Japan's education problems... is it the lack of critical thinking?

[Revenant]

reset: The emphasis here is on 'group harmony', and I've seen students who have had a differing opinion from another student just nod their heads or keep quiet for fear of disrupting the group harmony. Now debate is just one way of testing one's opinions and beliefs, but it has proven quite useful, as a lot of people including myself have changed positions on topics due to more correct information that the other side has brought to the discussion.

And rote learning has it's uses, but that along with the group harmony mindset has put the Japanese at a disadvantage in terms of critical thinking. The scientists and medical researchers do better at critical thinking, but even they avoid debate on hot topics, and it's sort of hard to gain a different perspective when your opinions or beliefs are based solely on what you know, rather than on what everyone brings to the table.

I think there's more involved than Japan's just one country of static people vs the many western countries with a more mobile population, although that has had some influence on advancing the west.

The avoidance of hot topic debate goes beyond just business or work settings.

 

[Glenski]

It is great of Glenski to try to teach a debate form in English. But does the poor debating skill in a foreign language mean the lack of critical thinking?

I believe in my cases, yes.

I have taught (or tried to teach) to high school kids, university students, and adults (Japanese teachers of English, no less, all of whom ASKED for the course, yet couldn't hold an argument to save their souls).

 

[caster51]

I'd say that with the emphasis on getting along here, most people don't challenge each other's opinions and beliefs for fear of disrupting the harmony and stuff. Ask a lot of Japanese about a contraversial topic, a lot will simply say that some people believe this, and others believe that, and that it's a diffcult issue. They don't give their own opinion on that topic.

everbody want to win in an argument as a human desire.
I think it is because there is no profit each other except Specialized field.

Especially,as for the ideology or religion, it becomes a fight.
it is not seen the progress from ancient

What I found since I started debating on the net,

you are right. because the face is not seen..

 

[caster51]

caster: (re: Kyoto Prize winners) Do you think that they arise only from creativity and critical thinking?
me: No, but they wouldn't have won the prize without such attributes.

of course I know.it is natural for most researchers..
What is researcher's difference? because it is the lack of critical thinking?
i dont think so

however, can you take it if there is such attributes...?

caster to emoni: Japanese college is kind of four years vacation except law, science and certain speciality feilds.
me: I used to think that, but I work in a top science university. It's still largely a vacation. Kids sleep in class, and their research is mostly just what the major prof wants, not anything creative or individual. Grads get hired because of ties between advisors and industry, not because of creativity or grades.

I dont konw what you mean by that.
the major prof wants... it means theme was given?
There is not a guarantee that creative or individual do not arise there either.
Actually, it is resultful.

caster: in order to learn critical thinking in university? I dont think so.
I learnt it through that well in the real tangle of youth
day time in university was a sleeping time for me though I could get so many friends and connection as a treasure. which is better?
me: Off-topic response. Besides, how do you learn critical thinking as a youth?

The method of practicing playing soccer might be also so.
The method of taking the high score in the test might be so...
The method of winning the discussion with the friend might be so.
First of all, I thought "waht is human ? if I want to satisfy my life what can I do ?...how does The mechanism of the world move?....so on"

caster: the problem is they dont know the real world
me: Actually, I and social pundits agree, but that still doesn't answer the OP's questions about critical thinking vs..

It rather becomes the evil practice for creativity.
It is easy to lead to dissatisfaction and a complaint...
if i say it concretely It comes from interest and enthusiasm and trial and error...

caster: I am just an invester as self-styled and runing of family business.
it is enogh for me to understand the stock market articles and MLB in English..
as for investing stock , it is easy to learn the critical thinking as usual..
me: If it is that easy, then all investors would be rich.

unfortunately,it is opposite in maket.that is why many ppl try by system trading without critical thinking

caster: if you do business youself, critical thinking is useless at all until getting a success
me: Please explain this more fully. It says you don't need critical thinking until AFTER you are a success, which I disagree with, but I really don't understand you.

