Savage killing of 100,000 persons in Tokyo

My grandfather, who fought for Australia in New Guinea in WWII, told me an terrible story. After a battle, the Australians would go back into the jungle to retrieve their dead. Many times the Japanese soldiers got there first, just so they could mutilate the bodies of the dead Australian and New Zealanders. Often, dead Australian and NZ soldiers would have their stomachs cut open and filled with rocks, they would be hanging from trees, or they would be chopped into small pieces, all by the Japanese soldiers.
 
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do you know who managed POWs in south Asia?

The Japanese soldiers who forcefully invaded?

While you have a point that Russians were not nice to their POWs, Germans POW camps were far, far better than that of Japan. Allied prisoners of Germany (except Soviets) had a 99% survival rate, thanks to better care, provisions and treatment. This falls to 60% for Allied POWs under Japanese jurisdiction.

I'm sure you know about 窶冢ツ坂?凪?魯. You probably know about Wake Island, Palawan Island and Borneo, where all of the POW's (mainly American) were killed.

Then there is things like the Bataan Death March, Burma railway, Alexandra Hospital massacre, human experimentation, cannibalism, forced labour, forced prostitution, aid blocking, rape, looting.

While the story is a nice one, and it sounds like they must have been good people, looking at the big picture some really nasty things were carried out in WWII that you cannot deny no matter how much you try and blame everyone else.
 
I would like to remind everyone that this thread is about the fire bombing of residential areas in downtown Tokyo. If you like to discuss POWs: Do it somewhere else!
 
My grandfather, who fought for Australia in New Guinea in WWII, told me an terrible story. After a battle, the Australians would go back into the jungle to retrieve their dead. Many times the Japanese soldiers got there first, just so they could mutilate the bodies of the dead Australian and New Zealanders. Often, dead Australian and NZ soldiers would have their stomachs cut open and filled with rocks, they would be hanging from trees, or they would be chopped into small pieces, all by the Japanese soldiers.

That's why many Japanese and Asian soldiers were sentenced to death.

I know many POWs can not forget what Japan did to them, I think they should not, but it is also a truth that many of them, the cruel Japanese and some Asians, were killed after the war.
Japan Foundation invited some POWs, sorry not all, to show them Japan now, and they did not know the executions till the foundation explained them.
Does your grandfather know it?
 
That's why many Japanese and Asian soldiers were sentenced to death.
I know many POWs can not forget what Japan did to them, I think they should not, but it is also a truth that many of them, the cruel Japanese and some Asians, were killed after the war.
Japan Foundation invited some POWs, sorry not all, to show them Japan now, and they did not know the executions till the foundation explained them.
Does your grandfather know it?
He probably knows. Most knowlegable Australians know there was some sort of punshiment after the War that involved execution.
Actually, I don't think my grandfather has any grudge against the people of Japan. I remember him saying one day, "it wasn't the people, it was the government". Actually, he told me a few weeks ago that he was offered a position in Japan just after the War to help with the occupation. He declined the job though, saying he'd had enough of it all. But thirty years later ended up coming here to do business, so from that was able to give me some advice about Japanese culture before I came a few years ago.
 
Both sides commited atrocities, all countries involved in WWII did things that we find shameful today. We try to learn from our mistakes and move on, but the US never will it seems.

Yeah, I made a pot-shot at Bush. :P
 
In my small city, about 2000 civillians were killed by bombing on 7th july 1945 in center of downtown.
BTW
Thank you from a perspective from a small town, ufortunate to have been in the path of the bomber squads. I think we can get these numbers (100.000 in Tokyo and 2000 in your small town) into perspective by reminding ourselves that about 3000 were killed in New York 9/11!

I think that the fire bombings have seriously traumatized many japanese. Everyone knows about the two neuclear bombs, but actually far more people were killed through fire bombing.

The trauma is so deep that I have experienced young japanese starting to cry, when talking about this issue, even though they never actually experienced the war themselves.

