Friends w/ Benefits

[The-Beautiful-Roses]

In my last thread Ive mentioned a guy named Blue. His real name is Marc. For a while ive thought about feeling good with him and would it be better to love him just because he makes me feel good or love him just to love. Neither of them are just.

I talked to him last night on the phone; our first real conversation since after I broke up with him. He said I never gave him a chance. One detail I think all you should know.. He lives a good hour away from me and its hard for us to see eachother. If it matters to you im almost 17 and he's almost 20. I don't love him, and I doubt he loves me. We've only known eachother since november '06 and have the occasional conversation/feel good visits.

On with my explanation.. I talked to him a few hours last night. He admitted what he did at the party with tiffany. ((He got drunk and they had sex.))Previous to this, I just thought the two made out. =/ Is it wrong to feel happy he told me the truth as oppose to the situation? Amazing I don't feel emotionally attached to him.

We talked about us. I told him I don't really want to be in a relationship or really friends either. He didn't understand what I was saying so I further explained that I would like to be with him only in lust and no emotional attachment. He thought the idea a good one. Ive thought long and hard who I wanted to give my virginity to, and decided not to give it to anyone that would possibly twist my heart and drain the happiness from it. A friend of mine gave his virginity to a girl and got so mentally attached to her, he couldn't get over her. They broke up and basically their relationship is ruined. I don't want that.

Marc and I are now friends with benefits. He said the only condition was that if im having sex with say, a boyfriend-- well here is what he said, "i don't want another man touching my domain...
i would expect you to feel the same" I asked, what if after we had sex, if him and I were to get attached. He basically said whatever happens, happens.

Even if he gets a gf or i get a bf it will carry on in the relationship till he or i decides to have sex with our significant other.Is that a bit messed up? Part of me says yeah and the other says no.

 

[Mars Man]

I can understand much of what you are going through. I'd like to give a real proper answer...one that takes in as many of the details and twists and turns of nature as it allows us to know of it, regardless of ethical constructs forced by social groups, as possible. Unfortunately I do not have the time here and now, nor do I feel that much would become of it anyway.

You are yet young. You are yet growing, learning and experiencing many things. At the point and stage in life that you are at, it is only natural--like at all points and stages in life--to more easily see things in a kind of 'absolute' mode. I mean things concerning your worldview. Many, some, or most of these can change over time. . . and any change would counter your present concepts to be in error.

The female general (talking averages here) much more so than not, tends to lean towards commitment, whereas the male does not. I would not see how anyone could say that your desire to have sex with a person who would be commited to you were a false concept--it's natures role. At the same time, it would be equally wrong to expect that a male would be of the same mental (whole brain) fabric. So, it is not wise to not force your worldview into a setting that does not allow for a bonded partner (male in your case) to leave you for another--it happens all the time, and make much of our music and art.

Sex is not as sacred an act as much of social construct has presented it to be. It is special in a lot of ways, but in biological functions, only of a higher element than others in that is the prime means of propogation of any species. Taking care not to attach a greater emotional element than pure nature basically gives to being 'virgin' should be kept in mind to help avoid the downside of losing out in a 'love coctail' high--to make the 'cold turkey'-like reactions of withdrawal easier, mentally. (you'd be prepared for it.)

The contract which you are making with Blue is an expression of an element of the total 'love' package...its eros...the love of the attractive-by-disposition sexual element of a being. Nothing wrong with that. Just keep in mind that it can develop into something similar to the 'habit' stage--much like the later stage of a pair-bonded couple after the 'cocktail'b begins to wear off. It may bring some downside effects too.

If you go for sexual (penetrative) experience in either way, make sure its 'safe'--here I'm focusing on non-mental health, and unwanted/ill prepared pregnancy. Boy...I said enough though didn't I...anyway, there's a whole lot behind what has been said here...further research, on your own, in that area may be good !! That's what Ma Cheri has done...

 

[The-Beautiful-Roses]

Mars Man: Thankyou for such a wise reply. Im going to have to read, reread, and read again what you have said with much thought. I heart you!!


What research has Ma Cheri done?

 

[nice gaijin]

sex makes everything more complicated, and emotional attachments are usually unbalanced in such situations. Good luck.

 

[The-Beautiful-Roses]

Oh gawd that just made me nervous sorta.