It is likely to make it to others' responsibilities...
I mean no one admits my critical thinking until then

so i understand critical thinking is the trial and error of experiment
me: This is the closest you have come to providing your definition of critical thinking, and I think it shows just how strange and different it is from the rest of us (unless you can explain it better). Critical thinking is logic applied to resolving questions and problems, so yes, sometimes it involves experimentation, but you contradict yourself in how you got it (your youth), how important it is (you say it's not important until after one has achieved success), and that for doing your type of business it is easy to learn (a point that the majority of people in your field cannot support).

I mean no one admits my critical thinking until then

me: Ok, that is your opinion, and I would agree that in part it is true. Realize that such statements have been made for thousands of years, though. We are trying to determine whether critical thinking and/or creativity can be taught for the benefit of Japanese people, not how today's youths are rebelling ("classroom chaos" is one example). Please stay on topic.

because School lessons are not interesting...
I think most student know its answer...

 

[caster51]

japan is a buddhist country.
the typical thought is ..." the result and reason(or cause) are aliways linked..
that is, "creativity as the phenomenon doesn't exist...
because it is not the result.
as fot nobel prize..if you can not get 100% score in exam, you whould not have "creativity" as a result.? I thnk there a concrete cause that could not get...
it is a because of the lack of critical thinking ? it is stupid as the reason.

sleeping in the class> it is not interesting> Why isn't it interesting?>>>

 

[Mars Man]

caster51 san, as best as I can conceptualize what you are putting forth, I feel that I must again remind you of the scope of the thread (theme and problem) and that no one is pointing to you personally. Also, it would be good to keep in mind that we are looking at the average setting in the Japanese education system here.

I can tell you for a fact, that a person can get 100%s on exams, and still not be creative nor have much of a handle on critical thinking, therefore test results do not amount to that much of a bearing on the problem at hand--a lack of critical thinking, as opposed to a lack of creativity in the average Japanese education system.

Now regarding that last post, caster51 san, could I ask that you please clarify that a bit more. I'm sorry but I cannot reach a firm proposition being presented there in especially those last lines, and that final question.

Then, please correct me if I am wrong here, but is it that you have been taking the position that the Japanese education system does not lack in critical thinking skills being given greater weight in curriculum?

 

[caster51]

I can tell you for a fact, that a person can get 100%s on exams, and still not be creative nor have much of a handle on critical thinking, therefore test results do not amount to that much of a bearing on the problem at hand--a lack of critical thinking, as opposed to a lack of creativity in the average Japanese education system.

what is it concretly? what result comes out from creativity in the average Japanese education system. lack of nobel prizs?
then i can explain.


creativity and the lack of critical thinking are not connected as a result and cause

Then, please correct me if I am wrong here, but is it that you have been taking the position that the Japanese education system does not lack in critical thinking skills being given greater weight in curriculum

"creativity" has a nothing to do with the lack of critical thinking though i understand its concept

what is a visible phenomenon as the lack of critical thinking skills and creativity"?
what is the cause concretely.? then I can understandit as a real problem

 

[Mars Man]

Thanks for the response, yet let's work here in critical format method.

caster51, it might firstly be good to re-read the following (from my last post on page 2):

Creativity is very much tied in with imagination. Imagination, the greater bulk of the better evidence tells us, is very much tied in with a certain brain state wherein the right hemsphere tends more so to 'dress up' certain picked up and associated left-brain sequences of pure data, and often runs in positive correlation with non-norm, abstract bent brain states--very high degrees of imagination being associate with what would other wise be mental illnesses.

When we talk of critical thinking, therefore, we would be focusing less on imagination (creativity) and more on the good ole left hemisphere matter of sequential data in space/time--ration and all its branches. Therefore critical thinking applying creative conception would prove to better build and organize developed thinking processes than creative conception applying rote data would; if that's worded correctly. It could be alikened, as I see it, to teaching one to fish, to eat, rather than simply giving one a fish to eat.
​

What conclusion do you reach from that?