I started this thread in order to give people a chance to reflect on an issue which is very real for many japanese - even today.
 
I would like to remind everyone that this thread is about the fire bombing of residential areas in downtown Tokyo. If you like to discuss POWs: Do it somewhere else!

Unfortunately when it comes to issues related to WWII or any part of Japanese history during that particular time period everyone here seems to take a "kid glove" kind of thinking in regards to what members make in response here.

Meaning that leeway is given, good or bad, to posters making their comments here and it appears that the "Mod's " or "Admin" let those comments go even if they are obviously off topic.

It is, like it or not, a type of selectivity that everyone needs to think about when making their replies to threads like this one. Since leeway is or has been given from the "staff" here in regards to the types of replies, whether off topic or otherwise, given here each member needs, myself included here :( , should show restraint in how or what is made in reply to any individual posts.

It appears to me anyway that the "admin" or "mods" here have their hands full and can not respond in a timely manner to "off-topic" posts.

In other words we have to police ourselves here people, let's work together to keep things on the up and up.

Cheers!
 
People remember things like this in order to remind themselves that they should not support a government that openly commits war crimes and atrocities. But how can the public be assured that their government is not? Press and media are different beasts separated by decades of change, for the worse I'd say. People like to think that only Al-Quaeda operatives and 'rebels' are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan, but how about the thousands of innocent bystanders that die? How about the tens of thousands that died in the decade or so between the original Gulf War and the current occupation due to the constant bombing raids of water treatment facilities and other social infrastructures via the 'no fly' zone?

I'm not trying ot hijack this thread, but rather making a point based on the posts I've read here. People wonder, 'whats the importance?', others reply 'the importance is found in the remembering, to learn from mistakes'. I'd hazard the opinion however that we haven't learned a thing except how to hide it better by obtaining control of the media. And by 'we' I sadly mean our elected governments, their lobby groups and associated business interests.

I very gingerly support Canada's troops in Afghanistan as far as I wish them all a safe return and support the vigour with which they wish to serve Canada, however I do not support the current Canadian government's decision to participate in the war on terror and in my mind I hold our Prime Minister Stephen Harper, just another Neo-con, guilty of war crimes by association. I feel that as a Canadian we aren't learning anything or achieving any peace over there. We have failed to learn from Japan, from the Jews, from Rwanda, take your pick. It's worth remembering any conflicts dead out of honour and respect, but thats only half of it, we also have to actively fight for change if we wish to justly invoke their names and lives.
 
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The trauma is so deep that I have experienced young japanese starting to cry, when talking about this issue, even though they never actually experienced the war themselves.
Don't worry the trauma you said.
The rebuttal against some activists, "Japan did nothing", is nothing ultra-militaristic or ultra-right at all.

Just look at what the hitory-facing countries, China or Korea did after the war. It was true that Japan needed the places to emigrate till 70', but she did not participate in any wars to get money or the golden ticket to the US.
If you have time, just google what the Chinese leader said to Vietnamese when the Vietnamese asked compensation to PRC.
 
I think that the fire bombings have seriously traumatized many japanese. Everyone knows about the two neuclear bombs, but actually far more people were killed through fire bombing.
The trauma is so deep that I have experienced young japanese starting to cry, when talking about this issue, even though they never actually experienced the war themselves.
I started this thread in order to give people a chance to reflect on an issue which is very real for many japanese - even today.

July 4th in 1945, in the midnight my hometown was bombed.
My father was a tiny kid. He remembered that terrible night when his family escaped in a hell fire. The morning came, then there were lots of burnt bodies and destroyed hometown. When he talks about this, always he smiles calmly. I wondered why he smiles... Now I know that people smiles when they feel too sad.
Most of our parents and grandparents have same experiences because almost all cities of Japan were burnt out during the war. They talk about it as same as they talk about a disaster like typhoon or earthquake. No hatred is there.
As Han Chan wrote, there is a serious trauma. However, they have been hiding it so deep inside and they never have told us who was wrong.
It may be a tale about a pride of Japanese. sorry, if it's off topic.
 
because almost all cities of Japan were burnt out during the war. They talk about it as same as they talk about a disaster like typhoon or earthquake. No hatred is there.

