Savage killing of 100,000 persons in Tokyo

[EdZiomek]

Sheer insanity and genocide...

Han Chan and Caster51, I am not shocked at what you and others write.

I have talked to many, many veterans and victims alike. I can soemwhat understand the anonymous killing, like that of a pilot not really seeing his victims, and tell you when I was 19 and stupid, I thought it was a courageous and honorable thing to do, not considering for a moment what effect I could potentially have on innocent people.

What have we learned as a world in the 60-70 years later? What do you tell a 20 year old soldier today, or pilot..."Do not drop the bombs?" "Disobey orders"? It is the ultimate horrible choice...as one decorated combat person told the media..."Our government tells us how to kill people, how to kill the enemy, but no government teaches you how to live with yourself, for the rest of your life, knowing that you have killed people."

Dropping gasolene bombs on innocent people...mass genocide of innocents, has any American apologized?

Can I be the first to apologize, if no one else has? I sincerely, sincerely, apologize for the mass genocide of innocent people over Tokyo, and the thousand other locations, maybe the 10,000 other locations.

But what have we learned as a world in the 60-70 years later? What do you tell a 20 year old soldier today, or pilot..."Do not drop the bombs?"

Is there any legitimate use of killing power against "enemies"? Is all war unjustified?

 

[caster51]

this isan interesting note.

Though more than 1 million Vietnamese people were killed during the Vietnam War, they don't burn US flags now.
Though Indonesian people had been colonized by Dutch for more than 300 years, they don't ask for apology or compensation to Dutch at all.
Why?
Because they have a pride and a sense of fulfillment to fight with westerners and get their independences by themselves.

Though Americans and Japanese had the biggest war in the world history and killed each other brutally, we don't hate each other now.

Why do Koreans continue to hate Japanese and ask apology again and again in spite that Koreans didn't fight against Japanese at all during WW2?

Let's remember your childhood memories.

Brave boys don't hesitate to have a fist fight with other boys and get friendly after fighting.
Chickens are afraid of fighting and hold a grudge behind their back.
Cowards are cruel.
They would carry a grudge even after grownup.

basicary. how we are the victim is not Japanese mind.
If they interfere the past, we cannot help saying even what dont not want to say their fact.

Can I be the first to apologize, if no one else has? I sincerely, sincerely, apologize for the mass genocide of innocent people over Tokyo, and the thousand other locations, maybe the 10,000 other locations.

you dont need to apologize at all.
look at today's relation.
we are not living in the Past

 

[The7thSamurai]

this isan interesting note.
basicary. how we are the victim is not Japanese mind.
If they interfere the past, we cannot help saying even what dont not want to say their fact.

you dont need to apologize at all.
look at today's relation.
we are not living in the Past

I've always found it amazing that relations between Japan and the West have been (relatively) so good these past 60 years. And Japanese people in general are either really friendly towards westerners, or indifferent to them. Both of which are positive in my opinion. I've even gone so far as to research on my own the general thoughts of the people in Japan after WWII (I recommend a book called 'Embracing Defeat').

Also, most Australians are either quite fond of, or completely indifferent to Japan, despite WWII. The only real negativity you'll hear is over whaling, which is hardly going to start a war.

As far as I know the Germans these days get along with the English and French. The Americans get along with the English etc etc.

It makes me wonder what qualities it takes in populations of people who were once at war to eventually embrace friendship? And what factors cause groups to never find peace?

 

[pipokun]

When PRC was hostile to the former USSR, the Chinese encouraged more military spending of Japan.
Now, the Chinese severely criticeses "ultra-nationalistic, far-rihgt, barbaric, or whatever, Japan", even though Japan has cut the military cost, even the budget for our monarch.
Peace is such a thing.

 

[Ewok85]

Also, most Australians are either quite fond of, or completely indifferent to Japan, despite WWII. The only real negativity you'll hear is over whaling, which is hardly going to start a war.

Australia is like that Although the latest talk about whaling has included using military force to stop whalers in certain Antarctic areas - that would get sticky.

 

[caster51]

Australia is like that Although the latest talk about whaling has included using military force to stop whalers in certain Antarctic areas - that would get sticky

your OCHI(窶版ｽﾂ） is nice

 

[EdZiomek]

Amazingly good thread, thank you all....

Amazing statements, profound responses, devastating questions.