 

[caster51]

Thanks for the response, yet let's work here in critical format method.
caster51, it might firstly be good to re-read the following (from my last post on page 2):

Creativity is very much tied in with imagination. Imagination, the greater bulk of the better evidence tells us, is very much tied in with a certain brain state wherein the right hemsphere tends more so to 'dress up' certain picked up and associated left-brain sequences of pure data, and often runs in positive correlation with non-norm, abstract bent brain states--very high degrees of imagination being associate with what would other wise be mental illnesses.
When we talk of critical thinking, therefore, we would be focusing less on imagination (creativity) and more on the good ole left hemisphere matter of sequential data in space/time--ration and all its branches. Therefore critical thinking applying creative conception would prove to better build and organize developed thinking processes than creative conception applying rote data would; if that's worded correctly. It could be alikened, as I see it, to teaching one to fish, to eat, rather than simply giving one a fish to eat.
​

What conclusion do you reach from that?

it is good to know that..

We know the advantage of the positive idea and thinking...
but, it is difficult to keep it though A negative idea is easy to come out in mind. I know its subconsciousness goes to the good direction unconsciously. if everbody have this thinking, War might be gone.
how can keep it concretely? A lot of expensive seminars exist for that.

however , it is a nothing to do with concrete cause to solve.

 

[caster51]

as one of my conclusion, if students sleep in the class, pro. should give them a "D" .oops "F"
......it is simple.

japan is a shame culture.
we should use this cultural characteristic. that is, as a possibility of the achievement, creativity and etc, " to do the declaration to others" is needed though there is pressure..

I think "to declare something difficult " to friends ,family and etc is important.
for example, if I declared to get 100% score of english exam in front of classmates, how could i do....?. I do the best as possible as i can ..
japanese language is vagu because The verb comes at the end.
The declaration is easily obscured at end because of pressure.
watashi wa tesuto de 100 ten wo toru tumori desu( I get 100% score)..I think tumori is not needed..
I think english is clear to declare. teacher shoud consider it and make them to declare it though students get so many pressure


i think these causes are more important in educauion for that

 

[tokapi]

The emphasis here is on 'group harmony'

I've seen students who have had a differing opinion from another student just nod their heads or keep quiet for fear of disrupting the group harmony.

Now debate is just one way of testing one's opinions and beliefs, but it has proven quite useful, as a lot of people including myself have changed positions on topics due to more correct information that the other side has brought to the discussion.And rote learning has it's uses, but that along with the group harmony mindset has put the Japanese at a disadvantage in terms of critical thinking.

The avoidance of hot topic debate goes beyond just business or work settings.

Japan's 和 culture of " harmony " came from Prince Shotoku 's Seventeen-Article Constitution ( 十七条憲法 )

* Harmony should be valued ( 以和為貴 ) and quarrels should be avoided.

Shotoku's Seventeen-Article Constitution - Jushichijo Kenpo | SaruDama

Also,Japanese proverb " the nail that stands out will get hammered down " is still very much alive.

Last thought,no doubts that Japanese are far more creative than those 2 other NE Asian nationalities ( surpassed their old cultural-masters ).

 

[Glenski]

caster,
Debating in these forums is anonymous, yes. People don't see your face, nor do they have to respond immediately. However, people still need to present clear, logical arguments (points & counterpoints).

I wrote:
I used to think that, but I work in a top science university. It's still largely a vacation. Kids sleep in class, and their research is mostly just what the major prof wants, not anything creative or individual. Grads get hired because of ties between advisors and industry, not because of creativity or grades.
You replied:
I dont konw what you mean by that.
the major prof wants... it means theme was given?
There is not a guarantee that creative or individual do not arise there either.
Actually, it is resultful.
Students do research that their major professors choose most of the time. It is usually a spinoff of his own work, not something original that the students choose. Hence, not much creativity.

I wrote:
We are trying to determine whether critical thinking and/or creativity can be taught for the benefit of Japanese people, not how today's youths are rebelling ("classroom chaos" is one example).
You replied:
because School lessons are not interesting...
I think most student know its answer...
Since you are Japanese, perhaps that is one answer. However, the lessons are not interesting because of the teaching format, and that is one point Emoni was asking about. Topics may stifle creativity and critical thinking because they are presented in a boring manner.

