To All those Japanese people reading this site...ﾅ津??堙打ｽﾃ娯?堙

[FrustratedDave]

Firstly I am what Japanese would call a foriegner by appearence, or in other words I am European in decent.

Why is it that the majority of you insist on believing that when addressing a foreigner that it is ok to "呼び捨て" "yobisute"? (and for those reading this thread, fail to use "san" a Mr or Mrs equivalent). This just baffles me and I will explain why I think so.

I have lived here for well over ten years now and eight of those years have been in a Japanese only working enviroment. But it does not matter as to what position I hold, generaly speaking everyone calls me by my first name. On the other hand staff that have just been employed by the company usually afford at least a "くん" or a "ちゃん", but no, not me, all I get is David! This is not an isolated incident, people who I meet for the first time soon revert from using "さん" to just my name very quickly. Or even people who are younger than me ,which a deffinate no no.

Why do you most of you feel that we as foreigners don't deserve this social respect? I can also see the double standard happening right in front of my face when I have a "業者さん" "wholesaler" addressing me with "呼び捨て" and one of my "部下" "subordinates" with "さん" and even though I am clearly #1, a customer to the person speaking and #2 I am above the person sitting right beside me in regards to the company ,some people still insist on doing this.

I want to know the reason for so many Japanese doing this?

 

[nice gaijin]

My theory is it's the belief that foreigners, (assuming they are) coming from a culture that does not use such honorifics and first names are used even in business situations, are more comfortable being addressed with yobisute. I wouldn't assume that the intention is to offend, but it's just another form of segregation in terms of the way foreigners are "handled" in Japan.

The tough part here is that if this bothers you, how to let other people know. Do you risk being so forward as to demand the respect you feel is being forgotten? Is there a tactful way to do this? Perhaps Richard Chamberlain can shed some light on this subject (jump to 3:10).

 

[epigene]

I don't know why, but someone near you may have spread rumor that you don't want to be called David-san?

Personally, I've never called anybody without "-san" unless they are close friends and family. Maybe it's just my area...

Oh, yes, and I've noticed I don't use "-san" with many members I'm familiar with here at JREF.

 

[FrustratedDave]

My theory is it's the belief that foreigners, (assuming they are) coming from a culture that does not use such honorifics and first names are used even in business situations, are more comfortable being addressed with yobisute. I wouldn't assume that the intention is to offend, but it's just another form of segregation in terms of the way foreigners are "handled" in Japan.

The tough part here is that if this bothers you, how to let other people know. Do you risk being so forward as to demand the respect you feel is being forgotten? Is there a tactful way to do this? Perhaps Richard Chamberlain can shed some light on this subject (jump to 3:10).

If it were only on a personal level I would not care, but when it comes to bussiness people need to act a certain way for things to run smoothly. As you may know, in Japanese especially, the way someone address someone can help determine for use of a better word "rank", if this is not followed all sorts of problems begin to arise as I have seen. It is then hard to be taken seriously by staff when this yobisute occurs.

Anyway I know it is another form of segregation and there is not much I can do except train my staff to act accordingly.

I don't know why, but someone near you may have spread rumor that you don't want to be called David-san?
Personally, I've never called anybody without "-san" unless they are close friends and family. Maybe it's just my area...
Oh, yes, and I've noticed I don't use "-san" with many members I'm familiar with here at JREF.

No, that is not the case, b/c new people I meet for the first time seem to follow this trend.

I just want to know why the majority of Japanese do this, if I can find this out I can deal with it with at least some understanding. I am sick of telling staff how to use Keigo to customers when it dose not register that they are insulting my position( Not me personaly ).

 

[undrentide]

In my office, there are a few employees who are from other countries and at least when we are talking in Japanese, everyone address them with -san, like 窶婆窶堋ｳ窶堙ｱ or ﾆ辰ﾆ停?敞叩ﾆ停?懌?堋ｳ窶堙ｱ, for example.
I'm also following this "custom", while if we are discussing with customers from other countries in English and those colleagues are at the meeting, I'd address them without -san, i.e. ﾅ津??堙打ｽﾃ娯?堙 because it sounds more natural in English language.
I think in my case people tend to follow what is most common in each language.