Some day soon, I think the world will initiate E-Nobel Peace Prize awards, or E-Pulitzers to persons who start threads like this one, thank you Han Chan, or make statements like Caster51 "You dont need to apologize at all. Look at today's relation. We are not living in the Past", or Bucko's thunderclap..."It makes me wonder what qualities it takes in populations of people who were once at war to eventually embrace friendship? And what factors cause groups to never find peace?"

My God! Where does one begin to attempt to answer all these points? All I can attempt to do is offer some ideas, some clues, such as..."Why is it the males that seem to fight the wars?" "When did females fight the wars?" Is war just some primordial male machismo testosterone thing...as in..."I am more masculine than my enemy, I am more brutal, I am more strong, I am entitled to destroy innocent women and children and enemy alike?" Would women say these things?

Studies were done on mass genocides of our enemies, such as the Nazis, and other horrific crimes of the 20th century. Of course, America's actions were not considered, but the common denominator seemed to be when one culture considered the other culture, "less than human", therefore that culture might feel it is entitled to exterminate the "insects" that are defined as "enemy".

So with this gathered psychological research and knowledge, and I tend to agree to some conclusions in this area, I try to look past the propaganda of my own country. In the last 7 years, I think I have heard anti-Chinese, anti-France, anti-Russian, anti-Canadian, anti-Cuba, anti-Syria, anti-Iranian, anti-Iraqi, anti-Saudi, anti-Mexico, anti-Venezuela comments, ...and given time, and world events, I think anti-Japan comments might be elected to this list, and who knows the reasons why. It is mostly garbage.

In short, I think political powers try to demonize other cultures, "evil empires", diminishing their equal human status I guess, in order for the people to support their political ambitions of the moment.

Again Bucko's quote..."It makes me wonder what qualities it takes in populations of people who were once at war to eventualy embrace friendship? And what factors cause groups to never find peace?"

Amazingly true.

 

[Ewok85]

Again Bucko's quote..."It makes me wonder what qualities it takes in populations of people who were once at war to eventualy embrace friendship? And what factors cause groups to never find peace?"

Could the generation gap and the fact that people of later generations have not been exposed to the situations, stereotypes and propaganda that the older generations who started and fought in those wars had?

You also have to think of the mindset of "the little people", when countries go to war its the little people that do the fighting, and rarely do they do it out of personal grudges but simply because they are 'told' to.

 

[The7thSamurai]

Could the generation gap and the fact that people of later generations have not been exposed to the situations, stereotypes and propaganda that the older generations who started and fought in those wars had?
You also have to think of the mindset of "the little people", when countries go to war its the little people that do the fighting, and rarely do they do it out of personal grudges but simply because they are 'told' to.

I don't think it's got anything to do with generation gaps. The Japanese people who were so veminently anti-Britain/America (or at least, told to be so) embraced their conquerors extremely peacefully. Most of them were just sick of the war, and sick of the whole situation, and a lot of them didn't really want to get involved in the first place. I read a quote one time about a soldier returning from duty in China. Upon returning home one of his friends said "don't get too relaxed, today we declared war on white people", to which he replied something along the lines of "well, this is going to suck..."

 

[EdZiomek]

Discounting Human Catastrophes of War

First of all, I am not sure I can add anything to this important topic.

One thing I am noticing in my 55 years, is that Americans are not taught about the 100,000 Tokyo killed in a single night. We are not generally taught about the 200,000 dead of Hiroshima AND the same number at Nagasaki, and if you could get technical about it, are still dieing from the effects I believe.

The Holocaust in Europe, as tragic as it was, is itemized as "6 million Jewish dead", where in fact that number does not include the Slavs, the Poles, the Gypsies, all Russians who died in the camps, etc. Probably 15 million persons were killed in the camps.

In Iraq, we are educated about the horrible tragic 3500+ American dead, not mentioning the half million Iraqi dead, as if they don't exist.

58000 American soldiers were killed in VietNam, an equal number is estimated to have committed suicide after the war, back in the United States, and between 2 million and 3 million Vietnamese civilians were killed. Which of the tragic numbers are taught to our children?

What is it about a culture, any culture, which overplays its own losses, and completely forgets the losses of the innocent hundreds of thousands, if not millions of other losses? Is it a human nature thing about "denial" of loss?

And what was the civilian loss of life for Japan, Korea, and the military loss of life for Japan and Korea, in World War II?

If this is a painful subject, then don't feel the need to answer. It is a painful, painful subject to me too.

 

[Goldiegirl]

EdZiomek Idon't where you went to school, but where I went we were drilled on all of the people killed in war on all sides. As a matter of fact, we spent more time learning about foreign losses more than American. We were shown horrible and extremely frightening pictures of Tokyo, Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Funny but we were never shown pictures of the 2500+ people killed in Pearl Harbor.