"creativity" has a nothing to do with the lack of critical thinking though i understand its concept

Yes, people can be very creative without thinking critically. People can also think very critically without being creative. Emoni was asking whether it makes a difference to try teaching students to be creative. What is your answer? I will also ask if you think it is necessary or possible to teach students to think critically. Many researchers say yes on my question, here and in other countries.

as one of my conclusion, if students sleep in the class, pro. should give them a "D" .oops "F"
......it is simple.

japan is a shame culture.
we should use this cultural characteristic.

Well, then, caster, explain something to me. Why do so many students in high school and university sleep through classes, yet the teachers don't flunk them? Instead, the students are (in high school) given make-up tests and outside coaching and more chances to get a passing grade, even though the teachers are the ones to blame for letting the students sleep. Letting them sleep only makes the teachers' work harder, and it doesn't really help the student do what he should have done originally. In university, the situation is a little different, of course, because students can choose to drop a course, but the same situations occur when they stay. That is, teachers let them sleep, let them miss classes (more than the school policy allows), and in the final analysis, teachers pass students. Neither of these situations (high school or university) allows students to develop, learn, or acquire the thinking skills and knowledge they truly need to survive and prosper. What is your opinion of this real happening in your homeland, where shame is supposed to be a way of life?

 

[caster51]

Yes, people can be very without thinking critically. People can also think very critically without being creative. Emoni was asking whether it makes a difference to try teaching students to be creative. What is your answer? I will also ask if you think it is necessary or possible to teach students to think critically. Many researchers say yes on my question, here and in other countries

my answer was " creativity has a nothing to do with critical thinking"

as the logic, techer should lead the student how to do by Deductive reasoning or Inductive reasoning..
however, i think it is not critical thinking

 

[tokapi]

Japan is a shame culture

Huh,I don't see how it is relevant to critical thinking though

 

[caster51]

I don't see how it is relevant to critical thinking though

I mean critical thinking is not the method of concrete reason to solve.

Japan is a shame culture

there is a concrete reason to solve in that.

I mean everthing is connected in human relation.
i want to contribute to someone
I want to win....
I want to be paraised.,,,

if you are alone, what is your purpose to live?
I think students can get purpose ,and use it in that for high possibility using their imagination. if they dont know how to get it, they would ask it voluntary.

I think creativity is based on alot of infomations in the past.
..they have so many informations in their brain like PC otakus or movie otakus. they love to know things that are interested in
they like to criticize to others works because it is not their taste..

how come can they criticize that?
it is not because of critical thinking. it is because of their knowledge and desire that wanted to be admitted
what is creativity? it is their desire and interest to make new one to compare to others.
critical thinking is also same.
It is a desire of wanting someone to admit.
Especially, it might be so for the foreigner because here is Japan and its consciousness is strong..

anyway. creatibity would come from the desire and interest
Japanese education is the lack of giving desire and interest for student.







---------------------------

聞くは一瞬の恥、聞かぬは一生の恥 if they have a purpose

 

[Glenski]

caster,
I don't know about others here, but I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about in the first half of your last post! So, I find it impossible to respond to it. None of it seems to be on target here.

However, then you wrote this:

what is creativity? it is their desire and interest to make new one to compare to others.
critical thinking is also same.
It is a desire of wanting someone to admit.

I disagree. Creativity is not a desire or an interest. It is an ability to "make new one".
Critical thinking is also not a desire. It is an ability to use rational thought processes to solve problems and find answers.




Sigh. Let's go back to page one, post #1, people. Here is the crux of this thread.

For those who have studied in Japan we've seen at the very least major issues with the college system. (snip)

Many of us I assume have seen the specials about Japan trying to teach "creativity" in schools and using more western based teaching methods. Universities such as Waseda have opened up certain departments which are radically different than previous college departments in that they are more interdisciplinary as well as use new teaching methods.

Is it really "creativity" that is a major problem with Japanese education, or even education in Asia in general? I've come to wonder if it isn't creativity, but actually critical thinking skills.