As to your case, personally I think it is quite rude to call you without -san when talking in Japanese and if you are in Japan, but my assumption is (if there's no negative intention among your colleagues), they do not really know what they are expected to do when having a "foreigner" as their working place and how to address the person, and find someone (most likely their boss) is addressing you without -san, they are just following this "example".

Not that I think it is OK for the people in your work place to call you without -san, of course. They should consider what they're doing instead of blindly (and without thiking) mimic someone superior to them.

 

[kusoshine]

Hope this helps!!

Foreigners and Japanese customs

15:29 UTC » Japanese Culture

A lot of people ask me about Japanese customs. They learn the formal way to hand business cards, they bow deeply when they meet Japanese and they call me "Ito-san." Stop that. It's silly. To some Japanese, the awkward foreigners trying to please their hosts by acting Japanese may look cute, but more likely than not, you'll get a A for effort but you'll be forever the silly foreigner in their minds. It's only the extremely intolerant xenophobe who would really want a foreigner to really act Japanese and you don't want to be hanging out with those anyway. Keep an eye out for indicators of discomfort but bring the flair of your own culture with you.

Rather than trying to act Japanese, I suggest that people visiting Japan be sensitive and aware of the nuances in the interactions. It is more about timing, loudness, space and smiles than it is about how your hold your business card or calling people "Ito-san." When in doubt, shut up and listen. When smiled at, smile back. If you're freaking someone out, back off instead of continuing your interrogation. All of which I believe is not unique to being a foreigner in Japan. The more important Japan specific social behaviors involve cleanliness like taking off your shoes in homes and washing your body before and not taking your towel when entering the bath and not being stinky.

Caveat: If you're meeting someone for the first time, in a very formal setting, and you only have one shot, doing the step-by-step from the "How to Impress Japanese" book is probably a good idea. My comments above apply mostly to normal social situations.

UPDATE: I think many people were offended by this post. ;-) Please read the comments for an interesting discussion.

ttp://joi.ito.com/archives/2004/04/03/foreigners_and_japanese_customs.html

 

[kameron]

The above post pissed me off at first. But he's actually got a good point.

 

[FrustratedDave]

Foreigners and Japanese customs

15:29 UTC » Japanese Culture

A lot of people ask me about Japanese customs. They learn the formal way to hand business cards, they bow deeply when they meet Japanese and they call me "Ito-san." Stop that. It's silly. To some Japanese, the awkward foreigners trying to please their hosts by acting Japanese may look cute, but more likely than not, you'll get a A for effort but you'll be forever the silly foreigner in their minds. It's only the extremely intolerant xenophobe who would really want a foreigner to really act Japanese and you don't want to be hanging out with those anyway. Keep an eye out for indicators of discomfort but bring the flair of your own culture with you.

Rather than trying to act Japanese, I suggest that people visiting Japan be sensitive and aware of the nuances in the interactions. It is more about timing, loudness, space and smiles than it is about how your hold your business card or calling people "Ito-san." When in doubt, shut up and listen. When smiled at, smile back. If you're freaking someone out, back off instead of continuing your interrogation. All of which I believe is not unique to being a foreigner in Japan. The more important Japan specific social behaviors involve cleanliness like taking off your shoes in homes and washing your body before and not taking your towel when entering the bath and not being stinky.

Caveat: If you're meeting someone for the first time, in a very formal setting, and you only have one shot, doing the step-by-step from the "How to Impress Japanese" book is probably a good idea. My comments above apply mostly to normal social situations.

UPDATE: I think many people were offended by this post. Please read the comments for an interesting discussion.

This is fine for people visting Japan, but in real everyday situations and you are fluent in Japanese, people expect you to act a certain way. And to go even further, if you are fluent to the point of being close to a native speaker you absolutely cannot get away with what is considered bad business manner as you are expected to know based on your percieved experience.

Remember there are different rules for foriegners living here permanently.

 

[FrustratedDave]

In my office, there are a few employees who are from other countries and at least when we are talking in Japanese, everyone address them with -san, like 窶婆窶堋ｳ窶堙ｱ or ﾆ辰ﾆ停?敞叩ﾆ停?懌?堋ｳ窶堙ｱ, for example.
I'm also following this "custom", while if we are discussing with customers from other countries in English and those colleagues are at the meeting, I'd address them without -san, i.e. ﾅ津??堙打ｽﾃ娯?堙 because it sounds more natural in English language.
I think in my case people tend to follow what is most common in each language.