 

[nice gaijin]

live your life how you want. You shouldn't fear sex, but don't expect things to stay simple forever.

 

[The-Beautiful-Roses]

Are you speaking from experiance? If so, id like to hear about it, if you don't mind telling.

 

[Kinsao]

When you have sex with someone, if it's on quite a regular basis, even if it's just because it physically feels good and neither of you feel a particular emotional attachment to one another, it's quite likely that eventually one of you will start to feel a kind of emotional attachment, since it's a very close and intimate thing. Sure, you can look at it in the pragmatic way, in which it's 'only' biological, a function for reproduction. So is it also so 'special'? I think so... because although human beings are animals, we are not only animals, right? (Not to say animals don't have emotions... but that's a whole different argument... I'm just trying - badly! - to illustrate a point.) Humans throughout thousands of years have regarded sex as something that's important/significant between two people in addition to reproductive function. It seems to be a natural instinct that way. I don't mean necessarily for monogamy or long-term commitment, but a feeling that there is some kind of emotional attachment around sex. Obviously in the cases of one-night-stands it isn't, but thinking of a longer-term/regular 'relationship' where sex is a part of that, I think it's highly likely that one of you would develop an attachment of some sort. I mean, you also know a bit about each other (personalities and such) outside of the bedroom, too, yes? And although you don't love each other, you get on alright, you like each other in a friendly way, yes? So the relationship already has more dimensions than 'only' sexual/physical.

But anyway... I was rambling... your question was really about what happens if/when one of you gets a bf/gf. Well, you answered part of it yourself; if you/him were having sex with their bf/gf, then you and Marc would stop the sexual relationship between you. Which makes perfect sense to me. But your question about if you/Marc were with another partner, but were not having sex with them... my instinctive thought is that if you had a bf that you love, you would much rather be having sex with him than with Marc! Even if you had not yet got to that 'stage' with your bf, my opinion is that you would have feelings towards him, such that you would not want to feel yourself as 'cheating' on him but rather wait and not have sex until he is ready; I think you would feel bad being with another guy if you love your bf. Because there are other ways that you feel close to someone even if you are not having sex with them. I don't know if Marc would feel the same about his gf if he got one, but I think also it's possible or even probable. So I think the question would answer itself in the situation.

I think you should be careful about the 'friends with benefits' situation, though - as I said, it is quite likely one of you gets to feel more emotionally attached than you suspected, and that makes problems for both of you as well as your future bfs/gfs.

 

[Mars Man]

I wouldn't say you were rambling there, Kinsao san. And much (if not all) has bearing on the situation at hand. A couple of points or so I would yet say may stand some adjustment, and maybe one day we can discuss those if I ever get that thread back into operation--it fell along the way.

I hope Roses gets back around to reading your post as well.

 

[Nuala]

I would break the fingers of any guy above the age of 18 if they tried having sex with my sister(She is 15). I lost my virginity at a very young age, and I regret it, because sex is nothing but lust to me now. It has no meaning to it, and I'm not referring to anything religious. Besides, why do you want to be around a guy who only wants to have sex with you? Come on, you can do much better.

 

[Kinsao]

Besides, why do you want to be around a guy who only wants to have sex with you?

^ Yeah, at the heart of it, basically he is just using you. You can say to yourself that's okay because you are 'just' using him as well... both of you are using the other for sex. You have to think not only about 'is that the kind of friend I want?' but also 'is that the kind of person I want to be?'

 

[Mars Man]

But it must not be overlooked that the more secure theory holds--and this again is an average thing, it's not gonna hold so true (or even true at all) for each and every individual--that it is through sex that the general male expresses and feels love.

That is not the same for the general female, though, and thus is one more source of unspoken (often unrealized) friction, but it must be taken into consideration equally among other things. (because there will be those males who operate in such a way among some who are greatly lacking in agape and philias--and we must be careful to destinguish them.) 1

I strong argue that to claim that 'having sexual contact, penetrative or not, simply for the purpose of excercising or satisfying eros is wrong, or bad' is making a moral claim. It stems from a social construct which without denial is founded on a religious belief-system in almost every single case--especially in Christendom and Islam.

