Japan's education problems... is it the lack of critical thinking?

[Glenski]

I believe a good percentage of Japanese in some specific fields do have practical-creativity & applied innovativeness

Pretty vague response. "Good percentage". What's that? 15% 32% 68% At least give us a ballpark figure of what you "believe".

"Specific fields". No argument there, but we're talking averages. I hate to keep harping on Nobel and Kyoto Prizes, but there are plenty of fields there, yet Japan does poorly on all of them!

same for other nations or cultures in this world,don't you think ?

No, I don't think so, and neither do the pundits. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. Stick to the topic, please.

I am no expert on the education system in Japan, and have never actually seen it. But, based on what i'm told about it, i feel that perhaps the problem with Japan's education system is that it's too much like America's

Nope. Not like it at all. I really really really hope you read the links provided here, otherwise you people just spout off unjustified opinions based on hearsay. Read this. Education in Japan EDUCATION IN JAPAN

. http://www1.doshisha.ac.jp/~kkitao/library/article/tejk.htm
Teaching English in Japan

Sorry, gotta go to class. Will feed you more, but ya gotta promise to read them!

 

[iwuvvleskaylee]

I breezed over the first link... I find it some what amusing... Admission tests to get into kindergarten? Sounds to me like people go through so much trouble to get in, then they have trouble keeping people interested since they've worked so hard just to get in... The problem seems to be that no one cares (as there doesn't seem to be anything forcing people to do well)... That could be a good thing... My experience with education around the world has me questioning if schooling beyond 5th grade is worth anything more than the "sheep skin."

 

[pipokun]

About the method to hire new recruits...

It is not about the critical thinking, but just a different corporate culture from the US.
Generally, Japanese corporations prefer hiring graduate students to Ph.Ds., so you can find the problem of Dr. Freeter.
And if a corporate researcher want to climb up their corporate ladder, you have to be a generalist after they spend certain amount of time as a researcher.

Needless to say, the different career path from the US has nothing to do with the critical thinking, just another rat race after all.

 

[AroundTheWorld]

Coming from the perspective of an American college student, so don't take this as favoritism:

I think American children are given too much slack. Granted, the Japanese system is strict with examination hell and less vacation time, but I'd be downright disgraced by the academic capacity of some kids that graduate high school in America. At the same time, I think that Japan could do with making school tests a bit easier on its students. I have had many Japanese penpals complain about juku or examination hell, and the high expectations that everyone around them has for them. At the same time, like I said, I think many Americans are lazy.

American kids are taught to speak out and follow their heart, Japanese kids are taught to persevere and sacrifice for the good of the group. You can't blame differences in education on differences in culture. Neither education system is perfect, and neither is a horrible system.

But no, I do not think that Japanese children are lacking in critical thinking, at least not in the ways the Japanese value. Western critical thinking can be rude and often leads to circular logic in individuals without knowledge in a topic field.

I think that we try and teach our children information that is not vital to their career/lives too early, so they are uninterested. I'm sure this happens in any culture. Children should have some academic choices early on, so that they stay interested in school.

Perhaps make examinations a bit easier, though?

 

[Glenski]

But no, I do not think that Japanese children are lacking in critical thinking, at least not in the ways the Japanese value.

And what do you think that may be?

Western critical thinking can be rude and often leads to circular logic in individuals without knowledge in a topic field.

"Often"?

Perhaps make examinations a bit easier, though?

Are you referring only to the college entrance exams? You need to learn a few things.

1. With the declining population here, by 2050, the acceptance rate for universities will be 100%, which means no matter what exam they take (if they take any at all), they will be accepted.

2. My parenthetical statement above deserves explanation. Schools on the escalator system (sister HS/sister university) don't require entrance exams of their HS graduates. I used to work for one.

3. Universities (and HS) have entrance exams, yes, but not all the time. Some students get in on what is called a "recommendation". And, entrance exams vary in their difficulty: my own university has 3 types, so did my HS.

4. If you are not referring only to entrance exams, here's a little diddy for ya. My previous HS (a fairly prestigious private one) had plenty of the following cases. Japanese teacher gives English test. Student(s) fails. Student gets same exact test and a chance to retake it...6 more times! Still fails, but passes the course. I could cite other examples far worse.

