Hiragana, Kana, and Kanji.

[Chaotic]

Konnichiwa. I just recently began to learn the Japanese language, and although I'm learning romaji, I was curious about how I would write Japanese in the future.

Obviously there are 3 forms. I took a trip to Barnes and Noble earlier today and I found all sorts of books that teach you to write in these forms. But which should I learn first, and which is most significant to learn? Arigato!

 

[nice gaijin]

By 3 forms, are you referring to hiragana, katakana, and kanji? If so, I recommend learning them in approximately that order

 

[Goldiegirl]

I know that every said to learn hiragana first, and I did, but being in Japan right now, I wish I would have learned katakana first. I think I would be able to read more...even simple things on soup packages, soda cans...little things. I think that if I were going to Japan I would learn katakana first, but really either way you have to learn both! You can't get around that!

 

[Chaotic]

Heh, well...I don't plan on going to Japan for some time. I'm 16, and I certainly don't have that kind of money. In a few years though, definitely. So in that case (me, not going to Japan any time soon), does it matter what I learn first?

By the way Goldie, what's it like there in Japan? Good times?

 

[hkBattousai]

Konnichiwa. I just recently began to learn the Japanese language, and although I'm learning romaji, I was curious about how I would write Japanese in the future.

You can try using Japanese text editors in the first stage. Doing so, you will get familiar with kana. Then you can start writing with pencil & paper.

Obviously there are 3 forms. I took a trip to Barnes and Noble earlier today and I found all sorts of books that teach you to write in these forms. But which should I learn first, and which is most significant to learn? Arigato!

You have to master Hiragana and Katakana first. On the contrary of what most people say, it really doesn't take too much time to learn them. Just find a text on the net, which consists of both H/K and romanji readings of a lyrics or something else. Try reading it several times.

The big problem is learning Kanji. Ask again when you reach that step.

 

[Goldiegirl]

Japan is as always....amazing. Kinshicho almost feels like home!

Back to language...I know that my teacher said to learn hiragana first because that IS Japanese...it's all the sounds in native Japanese, whereas katakana is for loan words from other languages. I hope that's right! She then said to learn kangi. She has been teaching for over 20 years so I listen to her knowledge.

 

[Chaotic]

Japan is as always....amazing. Kinshicho almost feels like home!
Back to language...I know that my teacher said to learn hiragana first because that IS Japanese...it's all the sounds in native Japanese, whereas katakana is for loan words from other languages. I hope that's right! She then said to learn kangi. She has been teaching for over 20 years so I listen to her knowledge.

That sounds great I'd count myself lucky to have such an experienced teacher.

 

[Soloistic]

Basically you master Hiragana and Katakana first which together is known as "kana". After that is down and going smoothly you move into Kanji.

 

[Chaotic]

Ah, thanks for clearing that up, guys. I'll post again if I have anymore inquiries

 

[nice gaijin]

...my teacher said to learn hiragana first because that IS Japanese...it's all the sounds in native Japanese, whereas katakana is for loan words from other languages...

Phonologically, the sounds corresponding to hiragana and katakana are identical in every way. The latter is simply used more often for approximating the pronunciation of foreign words, which often include kana combinations not seen in native Japanese words, but it is still using the Japanese vocabulary of sound articulation. Usage-wise, this is a fair assessment, but technically, it's not correct.

 

[frostyg02uk]

Learn hiragana first. Unless your writing your name or your city or some other foriegn word you wont use katakana that much where obviously your use hiragana quite often.
Anata wa genki desu ka? is all hiragana
Anata wa Rory san desu ka? is still mostly hiragana with little katakana but thats probably the most usage your need at this stage and at this point an exam would probably let you off with using romanji for Rory.

A little tip for learning hiragana too try to learn the right way of pronouncing the words. your be more understandable in the future ;o)

 

[Chaotic]

Learn hiragana first. Unless your writing your name or your city or some other foriegn word you wont use katakana that much where obviously your use hiragana quite often.
Anata wa genki desu ka? is all hiragana
Anata wa Rory san desu ka? is still mostly hiragana with little katakana but thats probably the most usage your need at this stage and at this point an exam would probably let you off with using romanji for Rory.
A little tip for learning hiragana too try to learn the right way of pronouncing the words. your be more understandable in the future ;o)

What you said in Japanese looks more like Romaji to me?
I think I've got the pronunciations down correctly...at least the ones I've been learning. I bought a certain kit from "Living Language" and I'm basically reading a book the entire time. But any Japanese that's in bold (Dono Koohii o kaimashoo ka? for example), that's what the Japanese dude says (all he says). Seems pretty straightforward, there are plenty of examples and I don't think I'm going to have any problems pronouncing anything in this language.

 

[pugtm]

hello im also sixteen and beginning to learn. i suggest hiragana first for a slightly different reason. Mainly because once you know it you can write with it and that is in my opinion the best way to learn it. Also with romanji you wont loose the english "mindset". when learning a new language you have to immerse yourself in it or you will not learn as well and you will make mistakes in things like grammar.
try to Make a Japanese mindset and think in Japanese while studying it. Thats why i think hiragana is the most important. Anyways good luck with learning i know how hard learning a language is as Japanese will be my fifth.

 

[Charles Barkley]

What you said in Japanese looks more like Romaji to me?
I think I've got the pronunciations down correctly...at least the ones I've been learning. I bought a certain kit from "Living Language" and I'm basically reading a book the entire time. But any Japanese that's in bold (Dono Koohii o kaimashoo ka? for example), that's what the Japanese dude says (all he says). Seems pretty straightforward, there are plenty of examples and I don't think I'm going to have any problems pronouncing anything in this language.