Now, please do not misconstrue, however, I am not making an effort to give free rein without consideration for consequence, but, rather, am arguing that each and every case and individual must be considered, all circumstances must be considered, along with all possible understandings of how the elements of nature work in this matter.

You see, (and with all due respect, of course, Kinsao chan) the homo sapien is beyond a reasonable doubt 100% animal--no more nor less so than any other animal living on the face of this planet--the only distinguishing factor being brain size and habitual uprightness. Due to brain size and build, we have the capacity to subdue nature, and in some cases, for some humans, the ability to override it, but we must be careful not to overlook nor attempt to overrule nature. (This latter factor hinges on further arguments, but I stand in favor for that which leads to this conclusion.)

In other words, and in application for this particular case, I do not reason that we really have enough information to determine the exact neurological/physiological state of all players to pass judgement on what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'--and to simply make decisions based on social construct is lacking in depth.

At the moment, in this case, we cannot condemn the act of sexual involvement simply, and only for the exercise of, or satisfaction of 'eros. We can, and should, on the other hand, caution and give advice--all the while taking care to explain and provide further education on all the details of what is understood of sexology, psychology, biology, and of all the possible scenarios than can arise due to the actions that are being taken.

There will be those state of minds wherein agape and also even, philias is weak. Such individuals--of either sex--simply are not capable of 'love' ( in the more spiritual sense) because they simply don't have it in their neurogical system's hardwire. Males of this type will more correctly 'use' the female for sexual release without any exercise of 'love.'

 

[anjusan]

I say read a good juicy romance novel... let me tell you the details in some of them would make the dead rise... I kid you not! Besides reality cannot hold a candle to fantasy... it always works out in the end... unless of course you chose a gothic by mistake and then someone must die... so sad... but there you have it...

 

[The-Beautiful-Roses]

Kinsao: I understand emotion MIGHT become involved because we've known eachother for almost a year now. There are points where he makes my heart skip a beat by just sweet talking me, but ill be carefull to whats layed out infront of me. I decided to call it off if bfs or gfs become involved in the situation. Thankyou though, I really appreciate your thoughts on the subject.

I would break the fingers of any guy above the age of 18 if they tried having sex with my sister(She is 15). I lost my virginity at a very young age, and I regret it, because sex is nothing but lust to me now. It has no meaning to it, and I'm not referring to anything religious. Besides, why do you want to be around a guy who only wants to have sex with you? Come on, you can do much better.

If you regret it, wouldn't you sit down for a minute and think of what it really means to you? You said it has no meaning, but Im sure its more than just lust. I think what im trying to say is, if you regret it, wouldn't you want to change your overall feelings on the situation for the better?
I want to be around him basically to just feel good. Im not in the position for a boyfriend at the moment because things in my life are becoming a bit more complicated, so I can't deal with the stress. The friends with benefits no emotional attachment thing seems like a good idea.

^ Yeah, at the heart of it, basically he is just using you. You can say to yourself that's okay because you are 'just' using him as well... both of you are using the other for sex. You have to think not only about 'is that the kind of friend I want?' but also 'is that the kind of person I want to be?'

At the heart of it, would we really be using eachother? It doesn't make much sense and at the same time a lot of sense. If both people are aware and okay with it, is it really using eachother.. or are we just bad people...

Mars Man: What have you majored in again?

I understand both individuals must be considered... and that sex for both the male and female are often viewed differently. Is it true that men show their love for women through sex though? If so and he says something like "I love you" would he mean true..? Also if he says such a thing, what should I do?

I say read a good juicy romance novel... let me tell you the details in some of them would make the dead rise... I kid you not! Besides reality cannot hold a candle to fantasy... it always works out in the end... unless of course you chose a gothic by mistake and then someone must die... so sad... but there you have it...

Thats hilarious. Did you just reccomend me to read romance novels to please myself rather than to have sex? Ha ha ha. Could that be what you do? ((Im kidding, im kidding!)) Actually I already read romance novels and yes, fantasy is indeed more appealing than reality. We do what we can I guess. xD

 

[Kinsao]

Mars Man: I was not trying to say that such-and-such was 'wrong', simply to put the fact of the matter... sex is our humans' (animal!) nature simply for satisfying desire (as well as expressing love, but that is different, and not what is talked about here) and if someone uses another simply for the sex, I don't intend to pass a moral judgement on whether this is 'right' or 'wrong', but was thinking about this specific situation and its possible consequences/outcomes.