I think so ,too that was a kind of disaster..
 
Most of our parents and grandparents have same experiences because almost all cities of Japan were burnt out during the war. They talk about it as same as they talk about a disaster like typhoon or earthquake. No hatred is there.
As Han Chan wrote, there is a serious trauma. However, they have been hiding it so deep inside and they never have told us who was wrong.
It may be a tale about a pride of Japanese. sorry, if it's off topic.

You are not off topic - actually you are right on!

By starting this thread I actually wanted people to reflect a bit on how the japanese population have been influenced by having been the targets of a savage bombing campaign.
 
You are not off topic - actually you are right on!
By starting this thread I actually wanted people to reflect a bit on how the japanese population have been influenced by having been the targets of a savage bombing campaign.

Sadly however the memories of the people that actually experienced these bombings are probably getting worse with each passing day. Time helps to heal many if not most wounds yet youngest people to actually experience these events would be around 65 years old. Unfortuantely as with all major events in history all they become is some page in a book maybe with some pictures.

Noone wants those days to return, yet I agree that they need to be remembered and memorialized appropriately lest they happen again.

Like I wrote earlier Japan needs to have a national Memorial Day to honor all those that died during WWII, from all sides, and use it as a proclaimation of peace to show the rest of the world that "this" can never happen again.
 
They talk about it as same as they talk about a disaster like typhoon or earthquake. No hatred is there.
As Han Chan wrote, there is a serious trauma. However, they have been hiding it so deep inside and they never have told us who was wrong.
It's amazing how people can take the shocks and neuter them. Thanks for sharing.👍
 
People remember things like this in order to remind themselves that they should not support a government that openly commits war crimes and atrocities. But how can the public be assured that their government is not? Press and media are different beasts separated by decades of change, for the worse I'd say. People like to think that only Al-Quaeda operatives and 'rebels' are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan, but how about the thousands of innocent bystanders that die? How about the tens of thousands that died in the decade or so between the original Gulf War and the current occupation due to the constant bombing raids of water treatment facilities and other social infrastructures via the 'no fly' zone?
I'm not trying ot hijack this thread, but rather making a point based on the posts I've read here. People wonder, 'whats the importance?', others reply 'the importance is found in the remembering, to learn from mistakes'. I'd hazard the opinion however that we haven't learned a thing except how to hide it better by obtaining control of the media. And by 'we' I sadly mean our elected governments, their lobby groups and associated business interests.
I very gingerly support Canada's troops in Afghanistan as far as I wish them all a safe return and support the vigour with which they wish to serve Canada, however I do not support the current Canadian government's decision to participate in the war on terror and in my mind I hold our Prime Minister Stephen Harper, just another Neo-con, guilty of war crimes by association. I feel that as a Canadian we aren't learning anything or achieving any peace over there. We have failed to learn from Japan, from the Jews, from Rwanda, take your pick. It's worth remembering any conflicts dead out of honour and respect, but thats only half of it, we also have to actively fight for change if we wish to justly invoke their names and lives.

So very true I'm afraid. At least here in the U.S the majority of the people are opposed to the war on terror and once our current president's term has ended its a given a Democrat will be elected and will pull out our troops. It's a shame many of our men and countless innocent civilians will have to die before then.
 
By starting this thread I actually wanted people to reflect a bit on how the japanese population have been influenced by having been the targets of a savage bombing campaign.

True, but I think your title could have been a little different.:eek:

Also too, I think you need to look at the why it was bombed as a lot of war incidents have related causes and are not things that happened 'out of the blue', but rather were things that happened in relation with war and a 'sad' retaliation for attacks launched years earlier. There is no such thing as a 'clean' war.
 