As to your case, personally I think it is quite rude to call you without -san when talking in Japanese and if you are in Japan, but my assumption is (if there's no negative intention among your colleagues), they do not really know what they are expected to do when having a "foreigner" as their working place and how to address the person, and find someone (most likely their boss) is addressing you without -san, they are just following this "example".

Not that I think it is OK for the people in your work place to call you without -san, of course. They should consider what they're doing instead of blindly (and without thiking) mimic someone superior to them.

Undrentide, I don't think there is any bad intentions here either, people probably don't realize what they are doing or how it affects my position. It may just be something that I have to deal with on my own.

And the reason for this thread was to pick the brains of some you dealing with foriegners in the work place.

 

[Mike Cash]

I blame decades of cheerful gaijin dancing bear idiots on NHK English teaching programs (both radio and television). And to an extent the countless thousands of cheerful gaijin dancing bears in Eikaiwa schools.

Seriously.

And you always have the option of standing up for yourself and changing folks one at a time. If it bugs you, in a matter-of-fact way point it out. I once knew an Iranian man who refused to acknowledge he had even been spoken to unless there was something tacked onto the end of his name. It worked wonderfully for him.

Pointing out a lack of the bare-bones basics of manners works pretty well. Some of the drivers at work have in the past on occasion complained that when they enter the office to turn in their paperwork at the end of the day the 挨拶 from the office staff is lacking or entirely absent. I always suggest that they do what I do in such cases, which is not to fume and then b*tch about it weeks later at the monthly meeting...what I do is pipe up loud and clear in a voice that reverberates through the whole place 挨拶お願いします！ You hear about this being a "shame" culture....so use the shame as a tool. What the heck else is it there for, after all?

 

[nanook]

I would talk to someone, who is about the same rank as you (and not a jerk) in a quiet moment. You could express your concern and be "surprised" about the "general lack of manners" in the office. Best wait, until a mistake of manners happens, which does not concern you personally. So you can use that as an example and add your own case as an attachment to it.

This gives the person you spoke to a chance to walk around and alert the rest of the crew quietly about what you said. From then on, they know, that it is wrong, what they do and they know, that you know and care. This might be enough to change the situation.

Or else, use Mike Cash's method, it is about the same, just louder

 

[FrustratedDave]

I blame decades of cheerful gaijin dancing bear idiots on NHK English teaching programs (both radio and television). And to an extent the countless thousands of cheerful gaijin dancing bears in Eikaiwa schools.

Seriously.

And you always have the option of standing up for yourself and changing folks one at a time. If it bugs you, in a matter-of-fact way point it out. I once knew an Iranian man who refused to acknowledge he had even been spoken to unless there was something tacked onto the end of his name. It worked wonderfully for him.

Pointing out a lack of the bare-bones basics of manners works pretty well. Some of the drivers at work have in the past on occasion complained that when they enter the office to turn in their paperwork at the end of the day the ﾋ?･ﾅｽA from the office staff is lacking or entirely absent. I always suggest that they do what I do in such cases, which is not to fume and then b*tch about it weeks later at the monthly meeting...what I do is pipe up loud and clear in a voice that reverberates through the whole place ﾋ?･ﾅｽA窶堋ｨﾅ?ﾃｨ窶堋｢窶堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ！ You hear about this being a "shame" culture....so use the shame as a tool. What the heck else is it there for, after all?

Hey Mike, I know what you mean.

Maybe I have lost a lot of how I should go about addressing a situation, or inother words I am doing the same as most Japanese and bitching about it on the inside with that allways unaffected exterior. From the moment I got I have had it hammered into me not to confront people, where as at home I would be one of the first to jump into an argument or fight. It is amazing how your enviroment can change you.

I would talk to someone, who is about the same rank as you (and not a jerk) in a quiet moment. You could express your concern and be "surprised" about the "general lack of manners" in the office. Best wait, until a mistake of manners happens, which does not concern you personally. So you can use that as an example and add your own case as an attachment to it.
This gives the person you spoke to a chance to walk around and alert the rest of the crew quietly about what you said. From then on, they know, that it is wrong, what they do and they know, that you know and care. This might be enough to change the situation.
Or else, use Mike Cash's method, it is about the same, just louder

Pretty hard to get someone as the same rank when I am at the top but I supposse I could get someone from our parent company, but maybe your and Mikes advise is correct. If I am boss then I have a duty to educate the staff on this b/c it ultimately reflects on me. Thanks guys

 

[Chidoriashi]

Well Dave if you are the boss, then of course you have the authority to demand some respect.
On the other hand, I think you also know by now, having been here for ten years, that, especially if you look foreign, you will never be Japanese and always be treated differently. It is just something that people who live here a long time or permanently have to put up with. Ive only been here about 4 years and some days are better than others, but it is just part of life here. I do understand your rant though.