@ Roses: seems like you have made your decision and know what you're doing personally I think it's a good idea to call it off if one of you gets a bf/gf.. but I also think you would feel like that anyway (even outside of the reasoned decision)

You said it has no meaning, but Im sure its more than just lust [. . .]I want to be around him basically to just feel good.

^ I'm not sure how you square those two viewpoints... :?

At the heart of it, would we really be using eachother? It doesn't make much sense and at the same time a lot of sense. If both people are aware and okay with it, is it really using eachother.. or are we just bad people...

^ Well, that is for you to decide! :haihai: I was just trying to put forward how is the situation, so if you make the decision that's okay for you, fair play - you have obviously given it some thought and are not just being blindly selfish.

... sex for both the male and female are often viewed differently. Is it true that men show their love for women through sex though? If so and he says something like "I love you" would he mean true..? Also if he says such a thing, what should I do?

I think there is certainly a common perception that men are more inclined to show their love through sex, while women (still of course expressing love through sex!) perhaps have a more varied and subtle repertoire of ways to express love and/or affection. While I appreciate why people sometimes see things this way, my view is that it often simply appears that way as each sex has to attune themselves to pick up the nuances of such 'communications'/expressions from their partner. There does seem to be a perception that men are somehow less 'demonstrative' about showing their affections/love in non-[explicitly]sexual ways, but my opinion is that it varies from person to person regardless of their sex, and it's important for two people to be compatible in ways of communicating, expressing and understanding.

Waaaaaaw I'm going offtopic!

 

[The-Beautiful-Roses]

Kinsao: Im sure the decision on calling it off would be just. Throwing any bf/gf relationship on the line because of the friends with benefits ordeal would be cold hearted.

~You're right, I didn't square them well. It just seems like Faustianideals maybe views all sex now as lust and just that. If Faustianideals got into a loving relationship, I kinda thought he would want sex maybe through love and not lust? My situation however is that I don't want the 'love' feeling that comes with it. Marc and I were once in a relationship together and it caused great deals of stress. We want to have sex, but because of the long distance and stress in our past relationship, it kind of hurt us. Friends with benefits seems like a good idea because we can still experience the feeling good of intercourse, but not have the emotional attachment to necessarily hurt our hearts.

~ "[...]but my opinion is that it varies from person to person regardless of their sex, and it's important for two people to be compatible in ways of communicating, expressing and understanding. "

I guess the situation really does vary to each individual viewpoint. We can't judge based on sex, how each person will express their affections towards one another.
Attention is indeed needed in a relationship ((and im not saying this like it's a chore. Two people should want to be together.)) If Marc and I do communicate and understand each other.. with no emotional attachment intended, we won't need to express our feelings to each other. Does that affect understanding?

I was talking to my friend Jazzy about the decision Marc and I made. She said something like, 'you do understand that means no affectionate kisses, no building anticipation- its just you meet, f***, put your clothes back on and go on with your day.'

I doubt its like that in every case, and since Marc and I have known eachother for almost a year now it won't be cold like that... will it?

 

[Goldiegirl]

I would rather risk heartache than just knowingly let someone use my body. I have learned from heartache if you try to always shield yourself from the sad, scary, hurtful aspects of life you will learn nothing of real living and real life.

 

[The-Beautiful-Roses]

I would rather risk heartache than just knowingly let someone use my body. I have learned from heartache if you try to always shield yourself from the sad, scary, hurtful aspects of life you will learn nothing of real living and real life.

I have experianced heartbreak before. Everyone cries and feels sadness though, at some point.. right? Honestly im scared of depression. I hate it.

 

[Mars Man]

Mars Man:[/B] What have you majored in again?
I understand both individuals must be considered... and that sex for both the male and female are often viewed differently. Is it true that men show their love for women through sex though? If so and he says something like "I love you" would he mean true..? Also if he says such a thing, what should I do?

Hello there again Roses chan !! Thanks for filling us in with more detail. That is very important for the communication/consultation process.

My major is life; I am a professional student, and as long the organ upstairs reboots every morning and functions along the lines of what it has basically been doing the some past 30 years or so (giving room here for development), I guess I shall remain a professional student.