 

[Kirakira1232]

I'm slightly at a loss of where this topic is heading. Are we cross comparing American Education vs. Japanese education? Critical thinking vs. Creativity? Whether critical thinking gets you a so called "real job" or not? What critical thinking means to the Japanese? The Americans? I feel like having a say...but there are just so many things being thrown around I feel a bit lost...

 

[AroundTheWorld]

And what do you think that may be?
"Often"?
Are you referring only to the college entrance exams? You need to learn a few things.
1. With the declining population here, by 2050, the acceptance rate for universities will be 100%, which means no matter what exam they take (if they take any at all), they will be accepted.
2. My parenthetical statement above deserves explanation. Schools on the escalator system (sister HS/sister university) don't require entrance exams of their HS graduates. I used to work for one.
3. Universities (and HS) have entrance exams, yes, but not all the time. Some students get in on what is called a "recommendation". And, entrance exams vary in their difficulty: my own university has 3 types, so did my HS.
4. If you are not referring only to entrance exams, here's a little diddy for ya. My previous HS (a fairly prestigious private one) had plenty of the following cases. Japanese teacher gives English test. Student(s) fails. Student gets same exact test and a chance to retake it...6 more times! Still fails, but passes the course. I could cite other examples far worse.

On the Japanese critical thinking comment, I meant that it takes critical thinking to discern all the subtle meanings in Japanese speech and etiquette, all the double entendres. I'd assume that part of the culture blocks out certain aspects of critical thinking for the Japanese... like the perservere mentality taught to children.

As in often, it certainly depends on who you associate with, or which type of context (formal or informal), but I guess I mean that Americans strong in critical thinking are known to sometimes be too expressive in their views, pushy even.

I was, but I was also aware of the other exams. And yes, everyone can stand to learn a few things, and I thank you for educating me. Most of my research on the Japanese school system is regrettably about 10 years out of date by now, forgive me.

As for the university entrance, I bet a lot of people shoot for the more prestigous schools because they don't want to end up as sararimen.

 

[iwuvvleskaylee]

As in often, it certainly depends on who you associate with, or which type of context (formal or informal), but I guess I mean that Americans strong in critical thinking are known to sometimes be too expressive in their views, pushy even.

As an american, i can tell you there isn't much "critical thinking" in this country, even from collage students. We are lazy, and to top it off we are taught alot of opinionated BS. Not hard to see why americans are arrogant and stupid. Sit in an american class for a week and you'll really get the idea of why americans are the way they are. School in america is (or seem to be) to teach opinions not facts, contrary to what most americans believe.

We're taught to speak out our mind, even when we know or don't know it's wrong. We're taught to tell everyone how we feel, including strangers if it "makes you feel better." We learn only Evolution, and reject the teaching of any opposing beliefs/opinions, and there are lots more examples, but i feel i may be too indoctrinated to point them out. People outside of the US are quick to criticise americans, but they don't know why we are "stupid" and "arrogant."

I'm slightly at a loss of where this topic is heading. Are we cross comparing American Education vs. Japanese education? Critical thinking vs. Creativity? Whether critical thinking gets you a so called "real job" or not? What critical thinking means to the Japanese? The Americans? I feel like having a say...but there are just so many things being thrown around I feel a bit lost...

I'd love to know... Though this topic is more along the lines of serious discussion... Though, i'm partially at fault.

Needless to say, the different career path from the US has nothing to do with the critical thinking, just another rat race after all.

It's true. People try to get the best position with the least work as possible. Capitalism is good with products, but we can see that it doesn't work well with students. Countries always try to make the curriculum easier to try to "help" students make it. Students are going to do horribly and fail. Weakening the system doesn't help any. Making content easier doesn't help any. Making tests easier doesn't help any. You're just giving everyone an excuse to be lazier if you do that kinda stuff.

I have a really good example. I wake up today, and i find some one asked me something while i was asleep. The problem was, he was in my "Advanced Placement" computer science class.