 

[EdZiomek]

Totally a-typical

Goldiegirl...I would love to contact your school to verify your claim, it sounds so a-typical of American schools, and I would have to say it sounds like an un-believable claim in the literal sense.

But let me believe you for the moment, what were the military AND civilian casualty losses of Japan, Korea, China, in World War II, (to the nearest million)?

 

[Goldiegirl]

I grew up in an era where the rest of the world mattered more! We were made to feel ashamed of what the USA has done. We were never taught our states and capital cities, but we learned all the African, Asian, European countries and capitals. We didn't even have "history" we had "world cultures" and civilization classes. It's war and people get killed. I would love to start threads with such obvious slants. Isn't all killing savage or is it just when the USA does it?

 

[Poke-mon master]

I don't think so.

When you are in a war you strike where you will do the most damage. Whether innocent people or not get killed isn't even an issue. At that time just being Japanese you were the enemy. So yes, they were enemies.

Do you know " Laws and Customs of War on Land (Hague IV); October 18, 1907" ? If you read this, you can undersntand killing inocent and unarmed civilian is difinitly war clime.

With your logic, you may justify 911 as a right thing of the war campaing.

 

[Goldiegirl]

I don't believe in "World Politics" as it is used only against the USA and no one else has to follow the rules.

 

[frostyg02uk]

LOl usually because the USA break the rules often. If we remember they didnt have premission to invade Iraq but maybe thats for another thread or even forum. Its an interesting point. Like Goldiegirl im a bit tired of these kinds of posts also as it tends to be one person posting, the next replying reinstating their opinion without even thinking about the posts that have been inputted. I doubt anyone reads these and thinks...you know what thats a good point. Instead everyone (almost ;op) just repeats their opinions without thought for change or understanding. If we were to write down the amount of people america has killed through bombing alone and civilians alone, well we'd be here all day maybe all week but im not sure that, that is the reason this forum was made.

 

[Poke-mon master]

Terrorist love to hear what you said.

Since USA is the only super power in the world, US can ignore any world agreement or promises. But if USA said that killing innocent people is OK, then terrorist easily abetment its people, say, "if USA kill innocent people like you, we can kill USA before USA kill you." I think that Not killing innocent people even in a war, is very important to fight against terrorism.

 

[frostyg02uk]

I agree Poke-mon master. I dislike terrorists because they dont have the guts to fight the army or even governent they always envolve innocent people. I guess at times it cant be helped during war that others get hurt or killed. But id rather the amount at least stayed low.

"Over 500,000 in iraq so far, 500,000 too many. Its like my city disappearing over night."

 

[caster51]

if USA kill innocent people like you, we can kill USA before USA kill you." I think that Not killing innocent people even in a war, is very important to fight against terrorism.

American soldiers group raped and killed 14 years girl and killed 6 yeaes old kid in Iraq

wow it is terrible.
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=11375

as the history of Iraq, it might be written American army raped and killed even kids

 

[diceke]

American soldiers group raped and killed 14 years girl and killed 6 yeaes old kid in Iraq

wow it is terrible.
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=11375

as the history of Iraq, it might be written American army raped and killed even kids

The US military has been doing the body counts of those killed by insurgents, and not of those killed by the US forces, just attempting to evade bad publicity, and justifying the war against terrorism. Hypocritical, IMO. ☝

The US is a country that never learns.

 

[frostyg02uk]

The total death count for civilains since the invasion of Iraq is over 500,000. That was confirmed a while back now so even if the USA dont count their own rate, which would be hard anyway someone does take down the stats.
As for the soldiers raping anyone never mind children, ive not heard about that yet so im unsure on how true that is. Im sure it would make a big scandel if it was true.

 

[caster51]

Im sure it would make a big scandel if it was true

the death penalty was already judged?

and Her family and 6Years old sister were also killed after raping

http://www.mainichi-msn.co.jp/today/news/20070705k0000m030055000c.html

 

[frostyg02uk]

Really? thats terrible. I never heard anything about that even though our media has reported other crimes.

 

[Han Chan]

This is not a USA bashing thread!

Please try to stick to the topic. When I started this thread I wanted to highlight the fact that civilians were targeted during WWII. I feel that the experiences from that time still influences the Japanese today.

 

[Davey]

Agree with Han Chan, get back on topic. and that is not about the Usa and it's terrorism.