Now, back in the glory days, I did Oriental studies with language, then switched to business. I ended up throwing Culinary Food Art on top of that to prepare for going into the restaurant business here in Japan--which I did do for a short while along side teaching.

I have continued studying in a lot of fields however, (check out my profile) and sexology is one of them.

Now, when it is worded as I had worded it, in that section about the male 'feeling and expressing love through sex' it is in the same manner of wording that you find when reading on Evolutionary trends. For example, when looking at the 'Keep-Daddy-Home' theory, we come across the likes of 'the human female switched to hidden ovulation to protect the offspring.' This is not saying (as I'm sure you basically know) that it was a conscious, willed act or occurance, but that it had transpired in a way to some effect, towards some outcome, and by propogation along that lines, that type came to prevail.

Again, and this is in general announcement here in that I see evidence for its possibly having been missed (in general not towards any direct post) we are talking averages. There are so many factors to take into consideration--as has been said before--but there is a bell curve 'norm.' The general male will affected so as to be reinforced in the 'pair bonding' element of the monogamous relationship through sexually related stimuli--primarily the actual sex act.

When--and I'm taking the 'Western Cultural Norm' into consideration only, at this point--a male tells his bonded partner, in true, emotionally recognized understanding by that same male, that he loves the female of that bond, we can safely take that (yet depending on other factors too, let's not forget) to be a true reflection of that person's emotional state/self-understanding.

Now...watch what would happen if that female partner of that 'pair-bonded couple' begins to regularly reject or fight against sexually orientated propositions or moves. In a given length of time (again, depending on other factors too) the pair bonding will break. The male will feel unloved. The male will then return to the promiscuous state.

The joke is that there was such an error in the ole addage, 'the best way to a man's heart is through his stomach' that it overlooked (as Victorian society would, of course) the power and importance of sexual relation in pair bonding.

The female has a much higher sensory range and depth in the non-spatial, emotional areas than the male. (again, this is average...each and every individual will have ranges and degrees of build within that general norm even) The male who understands this (consciously or not) can and often does use this knowledge to lure the female into a pair bond-like situation. Sometimes that may even be simply for the one-night-stand...but, nevertheless, the essential evolutionary biological factor is the pair bond situation; the passing on of a gene-pool. Also the male may show his emotion of love (mostly eros here, but any degree of agape may and often is involved too) through these means, as well.

Now, having said that--and this is based on a number of studies--it must also be kept in mine that the male is quite known for being able to detach 'love' (in the full agape,'philias, eros manifold) from the sexual act. This is reportedly not as common for the female--the greater exception being the lesbian. (of course, a higher testosterone count)

The pressure which pushes some forces in nature has led to this kind of problem. The male, all the while being in a fairly well established pair-bonded relationship with (of course by definition) a single female, may execute a sex act with a different female. The 'love' does not shift from the former and on-going mate to the new sex-connected female. It can, but is not an absolute.

(of course especially is there little risk of this in the early stages of the pair bonding, because the brains focus in on the mate, and, of course, the 'love cocktail' still has the person on a high. Also studies have shown that there is a tendency for the male brain to effect certain female traits and the female brain certain male traits--as though the two were trying to reach a neutral state.)

So. . . I would say you can generally trust an 'I love you' coming from the male to the degree that after having taken so many other things into consideration, you can trust that person overall. It is through sexual activity that that element of brain state is stimulated and envigorated in the male brain, however. (not that it is not so in the female, but [again averages here] it is comparatively, noticeably less through the sexual act alone for the female than for the male)

Please keep in mind, that for men with lower sex drive, this of couse will be less a factor. For men that are asexual, it would be non-existent.

Kinsao chan; I understand your point. Thanks for your further input there !!

 

[Goldiegirl]

You have to face your fears and not try and avoid them. You can't possibly protect yourself from every possible sadness. You sound like you are trying to insulate yourself from anything bad, but by doing that you also fail to let anything good into your life as well. I also don't believe that using eachother for sex equates to your guy that you are a "friend"...you're just convenient.