(12:01:48 PM) NAME REMOVED: i need to know if the motherboard of a computer can handle the ram you want to put in it is there anything special that is needed to be done to install it?
(12:02:24 PM) NAME REMOVED: this is on a vista machine

That's right, an advanced placement student. To truely understand the situation, you must know a little bit about his machine. He runs an AMD Phenom. That means he has a 64bit CPU, and based on what all is released right now, he should be able to use it since not much is too much for the top of the line CPU right now. Now, a short lesson on computer architecture of the intel/amd design will clearly show that he is clueless about it, since it is clear he's asking about device drivers for RAM. See, as a self taught computer student, i can tell you that the computer is made up of 3 major parts from the CPU's point of view. The CPU, Memory, and everything else (I/O devices). When you write a program (including device drivers), it has to first be read into the ram before exectued. Therefore, if a CPU needed device drivers to use RAM, it wouldn't work, because it needs ram to read the device drivers for the ram. Understand? See how much he learns in class? You'd think something like that would be one of the first lessons in computer science, but actually the first lessons are how much better something is than something else. The subject of computer science is an opinion in itself. The course is actually about Java. Java is a program that emulates a computer and operating system, but we don't learn anything about the JVM, actually, except it's special features (all of which are evaluated based on opinion more than fact). How did i learn about computers in that course? All i "learned" was how much better Java is than everything else and how to use Java. So much for learning about computers in that class. Thank God i study outside of school.

 

[tokapi]

As an american,I can tell you there isn't much "critical thinking" in this country,even from college students.

We are taught alot of opinionated BS.

We're taught to speak out our mind, even when we know or don't know it's wrong.

Thanks so much for honest down to earth post

 

[Glenski]

Would be nice if the original poster returned once in a while to steer the thread. I'm done with it until it's back on course. WAY too far off on tangents now (and didn't I just recently copy/paste the very first post's question...?).

 

[bakaKanadajin]

I read the original post and the article which was also provided. My limited teaching experience would tend to agree with the material presented insofar as the Japanese definitely aren't accustomed to being vocal about issues and formulating strong, individualized opinions about things. Many generalizations do come to mind about the fabric of Japanese society being one of 'high-context' (economy of words, minimalism, Zen, whatever you wish to call it), as well as conformist pressure and other assaults on Western ideas of 'the individual'.

But I don't know that I'd really go so far as to say that it's inferior to the American system or that the Japanese lack creativity. Creativity is expressed in a multitude of ways and is inimical to the human experience. Other cultures that could be labelled as 'dull' or uncreative are the Germans and the Swiss (and that's despite the low-context high-precision of the German language). If anything, I'd imagine a high-context, minimalist approach to communication would foster greater creativity and imagination as it leaves so much open to interpretation. The author of the article commented on the akward and sometimes detrimental results of miscommunication and the need to read-into things, but there are negatives to any issue. The positives on the other hand are quite impressive, but getting into 'why I love Japanese culture' would be going off-topic.

The educational background I come from might be considered on paper to be a quite classical and privileged one, i.e. private high school and our own Canadian version of 'IV League' post-secondary education. Despite that, I can't say anyone ever truly attempted to stoke the fires of creativity in my mind, I had to ask my own questions and this usually conflicted with the professor or teacher who had a syllabus he or she wanted to get through.

Unless you're dabbling in philosophy or something like that, simple factual regurgitation is the mainstay of most modern education systems. Throwing in a debate here and there might make a few people feel more empowered and vocal but it won't dramatically improve the content, most debates are still centered around fleshing out the original material or two sides of the same coin.

 

[Kirakira1232]

On the Japanese critical thinking comment, I meant that it takes critical thinking to discern all the subtle meanings in Japanese speech and etiquette, all the double entendres. I'd assume that part of the culture blocks out certain aspects of critical thinking for the Japanese... like the perservere mentality taught to children.
As in often, it certainly depends on who you associate with, or which type of context (formal or informal), but I guess I mean that Americans strong in critical thinking are known to sometimes be too expressive in their views, pushy even.
I was, but I was also aware of the other exams. And yes, everyone can stand to learn a few things, and I thank you for educating me. Most of my research on the Japanese school system is regrettably about 10 years out of date by now, forgive me.
As for the university entrance, I bet a lot of people shoot for the more prestigous schools because they don't want to end up as sararimen.

Critical thinking...really is not so much about etiquette. Its more along the lines of understanding and questioning established fact or theory instead of just rote learning facts. Its important in fields like science or humanities where there is a need to question and re-test theories or hypotheses.