You are not off topic - actually you are right on!
By starting this thread I actually wanted people to reflect a bit on how the japanese population have been influenced by having been the targets of a savage bombing campaign.

While thats all nice and good - what about the Germans who were bombed just as badly? What about the English who were terrorised by long-range missile bombings? What about Australians who were bombed by the Japanese? What about everyone else who suffered?
 
While thats all nice and good - what about the Germans who were bombed just as badly? What about the English who were terrorised by long-range missile bombings? What about Australians who were bombed by the Japanese? What about everyone else who suffered?

Earlier in this thread I wrote: "Apart from the moral issue, there are serious doubt over if the firebombings actually helped shortening the war. In London it strengthend the resolve of the population, and in germany it seems to have had similar effect."

Actually, in accordance with the Geneva Conventions, I find that it is unacceptable to target a civilian population, no matter where.
 
The justification would have been something along the lines of wanting to destroy production capabilities, demoralise the populace and their will to fight, and to clear way for possible ground invasion.

Still, it was pretty horrible and outside of another all-out world war, not something we will see again.
 
ナス窶倪?板ソナ?テ吮?弩ナスツヲナ陳ゥ窶卍シ窶堋オ窶堙俄?吮??ナ?テ倪?堙個青コ '07/5/31
ナ陳エ窶敘。ナス窶倪?板ソナ?テ卍(ツ広窶懌?。ナスs窶吮??窶ケテヲツ)窶堙ー窶ー^窶ーc窶堋キ窶堙ゥツ広窶懌?。窶「ツスヒ彗窶「ツカ窶ーツサニ短ニ停?愴耽ツー窶堙姑湛ニ弾ニ達ツーニ置ニ停?慊・ニ椎?ツーニ恥ツー窶板敘ス窶凪?卍キ窶堙?0窶愿コツ、ナ?テ吮?堙娯?弩ナスツヲ窶愿?窶覇窶堙ーナ陳ゥ窶卍シ窶堋キナ椎ク窶慊「ヒ?祥?オ窶ーテッ窶堙可、窶吮??ツ坂?伉、ナ?テ伉坂?伉人窶堙ァニ但ニ淡ニ但ツ出ツ身窶堙戸?祥?オ窶堙ー窶ケN窶廃窶堋キ窶堙ゥ窶「テサツ針窶堙ー窶督セ窶堙ァ窶堋ゥ窶堙俄?堋オ窶堋スツ。ニ椎?ツーニ恥ツー窶板敘ス窶凪?卍キ窶堙坂?吮??ツ坂?伉新窶「ツキ窶堙姑辰ニ停?愴耽ニ池ニ停?ヲツー窶堙可、ツ「ナ陳エ窶敘。窶愬?窶ーツコ窶堙ーツ『窶愿コ窶怒窶堙個植窶督ッ窶冢ナスx窶掏窶堋ゥ窶堙ァ窶ーテー窶「テコ窶堋オ窶堋スツ』窶堙?肯窶凖ィ窶堋キ窶堙ゥツ考窶堋ヲ窶堋ェツ債ェ窶ケツュ窶堋「ニ但ニ淡ニ但窶堙個青コ窶堙可触窶堙ェ窶堙遺?堋ェ窶堙ァ窶ケcヒ彑窶堙ーツ深窶堙淞、窶伉ス窶督ッ窶伉ー窶堋ェ窶ケツ、ナ?'ツ、窶拏窶慊セ窶堙??堋ォ窶堙ゥナス{ツ静昶?堙俄?堋オ窶堋ス窶堋「ツ」窶堙?述窶堙冷?堋スツ。
地域ニュース | 中国新聞デジタル

Steven Lloyd Leeper, Chairman of the Board of Directors of Hiroshima Peace Cultre Foundation, stated Asians from PRC and Koreas would be chosen in the board.
Leeper said to Chugoku Shinbun, "there still remains strong arguments the A-bomb released Asia from Japan's colonial rule in Asia, so he hopes the museum will be a place where they discuss from strong point of Asian and multiethnic views to be empassy with and understand each others.