 

[Elizabeth]

I have lived here for well over ten years now and eight of those years have been in a Japanese only working enviroment. But it does not matter as to what position I hold, generaly speaking everyone calls me by my first name. On the other hand staff that have just been employed by the company usually afford at least a "くん" or a "ちゃん", but no, not me, all I get is David! This is not an isolated incident, people who I meet for the first time soon revert from using "さん" to just my name very quickly. Or even people who are younger than me ,which a deffinate no no.

I've never heard of using first names anyway. Isn't the protocol normally and properly Surname ((alone / (+Attached honorific)) (苗字＋「さん」か「くん」 vs. 苗字を呼び捨ても有です？？ What could cause such a breathtaking collective loss of composure directed at you in particular in all your capacities is truly mysterious. Well, I suppose not knowing or blindly being fed the ignorance of others is one thing.

But starting with さん and becoming a "good friend" very quickly is quite extraordinary. The next time that happens some clues you may want to consider would be personality or mangagement style signals that may be "leaking out" uncontrolled to your staff or clients who are being inexcusably insubordinate. Because they may be being led to expect by something in your body language, the way you present yourself, style of leadership etc a different kind of boss or colleague than the average native CEO. Someone softer perhaps, more personable and less mentally or emotionally rigid ???

Not that I'm blaming you in any sense, just trying to find some pattern in a very odd set of circumstances. It's going to be challanging, but possible , to change if you are doing something to make them take you lightly or with too little authoritarian instincts.

 

[FrustratedDave]

I've never heard of using first names anyway. Isn't the protocol normally and properly Surname ((alone / (+Attached honorific)) (窶｢cﾅｽﾅ｡ﾂ＋ﾂ「窶堋ｳ窶堙ｱﾂ」窶堋ｩﾂ「窶堋ｭ窶堙ｱﾂ」 vs. 窶｢cﾅｽﾅ｡窶堙ｰﾅ津??堙打ｽﾃ娯?堙??堙?窶猫窶堙??堋ｷﾂ？ﾂ？ What could cause such a breathtaking collective loss of composure directed at you in particular in all your capacities is truly mysterious. Well, I suppose not knowing or blindly being fed the ignorance of others is one thing.

But starting with 窶堋ｳ窶堙ｱ and becoming a "good friend" very quickly is quite extraordinary. So when that happens again one thing you may want to consider are personality or mangagement style signals that may be "leaking out" uncontrolled to your staff that they can expect a different kind of boss or colleague than your average native. Someone softer perhaps, more personable and less mentally rigid ???

Not that I'm blaming you in any sense, just trying to find some pattern in a very odd set of circumstances. It's going to be challanging, but possible , to change if it is caused by being taken too lightly or with too little authoritarian instincts.

First of all, I have to ask where you are drawing your experience from? What I mean is, is it ﾅ?ﾃ問?愬陳（kantou) or ﾅ?ﾃ鳴青ｼ (Kansai)? Why I ask is b/c down here in the ﾅ?ﾃ鳴青ｼ region it is a whole different ball game. Being polite is not one of the strenghts of the kansai region. Why I say this is b/c 100%, thats right 100% of the wholesalers that I deal with that are from the Kantou area address me as 窶堋ｳ窶堙ｱ orﾂ 窶罵, but not down here.

And where I live the dialect used is pretty harsh. I went to Tokyo the other day and spoke as I normally would at a resturant and waiter kept appologising to me when I asked him something instead of just answering the question. Why he did this was b/c he thought I was getting mad at him by the way I was speaking ( I ended up asking him why he thought I was upset at him due to him clearly showing the fact that he was a little shaken) I ended up appologising to him for the fact that I can't speak hyoujyunngo and he understood which was a releif to me).