The OP i think was critical of the Japanese education system because of its big emphasis on rote learning. Critical thinking calls more for understanding and questioning of the information rather then memorising it verbatim and regurgitating it in an exam (the so called "examination hell"). The idea behind critical thinking is that you always ask questions and dont accept facts at face value.

At least thats what I think it is.

 

[Emoni]

KiraKira I think that is a very good summary of a very complex idea. There is of course more to it, but that sums it up at the core.

I ran into this today... can't help but feel it fits in some abstract way.

 

[tokapi]

Even the owners of America want obedient citizens not a population has critical thinking.

* Comedian George Carlin on " education in America "

 

[Emoni]

One thing I never said was that it wasn't an issue in other countries as well. That includes America.

I simply see a difference in degree, and Japan (as well as other Asian nations) seems to have a much lower focus and emphasis on critical thinking than the United States, at least at a college level and a bit prior to that too.

 

[caster51]

I simply see a difference in degree, and Japan (as well as other Asian nations) seems to have a much lower focus and emphasis on critical thinking than the United States, at least at a college level and a bit prior to that too.

however, it ihas nothing to do with creatinity.
If there are desire and interest in that.., they would have that naturaly.
Japan is an otaku country. it is not means only anime nerd or hentai geek.
i think many various otakus made a creativity that they are interested in..

 

[AroundTheWorld]

Even the owners of America want obedient citizens not a population has critical thinking.
* Comedian George Carlin on " education in America "

R.I.P George Carlin. That man was never afraid to speak his mind... for better or for worst. :3

however, it ihas nothing to do with creatinity.
If there are desire and interest in that.., they would have that naturaly.
Japan is an otaku country. it is not means only anime nerd or hentai geek.
i think many various otakus made a creativity that they are interested in..

Exactly. Japanese do critical thinking, but moreso in their personal time, in personal interests. These same students might not do so well at school, because they're too busy with their personal interests.

 

[Emoni]

however, it ihas nothing to do with creatinity.
If there are desire and interest in that.., they would have that naturaly.
Japan is an otaku country. it is not means only anime nerd or hentai geek.
i think many various otakus made a creativity that they are interested in..

Huh? Didn't I say in my first post that maybe the problem with education isn't the focus on creativity but critical thinking, thereby stating they are different issues? Again, I don't think you quite understand what critical thinking as well as creativity are as concepts or what is being compared. I don't mean to insult you by this, but your posts are consistently in their "own world" talking about a subject we AREN'T talking about. Please, read more carefully.

AroundTheWorld read a lot into your post that I'm not actually seeing myself.

As for critical thinking, I think it is partly a mindset as well. I've learned to be more "critical" thanks to certain college teachers who didn't just have me read a book and write about it, but question who wrote it, why, compare and criticize what was in it to other readings and question the strength of their evidence and presentation. I have never seen in any Japanese class this being done in any manner. This is one example and while I do believe that it occurs in a few classes at least, I don't think it is naturally considered. The same goes with classes in Korea and China at colleges I have witnessed as well as students I have spoken with.

 

[caster51]

As for critical thinking, I think it is partly a mindset as well. I've learned to be more "critical" thanks to certain college teachers who didn't just have me read a book and write about it, but question who wrote it, why, compare and criticize what was in it to other readings and question the strength of their evidence and presentation. I have never seen in any Japanese class this being done in any manner. This is one example and while I do believe that it occurs in a few classes at least, I don't think it is naturally considered. The same goes with classes in Korea and China at colleges I have witnessed as well as students I have spoken with

is it just your experience?
it is so ridiculous.
because I learnt there like you said
graduation thesis was spent for one year like such like method
even in elmentary school has like free research as a task during summer vacation. most time in summer vacation was spent.
after vacation these reserrch is discussed ...

now I knew how superiority emoni and their education were..

 

[Emoni]

is it just your experience?
it is so ridiculous.
because I learnt there like you said
even in elmentary school has like that as free research as a task during summer vacation. most time in summer vacation was spent

Ummm... Huh? ☝

 

[caster51]

Ummm... Huh?

you are so ridiculous....

