Anyone know of any advanced phrase books.

[FrustratedDave]

I am looking for any books that have any advanced "phase" and or "proverb" translations. These can be translated (直訳) pretty easily, but I was wanting to have them make sense if you know what I mean. I mean take this for example "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."
直訳, "1オンス分の予防は、1ポンド分の治療の価値がある。" I was talking to a friend of mine the other day and he had no idea what an ounce was, so if you get my drift, I am looking for practical translations that can be related to.

For example these are a few I just plucked out of my head, "there is always two sides to the story" , "Look at the big piture", "A guilty conscience needs no accuser." These are just a few that I can think of.

TIA

 

[Mike Cash]

Twenty-eight grams of prevention is worth 454 grams of cure.

Howzat?

 

[FrustratedDave]

Twenty-eight grams of prevention is worth 454 grams of cure.

Howzat?

LOL, Still a 直訳. Say that to a Japanese and see if they will understand without any explanation.

 

[Elizabeth]

For example these are a few I just plucked out of my head, "there is always two sides to the story"

物事にはいつも（少なくとも）両面がある。

"Look at the big piture"

全体像を把握して (Please grasp the big picture) lol...as long as they don't take it
that literally.

 

[FrustratedDave]

全体像を把握して (Please grasp the big picture) lol...as long as they don't take it
that literally.

"物事にはいつも（少なくとも）両面がある。" I find this way of saying this to be very impractical and a little removed from the original nuance of what is trying to be conveyed with "both sides of the story". This statement is more likely to be used in a situation like this, " I just got a new job, the pay has increased quite a bit , but I have less free time" , more like it is stating the good and bad in a situation (両面）. With this "少なくとも" I also don't believe to be a correct usage IMHO, sorry.
As for this "全体像を把握して" , I like this translation, but as you said could be taken very literally.



ﾂ

 

[Elizabeth]

"物事にはいつも（少なくとも）両面がある。" I find this way of saying this to be very impractical and a little removed from the original nuance of what is trying to be conveyed with "both sides of the story". This statement is more likely to be used in a situation like this, " I just got a new job, the pay has increased quite a bit , but I have less free time" , more like it is stating the good and bad in a situation (両面）. With this "少なくとも" I also don't believe to be a correct usage IMHO, sorry.
As for this "全体像を把握して" , I like this translation, but as you said could be taken very literally.

Is this a contest of sorts in which you are the judge as well as supplicant? It isn't like I'm getting paid for my efforts. There was no request for a nonnative attempt. I was trying to be helpful and that was the first thing that sprang to mind. Truth be told, I recalled finding it in the context of "always two sides to a coin." with 両面 having both the usage of "both sides" and "two sides." 少なくとも implies to me nothing more than "more than two sides."

 

[FrustratedDave]

Is this a contest of sorts in which you are the judge as well as supplicant? It isn't like I'm getting paid for my efforts. There was no request for a nonnative attempt. I was trying to be helpful and that was the first thing that sprang to mind. Truth be told, I recalled finding it in the context of "always two sides to a coin." with 両面 having both the usage of "both sides" and "two sides." 少なくとも implies to me nothing more than "more than two sides."

It was never a contest and I was neither trying to insult you at all, only expressing my opinion on the context of the translation, I also appreciate the effort you took to give those translations as this being a free site. I am sorry you feel that I was trying to compete with you somehow, but I am here to further my skills in Japanese ,as it means my livelihood in the (医療)
field and I won't take this lightly if it could have me making a communication mistake to my many staff in my business. Moving along, I agree that "two side to a coin " would be a more fitting expression. As with ." 少なくとも " , this implies something more than two sides which is impossible, hence me being of the opinion that this phrase cannot be used with this statement.

I believe that no one is perfect and we all have much to learn, or should I say that learning never stops and I was hoping for a place that I could get down to the nitty and gritty of this difficult language. If I have offended you or anyone else I am sorry.

 

[Elizabeth]

It was never a contest and I was neither trying to insult you at all, only expressing my opinion on the context of the translation, I also appreciate the effort you took to give those translations as this being a free site. I am sorry you feel that I was trying to compete with you somehow, but I am here to further my skills in Japanese ,as it means my livelihood in the (医療)
field and I won't take this lightly if it could have me making a communication mistake to my many staff in my business. Moving along, I agree that "two side to a coin " would be a more fitting expression. As with ." 少なくとも " , this implies something more than two sides which is impossible, hence me being of the opinion that this phrase cannot be used with this statement.