Anyway, just thought I should point that out to you. Any comments will be welcomed.

 

[Taiko666]

In my company, さん is used in all 'formal' e-mails (eg from the personnel dept) and between people who don't know each other very well. But when people become aquainted, the Japanese are still referred to using さん while the foreigners are referred to by their first names. I too wondered why this was. My own policy is to call the Japanese exclusively by the first names as soon as I get to know them.

As for Mike's post: I'm often annoyed by surly bank security guards who say いらっしゃいませ to all Japanese customers but just ignore, or even scowl at, me. I usually ask them why they haven't greeted me. This also happened when a group of Japanese and I were waiting at 6am for a Shinkansen station to open. When the shutters went up, the staff said a cheery おはようごじます to everyone except me. I then stopped walking, looked straight at one of them and said おはようごじます, and was greeted by an avalanche of embarrassed responses.

Would it be appropriate to use 挨拶お願いします in these cases?

 

[Mike Cash]

As for Mike's post: I'm often annoyed by surly bank security guards who sayﾂ 窶堋｢窶堙ｧ窶堙≫?堋ｵ窶堙｡窶堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｹﾂ to all Japanese customers but just ignore, or even scowl at, me. I usually ask them why they haven't greeted me. This also happened when a group of Japanese and I were waiting at 6am for a Shinkansen station to open. When the shutters went up, the staff said a cheery 窶堋ｨ窶堙坂?堙ｦ窶堋､窶堋ｲ窶堋ｶ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ to everyone except me. I then stopped walking, looked straight at one of them and said 窶堋ｨ窶堙坂?堙ｦ窶堋､窶堋ｲ窶堋ｶ窶堙懌?堋ｷ, and was greeted by an avalanche of embarrassed responses.
Would it be appropriate to use ﾋ?･ﾅｽA窶堋ｨﾅ?ﾃｨ窶堋｢窶堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋ｷ in these cases?

窶ｰ'窶堋ｾ窶堋ｯ窶堙架?･ﾅｽA窶堋ｵ窶堙遺?堋｢窶堙娯?堙俄?堙遺?堙ｱ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｭ窶堋ｯ窶堋ｪ窶堋?窶堙ｩﾂ？

or

ﾋ?･ﾅｽA窶堙坂?伉ｫ窶堙ｨ窶堙遺?堋｢窶堋ｶ窶堙｡窶堙遺?堋｢ﾂ？

or

ﾋ?･ﾅｽA窶堋ｮ窶堙ｧ窶堋｢窶堋ｷ窶堙ｨ窶堙｡窶堋｢窶堋｢窶堙娯?堙?....

or

窶ｰﾃ､窶堋ｪﾂ坂?倪?愿ｺ窶怒窶堙??堙才?･ﾅｽA窶堋ｪ窶佚･ﾂ静倪?堙??堋ｷ窶堋ｪﾂ。

Or any other such thing that comes to mind. Call people out on it. I've often had people tell me I can't fix the whole country. To which I usually reply that I'll settle for fixing people one at a time as I get to them.

I once entered a building down at Shinagawa Wharf to inquire from the ﾅ?ﾃ??板敖人if there was a public restroom in the area. Before I had hardly began to speak he went about half rabid on me, with some speech but mostly the gestures reserved for retarded gaijins. (This is near the main Immigration office and I suppose he gets some folks wandering in every now and then, but there was no need to be an ***). I went to convenience store next door and on the way out bought a can of hot coffee, which I took over and gave to him, saying ﾂ「窶堋ｱ窶堙ｪ窶堙??氾｢窶堋ｽ窶堋｢ﾂ心窶堙ｰ窶冏窶堙溪?堙??堋ｨ窶堋ｯﾂ」.

And in response to Elizabeth's post.....It is common in Japan for people to treat us like rock stars. Meaning that we all only have one name. And it is without 窶堋ｳ窶堙ｱ more often than with.

 

[orochi]

>I went to convenience store next door and on the way out bought a can of hot
> coffee, which I took over and gave to him, saying 「これで冷たい心を暖めておけ」.

That's a great story!
What did he say after that?

 

[Mike Cash]

I figured it would have the greatest effect if I just left him there feeling like a total ***, so I just said my bit, turned, and left.

I should clarify that his half-rabid reaction was in connection with his attempt to shoo me out of his building as rapidly and rudely as if he thought I were there to spread the bubonic plague.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

I like Mike's approach to this issue.