As for critical thinking, I think it is partly a mindset as well. I've learned to be more "critical" thanks to certain college teachers who didn't just have me read a book and write about it, but question who wrote it, why, compare and criticize what was in it to other readings and question the strength of their evidence and presentation. I have never seen in any Japanese class this being done in any manner. This is one example and while I do believe that it occurs in a few classes at least, I don't think it is naturally considered. The same goes with classes in Korea and China at colleges I have witnessed as well as students I have spoken with

it is a common way in everywhere...
I think you need a critical thinking based on more knowledges about Japanese education at first
did you investigate it? if you didnt it is just your masturbation how you got superiority education.

of course, there is a ploblem in Japanese education

 

[Mars Man]

I am very certain that the process of critical thinking and thought, a matter beyond that of simply being creative, and the matter of actively teaching such and making application of such (by especially 1-12 grades) is in great lack in the Japanese school system. Again, this is a very certain conclusion. (although one may wish to argue just what degree of such would make 'enough,' in order to have a 'lack.')

Even at the university level, in many (notice, not most, even, here) cases, especially within the first two years of classes, we find not much more. Rote memory is largely the process by which much is presented...just remember it, and then pass the test. (and of course be in class, since that often counts too...as per the conveyor belt system of 1-12)

However, we should not attempt to compare between Japan and other social groups/national groups, I'd think, other than to take a position on what would more likely prove, over the long run, to be more beneficial over all in general balance and well-being of a social group's natural position.

Caster51 san, please do be careful so as to present your position without pointing fingers at the poster, per se. (you know what I mean)

 

[caster51]

mars man: ok

I need the certainty investigation at first that the Japanese education is the lack of critical thinking with not based on personal experience.

it needs total premise....

 

[Emoni]

you are so ridiculous....
it is a common way in everywhere...
I think you need a critical thinking based on more knowledges about Japanese education at first
did you investigate it? if you didnt it is just your masturbation how you got superiority education.
of course, there is a ploblem in Japanese education

Considering your rude, insulting, and accusatory behavior, I'm not sure why I, or other posters, continue to respond. Maybe it is just too late for me to rationally decide not to.

Have I investigated it? Yes, I believe I have stated that to some degree numerous times and I simply don't believe you are reading the thread. I've been in classes in Japan, China, and South Korea. These include classes from Elementary School, Junior High, High School, and University level where I was a volunteer, visitor, and student. I've had an interest in education and teaching for a long time as it is my career goal to be a college professor. I've paid very close attention to not just the content, but how it is taught, perceived and studied. Am I running a doctoral research project on Japanese education? No, I'm talking about a subject on JRef's internet forums. However, I have done previous research projects regarding Japanese education, mostly focused on education of the atomic bombings of Japan and university students.

This post isn't some joyful activity of masturbation as you are insultingly stating it to be. If that was the case, JRef wouldn't be a site I'd be looking up.

With that, I'm through with being insulted by you caster and your attempts to derail this thread. I was a fool for responding yet again and probably now as well.


NOW on to the actual topic at hand! The actual purpose of this thread.

In regards to rote memory and critical thinking, I do think there may be an issue of balance. By no means does rote memory not exist in American schooling and education. It's simply required sometimes. However, I do want to state that rote memory is often the first step to a deeper understanding of a subject, not the end. You may memorize math formulas, but those are based on a deeper theory that must be understood. You may memorize the first version of history and historical dates, but that is only the beginning and one often limited version of "so-called" history that must be analyzed and considered afterwards.
For a oversimplified example, of which I'm not expecting much of myself tonight, let me talk about bread.

When you first learn to cook pretty much you look in a cook book, grab the ingredients, and follow the instructions. If you want to become better, you have to start thinking about WHY you use certain ingredients, and compare and contrast to other bread recipes. Later you may find that one tastes better than another type of bread, part of it can be your opinion, but if you truly want to make good bread, to become a master of bread bake'n, then you must dig deep and question each aspect and every ingredient and the effect, even if the previous recipe was created by Wolfgang Puck and he is telling you he'd be insulted if you even CONSIDERED questioning his super bread.

^ It's late, and that is the sort of stuff that comes out. If anyone considers that crazy example masturbation as well, I don't recommend eating the bread.

 

[caster51]

Considering your rude, insulting, and accusatory behavior, I'm not sure why I, or other posters, continue to respond. Maybe it is just too late for me to rationally decide not to

I need your certainty investigation at first that the Japanese education is the lack of critical thinking with not based on personal experience.

it needs total premise or comparison....