Naturally "at least two sides to a coin" is nonsensical. On the other hand, "more than two sides to this story/this issue/this problem" are variants of a highly common English expression. I threw すくなくとも in there as an alternative to two since I have no idea what the details of your situation may or may not require.

I believe that no one is perfect and we all have much to learn, or should I say that learning never stops and I was hoping for a place that I could get down to the nitty and gritty of this difficult language. If I have offended you or anyone else I am sorry.

Yes, of course there are native speakers here. If you're in need of such help with your clients I would advice you to put in a request for that translation directly with all the specifications necessary to accommodate your intended audience. I answered a question that was not even posed and if it is unnatural I am sorry. It would be different if I claimed to be a Japanese speaker or my words could not be refuted or clarified, but I didn't and someone obviously can. At least that is the way business is normally conducted on this forum.

Welcome to JREF !

 

[epigene]

Getting back to whether there are phrasebooks, these are the only ones I know on the Web:

Japanese Proverbs and Old Japanese Sayings
日英 諺・慣用句

They aren't extensive, and so are books on the subject published in Japan. It is difficult to find perfect matches, so the only thing you can do is improvise.
I think the best solution is not to try to speak in idiomatic phrases but to use ordinary language (free of idioms) to explain what you want to say. This way, I think you will pick up how the idea you wish to communicate is expressed in Japanese, based on the response you get after giving an explanation.

Just my two yen!

 

[Mike Cash]

LOL, Still a 直訳. Say that to a Japanese and see if they will understand without any explanation.

I am in the blessed position of no longer having to spend any portion of my days explaining this sort of thing. Pretty much the only one I ever find it useful to bring up in conversation and translation is "You can't polish a turd", and 直訳 works just fine for that.

 

[FrustratedDave]

Getting back to whether there are phrasebooks, these are the only ones I know on the Web:
They aren't extensive, and so are books on the subject published in Japan. It is difficult to find perfect matches, so the only thing you can do is improvise.
I think the best solution is not to try to speak in idiomatic phrases but to use ordinary language (free of idioms) to explain what you want to say. This way, I think you will pick up how the idea you wish to communicate is expressed in Japanese, based on the response you get after giving an explanation.
Just my two yen!

Elizabeth, the situation I was talking about is for example, when two people are arguing over something, eg when two kids have a fight are arguing over who started it to their parents. In this case I would commonly use the phrase" There are always to sides to the story". This is just my opinion , but "物事には少なくとも両面がある。" does not make sense ,rather your first translation "物事にはいつも両面がある。" is the right choice. I don't know if you have any native speakers you can talk to , but ask and see what they say?


Thank for the links. I will have a look at them . I suppose am looking for something that will give you a real practical chance at using these "phrases". I am more looking for phrases or proverbs that are used in everyday Japanese, then you can use these terms to further your explanation to the person involved. In regards to the second lot of bold writing, I am past that stage as that is just your basic way of communication and I am looking for something to go that extra step to further the understanding . How many of us use proverbs in everyday life/work situations to get the point across just that little bit better. I know I use them a lot when speaking English. I also encounter them quite a bit when talking about situations regarding my staff with other staff, I know quite a lot now but as they say "現状に満足するな！".


LOL Mike, that is a good one. But I am the "代表取締役" in my company and have about 30 or so full-time Japanese staff plus part timers who I have to constantly reassure and give guidance to. This is not an English school , but a typical Japanese company and the staff expect it to be run that way.

 

[The7thSamurai]

A couple of months ago I was in Kinokuniya in アメ村 and found a book on Japanese idioms. Basically there was an index of nouns common to Japanese culture, and listed some expressions related to that noun. I remember 気 had a million entries, but there were expressions related to dragonflies, mountains, water, and all sorts of wonderful things.

I'm pretty sure it was this one:

Amazon product ASIN 0812090454
but it may have a different cover.

Incidently, you can look inside that book on Amazon and see how it's set out. Couple of examples:

油が切れる = to be exhausted
顎が外れる = to die laughing
秋の空 = to be fickle
甘く考える = to take things too easy

Not exactly proverbs but a more colourful way to speak.

 

[Elizabeth]

Amazon product ASIN 0844284963

This book I highly recommend as a reference for students at all levels. It presents, well, 101 commonly used kotowaza with a literal translation of the idiom, its definition, cultural notes, and a short dialogue in Japanese. It's a great way to show your appreciation for the uniqueness of the language (hardly any are common in English). Besides that, the illustrations you just have to see.