So, caster (and everyone),
Emoni is asking 2 questions...

1) Is creativity a major problem in Japan or with Asian education in general?

2) Is the problem a lack of creativity or a lack of critical thinking skills?

Let's get back on track.

My answers:
1. I can't speak for the rest of Asia, but I think creativity is a problem in Japanese schools, yes.
2. Both.

 

[butakun]

In fact, Glenski, you have not presented any convincing examples of the lack of creativity in Japan's education system so far.

1) Students mostly doing spin-offs of supervising professors work.

Yes true. But that is the case everywhere. Why is that lack of creativity? Engineers work incrementally and you do not have to invent everything from scratch to be creative.

2) Students get jobs through supervisors ties with employers, not based on creativity nor grades.

The first is true, but I doubt the second is.

My bottom line is this. I work with many brilliant people from many places, including those educated in Japan, and I simply do not see any lack of creativity from Japanese bunch. They are indeed just as creative. I know I am benefiting from some of the ideas they came up with.

 

[caster51]

caster,
I don't know about others here, but I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about in the first half of your last post! So, I find it impossible to respond to it. None of it seems to be on target here.

i am trying my creativity. LOL.
"the creatibity comes out from purpose in human relations."
dont you think it is a creativity?
my porpose and your critical thinking are different.
if the critical thinking lead creativity and it is common as you said, it is not a creativity. lol
why was critical thiking is occured?.. becuse you want to be paraised ..you want to win the discussion. you want to be agreed....so on

I disagree. Creativity is not a desire or an interest. It is an ability to "make new one".
Critical thinking is also not a desire. It is an ability to use rational thought processes to solve problems and find answers.

to want to make a new one is from desire and interest...
critical thinking is also the interest and desire
I mean if one critical thinking is over, this critical thinking become a result
new critical thinking is occured bracuse of interest ...

So, caster (and everyone),
Emoni is asking 2 questions...


1) Is creativity a major problem in Japan or with Asian education in general?
it is also western major probrem .. ..i mean everywhere.

2) Is the problem a lack of creativity or a lack of critical thinking skills?
NO..


Let's get back on track.
My answers:
1. I can't speak for the rest of Asia, but I think creativity is a problem in Japanese schools, yes.
2. Both.[/QUOTE]

 

[tokapi]

to want to make a new one is from desire and interest ... critical thinking is also the interest and desire

Do you mean,critical thinking is ineffective if there is no desire to achieve objective goals ?

Software powerhouse Microsoft founder Bill Gates,a college drop-out is now world's richest man ( go figure ☝ ).

Is universally known that NE Asians excel in math exceed the level of overall average Western population.Is it lack of problem-solving skills among school-aged N American & European youngsters in a " critical-thinking driven " educational culture,I wonder ?

 

[caster51]

Do you mean,critical thinking is ineffective if there is no desire to achieve objective goals ?

it is just critical thinking in you mind without action.
it will never be a creativity
if you speak your ctiyical thinking to others, you are interested in.
that is why i said " Declaration" to drive to corner is needed for ppl who is not interested in

 

[Glenski]

butakun,
This is not my thread, so please direct your inquiries at Emoni. I just responded with what I have learned in the last 20 years (10 of which have been spent in Japan).

1) Students mostly doing spin-offs of supervising professors work.

Yes true. But that is the case everywhere. Why is that lack of creativity? Engineers work incrementally and you do not have to invent everything from scratch to be creative.

The spinoffs I refer to are far more prevalent here than where I come from. That's all I can tell you. Students are more drones than original thinkers in the science labs. As for lack of creativity, please visit my writing classes.

2) Students get jobs through supervisors ties with employers, not based on creativity nor grades.

The first is true, but I doubt the second is.

Then you don't know that much about the Japanese system. No offense. Grades are unimportant here for the most part. It's the name of the university you graduated from, and the supervisor. Companies want blank slates they can mold. Pretty common knowledge that I'm surprised you haven't heard of.