I personally don't have this problem of yobisute very much, except with people who are clearly my superiors, but if I did, I think I would like to try Mike's approach to it. The best way to approach it is not to fume and get angry, but to catch people in the terms of their culture.

I remember once a collegue of mine (Japanese. from Osaka, btw) who was referred to by a subordinate with yobisute. His response was,

窶堋?窶堙ｨ窶堋ｲ窶堙??堋､ﾂ。ﾅ津??堙打ｽﾃ娯?堙??堋ｵ窶堙??堋ｭ窶堙ｪ窶堙?。

with a tone of voice and expression on his face that clearly showed he was being sarcastic.

 

[Elizabeth]

I like Mike's approach to this issue.
I personally don't have this problem of yobisute very much, except with people who are clearly my superiors, but if I did, I think I would like to try Mike's approach to it. The best way to approach it is not to fume and get angry, but to catch people in the terms of their culture.
I remember once a collegue of mine (Japanese. from Osaka, btw) who was referred to by a subordinate with yobisute. His response was,
窶堋?窶堙ｨ窶堋ｲ窶堙??堋､ﾂ。ﾅ津??堙打ｽﾃ娯?堙??堋ｵ窶堙??堋ｭ窶堙ｪ窶堙?。
with a tone of voice and expression on his face that clearly showed he was being sarcastic.

It isn't even completely necessary to put anyone on the spot. Just make a plea for the obvious. Something like :

窶堋ｱ窶堋ｱ窶堙坂?愿ｺ窶怒窶堋ｾ窶堋ｵﾂ、窶堋ｱ窶堙ｪ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧ窶堙才?ｪ窶ｰﾅｾﾂ湘｣ﾅｽi窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙??ｰﾂｽﾂ々窶堙?津??堙ｱ窶堙??梅窶堋ｵ窶堋｢ﾂ。ﾂ」

 

[Rioneru]

Geez, apparently there really is a lot I have to learn about subtle discrimination and nuances in Japan. I'm sure I'll become more aware once I actually go, but I was wondering something. Demanding the just dues of respectful terms is one thing, but like here in America, there are some who prefer being addressed casually. I've been told many times before, "Don't call me sir" or "Don't call me ma'am". Often it makes people feel old, is what I've been told.

Now, I know this is drastically different than the cultural norm in Japan, but perhaps many Japanese have adapted this approach with foreigners and I think when they are openly (but politely) called out on it, they will likely correct themselves. Now, if they're serving that oh-so-common "kill you with kindness" rudeness, should we really be striving to gain respect/honorific terms from them? I think the progress lies in those following by bad example/assumption and are open to change.

 

[FrustratedDave]

It isn't even completely necessary to put anyone on the spot. Just make a plea for the obvious. Something like :
窶堋ｱ窶堋ｱ窶堙坂?愿ｺ窶怒窶堋ｾ窶堋ｵﾂ、窶堋ｱ窶堙ｪ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧ窶堙才?ｪ窶ｰﾅｾﾂ湘｣ﾅｽi窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙??ｰﾂｽﾂ々窶堙?津??堙ｱ窶堙??梅窶堋ｵ窶堋｢ﾂ。ﾂ」

Thanks Elizabeth, mike, Mikawa and others. I do find that if you are going to be working with your colleges day to day and closely that saying these things yourself causes damage to a good relationship (something that I have done in the past, it was never the same after that), sometimes which has taken years to build. Like I said before, noone is doing this on purpose and I do have someone that is gradually informing others of what they are doing. I did however want some of the other Japanese on here maybe give a few reasons for this.

 

[Mike Cash]

The best approach may be to tell individuals, "Look, I don't mind if you do 呼び捨て when it's just the two of us, but in front of others I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't do that."

It points out the problem, makes the other person feel special in being given a kinda-sorta-sometimes special dispensation, and accomplishes the goal.

 

[FrustratedDave]

The best approach may be to tell individuals, "Look, I don't mind if you do ﾅ津??堙打ｽﾃ娯?堙 when it's just the two of us, but in front of others I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't do that."

It points out the problem, makes the other person feel special in being given a kinda-sorta-sometimes special dispensation, and accomplishes the goal.

I am sort of thinking along these lines too, thanks Mike.