 

[FrustratedDave]

We talked about us. I told him I don't really want to be in a relationship or really friends either. He didn't understand what I was saying so I further explained that I would like to be with him only in lust and no emotional attachment. He thought the idea a good one. Ive thought long and hard who I wanted to give my virginity to, and decided not to give it to anyone that would possibly twist my heart and drain the happiness from it. A friend of mine gave his virginity to a girl and got so mentally attached to her, he couldn't get over her. They broke up and basically their relationship is ruined. I don't want that.

Let me get this straight, it is you that suggested this? You speak about giving you virginity away like you would some candy!

He thought the idea a good one.

Is the Pope Catholic?

MM and others gave great posts and pretty covers everything , I just hope when my daughter is old enough to making these kind of decisions, that she someone to talk some sense in her.

 

[Kinsao]

At the risk of sounding like a jaded old cynic, loads of guys say 'I love you' after sex, but the vast majority don't mean it. (They might think they mean it at the time, but that's another story.)

I was talking to my friend Jazzy about the decision Marc and I made. She said something like, 'you do understand that means no affectionate kisses, no building anticipation- its just you meet, f***, put your clothes back on and go on with your day.'

I doubt its like that in every case, and since Marc and I have known eachother for almost a year now it won't be cold like that... will it?

Well, if it's more than that, in that case it is really more than a friends with benefits situation, isn't it? I mean, there are other feelings involved there that make you more 'warm' and affectionate to each other. Guess it comes down to the fact that it is what you make it.

Also probably these kinds of labels ('friends with benefits' and such) aren't helpful because people have different kinds of relationships which are more complicated than that and can't be easily categorised.

 

[Mars Man]

At the risk of sounding like a jaded old cynic, loads of guys say 'I love you' after sex, but the vast majority don't mean it. (They might think they mean it at the time, but that's another story.)

Kinsao chan, I mostly go along with that. . . although there are also finer points to look at too. One would be the English word 'love.'1 What is that? (you see, most folks don't break it down into its various strains, but just take it as a bulk)

Another point, which is similar, is the interpretation of the emotional state that produces (those words/that statement) by many guys in the first place.

The word 'love' will, in many cases (and perhaps with a very high overlap rate here--'many guys will say' almost fully equals 'many guys mean) be a different concept in the female mind from the male mind. Here, the male may very well be expressing as best that brain can, the hormonal/emotional state of that male brain--'eros'--with the word 'love'. The female brain will take those words, and conjure up a slightly (if not somewhat) different thing.

Over the couse of time, the actions and attitude of the male will show to the female that the expression 'I love you' was false because those actions and that attitude do not match that which had been formulated by the female brain. The female brain can then conclude that those were just empty words--a lie; which at times is the case, but at more times (within the class of example we are now inspecting) is simply a misunderstanding.

Eros is as much love as agape and philias are, although the English language is not generally used so as to distinguish them. We could hold, for argument and presentation, that 'eros' equals the English 'lust.' Many guys, then, are saying 'I lust you' to the female, but the female is hearing 'I am committing myself in appreciation, understanding, affection, care and concern, mental/spiritual and physical support and bonding to you, as a female partner, only.' (NOTE: this is imagery; the general concepts, and not a specific, willful and conscious formulation in the brain--it may well be in some cases, but I am giving the essence of the general state here.)

Therefore, in a situation such as what Kinsao chan has raised here, it can be very frustrating for the female if more 'female meaning' is attached to the 'male expression' than the male intended. I would posit that it would be much better, and fair play, for the female to ask the male to explain just what 'I love you' means, when and if said after having been given the green light on sexual touching and/or penetration. (not that the male will or can do that though) AND...do not be surprized if he says anything which essentially could boil down to 'I love your body'2


Now, this has been a little off topic in nature, and so I can only ask that Roses allows this to stand. It is, of course related, but...I hope you don't mind Roses. MM


1. One could say the same for many languages however. ﾋ?､, for example, in Japanese. 2. Always keep in mind I'm presenting an average. Of course a female can be capable of almost the exact (if not THE) same thing and of course not all guys will be of this sort...as Kinsao has correctly, IMHO, quantified.

 

[The-Beautiful-Roses]

Bad things happened saturday night/sunday and Marc was there. Ill be back to explain later

 

[Mars Man]

OH no !!! I hope all is well with you. Please do explain, in careful terms so that no misunderstanding or misconstruction occurs. MM