My bottom line is this. I work with many brilliant people from many places, including those educated in Japan, and I simply do not see any lack of creativity from Japanese bunch. They are indeed just as creative. I know I am benefiting from some of the ideas they came up with.

Ok, now we're talking anecdotes. Where do you work (country and field)? How were those Japanese educated? How long have they been in your country? I really don't want to respond further without knowing more background.

 

[Glenski]

Is universally known that NE Asians excel in math exceed the level of overall average Western population.Is it lack of problem-solving skills among school-aged N American & European youngsters in a " critical-thinking driven " educational culture,I wonder ?

They know the formulas and equations, but I believe they fall far short when faced with story-problems where they have to apply them. I read that somewhere.

Besides, what actual grades are you referring to? Do you know about the horrible grade inflation (read: adjustment) in high school and university here?
Grading System at many/most HS

5 = 80-100%
4 = 60-79%
3 = 45-59%
2 = 30-44%
1 = 0-29%
(You still pass with a 2.)

Moreover, there is a quota system in many/most schools.
15% are 5
25% are 4
40% are 3
20% are 2
0% are 1
(In reality, a few rare students get 1s, but when the grades don't come close to this quota system, teachers are told to adjust the scores of all students so that it will. Been there. Done that.)

 

[tokapi]

Students are more drones than original thinkers in the science labs. As for lack of creativity, please visit my writing classes.

I believe a good percentage of Japanese in some specific fields do have practical-creativity & applied innovativeness,maybe not among average population ( same for other nations or cultures in this world,don't you think ? ).


Are they known ( or proven ) to have ingenuity for originality ( culturally & scientifically ) :?

 

[iwuvvleskaylee]

I am no expert on the education system in Japan, and have never actually seen it. But, based on what i'm told about it, i feel that perhaps the problem with Japan's education system is that it's too much like America's... And Britain's... And France's... We notice that the problem with all the education systems is that students usually end up sleeping, having no interest in the class (despite interest in the subject itself), and so forth. We often try to make projects to make things more entertaining (in america) and i assume Japan is probably the same. We never find the solution, because we're looking in the wrong place.

Has it occured to anyone that perhaps the whole concept of forcing an idea into some one's head just doesn't work? Some one would much rather decide if a painting is beautiful based on their own opinion than being told that it's beautiful. Students are sitting and listening to teachers speak, then go home with questions about what was spoken about. I am a programmer, but i find classes outside of my area being difficult to stay awake in. There's no creativity encouraged anywhere. Instead of being given a situation where one would want to store a number in a variable then taught what a variable is, we are taught what a variable is. To top it off, even that's watered down. In history, which should be interesting, we're told what happened. No one botheres to speculate why something happens. Is it really a puzzle that students are inclined to sleep after getting plenty of it? We need to be proposed a problem before we can be interested enough to hear an answer. I have an article by a 7th grade math teacher explaining the problem with math class. I have found that it can easily be elaborated on to explain the problems with many classes in america. Not to mention, for 12 years, the school systems have been forcing information down the throat the exact same way... If the student doesn't want to learn a topic, the mind will gain an adaption to reject the method of teaching, like an animal in nature learns to adapt to fill a basic need.

I know the above said pertained alot to america, but from what i'm told, Japanese is just like american education with an emphasis on groups instead of individuals. I believe the solution lies within a view broader than just Japan... It's easy to target one country and find evidence for that one country's lack of ability in something is due to the education. But I, personally, have found that people all over the world, no matter what country you are from, are pretty stupid for well educated individuals. I don't mean to insult anyone here, but i'm just trying to point out the real problem...

 

[anomouse]

I know the above said pertained alot to america, but from what i'm told, Japanese is just like american education with an emphasis on groups instead of individuals. I believe the solution lies within a view broader than just Japan... It's easy to target one country and find evidence for that one country's lack of ability in something is due to the education. But I, personally, have found that people all over the world, no matter what country you are from, are pretty stupid for well educated individuals. I don't mean to insult anyone here, but i'm just trying to point out the real problem...

True.
I see lack of creativity and critical thinking in about 77 percent of the posts on this exact thread. Haha, no offence.