I'm assuming you mean that you have a video tape/cd/audio file that is saying the things in bold? If at all possible, try not to guess how to pronounce words until you've devoted considerable study to the language. Some of the most basic words I still mispronounce (or misspell) because I learned them back home when I was guessing on pronounciation (like the word udon). Make sure to expose yourself to real Japanese audio...

 

[Chaotic]

I'm assuming you mean that you have a video tape/cd/audio file that is saying the things in bold? If at all possible, try not to guess how to pronounce words until you've devoted considerable study to the language. Some of the most basic words I still mispronounce (or misspell) because I learned them back home when I was guessing on pronounciation (like the word udon). Make sure to expose yourself to real Japanese audio...

Well, I've been watching subbed anime for years. I'm honestly having no problems with pronunciations...it all feels natural to me since I've heard a lot of Japanese audio in my days. Obviously I just started learning, but the words I have learned already feel natural to me when I'm pronouncing them, so I'm not worried about that.

I may be concerned about learning how to write in all those forms, but I'm sure I'll be fine (and I'm still watching subbed anime to this day).



By the way, I meant a Japanese native says the things in bold. A man, then it alternates to a woman throughout the lessons, back and forth. Simple enough so far.

 

[frostyg02uk]

Lol the reason i wrote in Romanji is so you could read. you said before your computer didn't read all of the characters and that you were learning hiragana so i didn't see much point it using it.

あなたは げんき ですか？
あなたは ロオリ ですか？

see the difference?

 

[undrentide]

Lol the reason i wrote in Romanji is so you could read. you said before your computer didn't read all of the characters and that you were learning hiragana so i didn't see much point it using it.

あなたは げんき ですか？
あなたは ロオリ ですか？

see the difference?

Slightly off topic, but please note it is Romaji not Romanji.
(Both roma and ji are Japanese words.)

 

[Chaotic]

Lol the reason i wrote in Romanji is so you could read. you said before your computer didn't read all of the characters and that you were learning hiragana so i didn't see much point it using it.

あなたは げんき ですか？
あなたは ロオリ ですか？

see the difference?

Actually I installed the Eastern package 2 days ago, so I can see Asian characters now. I don't know what they say, but I can see them

 

[Elizabeth]

Lol the reason i wrote in Romanji is so you could read. you said before your computer didn't read all of the characters and that you were learning hiragana so i didn't see much point it using it.

あなたは げんき ですか？
あなたは ロオリ ですか？

see the difference?

I believe ﾆ陳哉椎?ﾂー is the katakana for "Rory."

 

[frostyg02uk]

I just used the same way my friend uses, its his name and thats the way i think his teacher from Japan taught him to do it. If anyone else wants to pick apart my spelling or anything else please ^-^ try hard.

 

[Elizabeth]

I just used the same way my friend uses, its his name and that's the way i think his teacher from Japan taught him to do it. If anyone else wants to pick apart my spelling or anything else please ^-^ try hard.

I don't care who taught him or you -- ロオリ is Roori and ロリー is Rory and that's the law of the language.

 

[Chaotic]

Okay I have another question that recently popped up. I probably won't be learning to write for a while until I can get a good handle on the speech.

My little Japanese Grammar reference book says this:
In Japan, these characters or Chinese characters are called Kanji. They represent both meaning and sound, and often one Kanji has more than one pronunciation (or reading, as it's commonly called) and meaning.

Then it says this later on kana:
Hiragana and Katakana represent the sounds of syllables.


What exactly does this mean? Does that mean that Kanji characters are pronounced as full words, and Hiragana/Katakana are pronounced as syllables only?

 

[frostyg02uk]

Roori is the way its intended. but how does ロリー become Rory?
Although im still unsure what this has to do with the topic....

 

[JimmySeal]

@Chaotic
It means that kana are used purely for their sound value (like letters of the English alphabet) and kanji are used for their meaning. Most kanji have more than one possible pronunciation each. We have characters a lot like this in English too. To see what I mean, think about how the character "2" is pronounced in each of the following items:
23
52
289
1/2
Every occurrence of 2 here is pronounced the same here, but in each case it represents the same idea in different situations.



I think Elizabeth is right here. What would make the most sense is ローリー (ローリ would be my number two pick), I guess the former is already taken by Raleigh and Rowley so for some reason ロリー is the unofficial standard.
But your friend can write his name any way he likes. I write my own name ジェイムス instead of ジェームス. Still, having オ complete a long O in a foreign word is a bit more odd than having イ for a long E.

 

[nice gaijin]

hiragana and katakana are far different from the alphabet when it comes to describing sound. They are actually moraic writing systems (the mora being a phonological unit under but distinct from a syllable), but since 90% of syllables in Japanese can be described by a single kana character, most people take the easy route and simply refer to them as syllabaries.

What this means, is that almost all kana correspond to a single syllable, as opposed to a single segment (sound). This means that they all are pronounced as either a vowel (あ, い, う, え, and お) or consonants followed by a vowel (almost all of the other characters). Many words serve as simple examples of this structure: つばさ has three syllables, and three characters "tsu・ba・sa" Although it's by no means proof that hiragana is a syllabary (as it certainly isn't), it's easy to think about it this way in order to help get used to the written language for now.

and yeah, ロオリ is kind of ridiculous. the イ in James can help express the dipthong in the true pronunciation of the name. Writing ロオリ is like writing ジェエムス, incorrect. Part of the problem of this is that it changes the syllable quality; it potentially inserts a syllable boundary in the middle of the long vowel, which could alter the pronunciation and pitch position in the word. In other words, it gums up the works. There's nothing bad about being wrong, but just being too stubborn to do something about it...