average male will fail almost every time.

That's not what I'm objecting to. I think it's fine if a man tries to make himself more attractive to a girl he likes, in the hope they will start a relationship. The goal of pick-up artists is to have sex with as many girls as possible. I don't even object to that in itself, if the guy is upfront about his intentions. I knew a guy who used quite aggressive techniques to get me undressed, but since he was totally honest from the first that his goal was to have sex without any interest in a relationship, I didn't have a problem with it. It's the deception and manipulation that I object to. The advice is all about getting what you want, with no consideration of what a girl might want. It's this lack of honesty and respect that offends me.

Skeptical? Are you serious? Trust me they exist in more numbers than you can imagine. I would even venture to say that ALL men develop their own "technique" that works for them if they are not blessed with the traits mentioned above in order to up their odds of meeting women. A man who does NOT develop his own "technique" will usually not have much luck and is probably introverted and unconfident in himself.

I'm sceptical because in my experience most men don't employ any techniques and don't sleep with many women. The "players" are the obviously attractive guys who don't need techniques. Everyone else is either in a long-term relationship or not getting any.

I don't think they are manipulative at all. If a woman falls for the "trick" of taking a nap in her underwear because the guy says it is uncomfortable to sleep clothed, she is either totally naive or is really wanting to have sex without saying that she does because she is shy IMO.

If she is totally naive then it's wrong to trick her. That's the point. Most of us are naive when it comes to these techniques, because for the most part they are outside our experience.

In 99% of the cases they never worked for me and when a woman meant no, she meant no and I never pushed it further.

Again, that's the point. You didn't push it further. Some of these techniques are about pushing it further. To use Damicci's phrase, they are about turning a "no" into a "yes", when a "no" should be respected.

Women are quite adept at using their own "techniques".

I don't deny that and by concentrating on male pick-up artists I'm not intending to imply that female pick-up artists don't exist.

I will grant you that there are women who get tricked by guys "in the mistaken belief that the guy likes them personally, in which case they are likely to get hurt." These guys are to be despised at all costs as their only aim is another notch in their belt and another conquest. "Slam, bam, thank you maam" and they are on to their next conquest as their only goal is sex and nothing else. They will say anything to get a woman into bed even it means making the woman believe they really like her. As the old song goes, "The women get better looking at closing time."

This is what I mean by pick-up artists, and these are precisely the guys I object to.

If a woman feels "pressured" then that's a personal problem IMO that she must deal with as she probably cannot bring herself to say no, either because she really likes they guy and feels she may lose him if she does not have sex or she doesn't know how to deal with the situation at hand. Dealing with it probably comes from experience.

If a woman feels pressured it's not a personal problem if she's either unable to work out how to say no, or afraid of the consequences of saying no. If a man puts her in this position then it's HIS problem. You're no doubt right that dealing with it comes with experience, but if a girl doesn't have that experience, then putting her in that position is wrong.

The male is definitely the weaker sex when it comes to sex.

Studies have shown that men's libidos are generally higher, that they think about sex more often than women and are more straightforward. However, underlying drives can't be used as an excuse for bad behaviour. I would love to give my work colleague a good slapping, but I suppress the urge.

By the same token, women with low sex drives should come to some compromise to better satisfy their men. I think women who are tired or have headaches every night should make more effort to get aroused, just as men who want it every night should sometimes take "no" for an answer.

My hormones are not raging. I'm in complete control actually. Barely have any 'urges' so to speak. Maybe I'm just odd.

I don't think you're odd Derfel. Despite the studies, in my experience males' libidos vary considerably. I have known men who practically demanded sex two or three times every day, and I've known men who always waited for me to make the first move.

 

[Damicci]

Originally Posted by Pachipro View Post

The male is definitely the weaker sex when it comes to sex.

Studies have shown that men's libidos are generally higher, that they think about sex more often than women and are more straightforward. However, underlying drives can't be used as an excuse for bad behaviour. I would love to give my work colleague a good slapping, but I suppress the urge.

By the same token, women with low sex drives should come to some compromise to better satisfy their men. I think women who are tired or have headaches every night should make more effort to get aroused, just as men who want it every night should sometimes take "no" for an answer.

I think this maybe more meant towards, men tend to be weaker when the idea of sex is involved. Men make stupid decisions.

 

[bakaKanadajin]

Women want sex as much as men do they're just hard-wired to be way pickier because for them any sex involves the possibility of a larger (9 month) commitment. Men are the opposite, they're not as picky, the level of commitment is low and it's a quantity over quality game. This leads to the proverbial battle of the sexes. The fact that men have honed their skills and gotten better at picking up women shouldn't be surprising. They're doing what comes naturally.

Men are often tricked by women in this same way too, let's not forget. It's called giving awesome sex to your husband and being an angel before marriage and taking it away and being a cast-iron taskmaster after marriage. It's how women get themselves a companion to bear children, pay bills and provide an atmosphere of security in which to raise the kids. Granted this is not the same as men picking up women in bars and it's not quite as conscious and effort but it's a reality. There are many sexually frustrated, over-worked, penny-less men here in Japan who cower in fear from their diminutive bank-book yielding wives.

Men and women are hard-wired differently and do different things to get what they 'want'. Many daily actions and reactions are results of this underlying, ancient impulse.

 

[FrustratedDave]

Women want sex as much as men do they're just hard-wired to be way pickier because for them any sex involves the possibility of a larger (9 month) commitment. Men are the opposite, they're not as picky, the level of commitment is low and it's a quantity over quality game. This leads to the proverbial battle of the sexes. The fact that men have honed their skills and gotten better at picking up women shouldn't be surprising. They're doing what comes naturally.

Men are often tricked by women in this same way too, let's not forget. It's called giving awesome sex to your husband and being an angel before marriage and taking it away and being a cast-iron taskmaster after marriage. It's how women get themselves a companion to bear children, pay bills and provide an atmosphere of security in which to raise the kids. Granted this is not the same as men picking up women in bars and it's not quite as conscious and effort but it's a reality. There are many sexually frustrated, over-worked, penny-less men here in Japan who cower in fear from their diminutive bank-book yielding wives.

Men and women are hard-wired differently and do different things to get what they 'want'. Many daily actions and reactions are results of this underlying, ancient impulse.

I am going to cry now... Why? B/c you were able to sum up me in a single post! J/K

 

[bakaKanadajin]

I am going to cry now... Why? B/c you were able to sum up me in a single post! J/K

buahah good one.
Well, if it makes you feel any better we all reach that stage at some point and you're in the right country if you're hoping to find drinking buddies who share your pain!