I am not here to say Asians should not be chosen in the board. Actually Chinese and North Korean should take more active role on anti-nuke movement.
The point is, however, what Leeper is trying to do is to give a meaning to use the bomb. The only raison d'etre of the museum is not something stupid "we are miserable victims or the attacker v. victim mentality", but no nuke no matter what reasons you have.

As always, Asia means nothing but China and Korea here...
 
A very important subject....

First of all, congratulations to Han Chan for bringing up this painful and important subject.

As I mentioned before on other threads, I was in a ground radar Air Force unit during the VietNam era, stationed in Thailand in late 73/74, that directed B52 bombers against targets in Laos. Of course, I personally did not bomb anyone that I know of at those moments (except maybe one strange incident), because technically we were at peace.

But as of 19 years old or so, maybe 20/21, we were told to be proud, because our unit had resulted in 95% of all fatalities in the VietNam era, which (how could anyone count) might mean 1.5 million deaths or so, and countless wounded.

We pushed buttons. Pilots flew planes full of bombs, but did not drop them. Navigators directed planes, but did not push buttons. Even bombardiers only lined up flight paths, waiting for electronic signals to release, -from the ground.

It was totally a sterile environment, but later I realized, "Wait a minute, my unit killed everything down there."

There was no responsibility for what collectively we were doing. Oh, we were told "you are fighting communism", but truth be told, we were trained to commit mass genocide.

100,000 dead, probably 500,000 wounded in Tokyo. I have talked to many veterans, some of whom were involved in the bombings of foreign cities, and only now do they understand that they were used, as I was used, to do horrible things to totally innocent populations of people, whom they did not see and were taught to hate with the false words "Look what they did at Bataan, look what they did at Pearl Harbor".

Almost universally, most veterans express regret and sadness for what they did, and continue to do in places like Iraq. Certainly I do, as I was part of that senseless killing machine.

And this is why I am a flaming peacenik today.
 
Shintaro Ishihara once said " I dont like Mickey Mouse"
becasue He saw the Mickey being drawn with the US fighter.
and he was attacked like that

 
more from my hometown again...

One of the neighbour cities is Zentsuji, JSDF is stationed today. Until 1945 Japan Imperial Army were there. This division was trained well and was famous because the first commander was Gen. Nogi (Maresuke).
In 1945, any city was not safe from air raid. Everyday anywhere was burnt.
However people in Takamatsu(my hometown) and other cities around had a hope that "It's not today". Because The army division had not been bombed yet. "If it comes, militarized city of Zentsuji is first." (You think so, too?)
The night of July 3rd was very clear and many stars above, said my father. In the mid night, the alarm raised. People rushed to the shelters out of houses. Soon the alarm stopped, and they came home and tried to sleep again. It was early morning of July 4th, 2:00 a.m.
It was a trick that the US often used then. More than 100 B29s once passed by and came back to the city and started bombing. They bombed around city first to shut the escape. Then, they covered whole city with napalm bombs. (just like gasoline and lighted-matches were falling)
The shelters never helped people, because big fire by napalm bombing suffocated them. People died lost an escape. They escaped nowhere in the fire.
It ended after 2 hours. My father survived, so I am here today.
80% of city was destroyed completely. 1,500 victims and 80,000 lost home. My father was 14 at that time. (I wrote before "he was a tiny kid". sorry, 14 year-old boy is not tiny...) I've never seen his photos of his childhood. He lost all in the fire.
Finally, the military Division of Zentsuji never been attacked during the war. Its buildings were saved as a cultural assets. If you go there, you can see the old chair that Commander Nogi used in the museum. (I confess that I like this museum... a kind of very historical treasure)
 
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