The "value" of life to you and to the Japanese people.

[KirinMan]

I have become interested lately in trying to find Japanese people tht are interestd in discussing their thoughts and ideas about what the "value" of life is to them.

I know that in my country, the USA, the country is poloarized on many issues directly and indirectly related to this issue. Topics like abortion, taking care of the elderly, homeless and similar issues. Many of them are highly charged emotional topics that in some worst cases have ended up with people actually being killed because of their beliefs.

Why do you think that abortion is a non-issue to many Japanese people? I have never seen a right-to-life poster, or anyone talking on TV about protests at an abortion clinic. Do Japanese people that you know ever talk to you about why this is so?

How about the issues of the homeless? Recently there have been numerous cases of kids bullying, harrassing and in a few cases killing the homeless people here in Japan. Truly sad, but not a "huge" social issue to society here.

What is your view about how the Japanese people view the "value" of life. Is everyone's life "value" the same in their eyes or is there a social heirarchy that exists which determines an individuals value to society?

Why do you think that Japanese people as a whole seem to never get up in arms about or discuss openly socially charged issues?

I think I know and understand many of the reasons, please note I said I think I know, meaning that I also think that I may have some misconceptions myself and want to hear what others here have to think about this issue.

Sorry if it's a bit too deep for a Saturday morning, I guess I am just in a philisophical mood this A.M.

 

[Grandpa Frank]

Sometimes I think you have to consider....

MOTIVE. What makes people spend their time and money on their issue? Do they just have too much time and money on their hands , so they take on a "cause" for something to do? Are they doing it to impress someone or some group they belong to or want to belong to? Are they doing it to flush out a resume or look good on their college application. Are their reasons to look politically correct or be a shineing liberal. I'm sure there are plenty of honestly good people out there doing good things, but I feel here in the US many people are supporting a cause for the wrong reasons. Maybe people in Japan just don't have the time or money to get involed in causes, or are more honest in what they get involed in? Random thoughts of a tired mind.

Uncle Frank

☝

 

[KirinMan]

MOTIVE. What makes people spend their time and money on their issue? Do they just have too much time and money on their hands , so they take on a "cause" for something to do? Are they doing it to impress someone or some group they belong to or want to belong to? Are they doing it to flush out a resume or look good on their college application. Are their reasons to look politically correct or be a shineing liberal. I'm sure there are plenty of honestly good people out there doing good things, but I feel here in the US many people are supporting a cause for the wrong reasons. Maybe people in Japan just don't have the time or money to get involed in causes, or are more honest in what they get involed in? Random thoughts of a tired mind.
Uncle Frank
☝

Thank you for your thoughts here. I agree that many people in the US may volunteer for the wrong reasons, but in the end at least they are involved in something that hopefully is helping to make society a better place for everyone.

Maybe people in Japan just don't have the time or money to get involed in causes, or are more honest in what they get involed in?

I dont know, but one thing I do know is that it doesn't cost a whole lot of money to talk about alternatives to abortion if people are inclinded to think that the life of the fetus is important. Neither does it take much to volunteer at a local community workshop for the handicapped. It doesn't all revolve around money. I know you were giving random thoughts, however I think it goes beyond that.

I think that many Japanese people, at least the 10 or 20 thousand or so that either know me or I them, really have never given it a second thought because it doesn't effect or affect their lives. Outside of course of the 30 or 40 seconds that they might have a thought or feeling sorry for something for something they saw on television.

This is the 2nd largest economy in the world, yet private and corporate donations for charity pale in comparison to the US and other countries. Oh the government does give a heafty chunck of yen to ODA (The Overseas Development Agency) yet the private sector lags far behind.
I also feel that the people here, even if they wanted to do something don have enough access to information about where or who to talk to. The city offices have almost no or little information about community service projects things like that.

THIS THREAD IS NOT INTENDED TO BE READ AS A RANT, RATHER AN HONEST LOOK AT HOW YOU OR THE JAPANESE PEOPLE LOOK AT THE "VALUE" OF LIFE, WHICH INCLUDES HELPING OUT ONE'S FELLOW MAN OR WOMAN.

 

[GodEmperorLeto]

It's late, so if this is somewhat incoherent, bear with me. And as a further preamble, I haven't been to Japan, and although I know many Japanese, and have many friends who have been there/are there, I still have no firsthand experience. Take this with a grain of salt.

Anyway, Japanese society is very collectivist. The individual and his own opinions are subsumed for the greater good of the whole. Therefore, in accordance with social ideals that have strong Confucian foundations, care for the elderly is of paramount importance. However, the value of life there isn't exactly as comparable to westerners. Suicide, for example, while considered cowardly in the West, is acceptable to the Japanese, and even considered honorable in some circumstances.

Finally, the physical distress of individuals is often ignored by the greater society. I cannot find it, but there was an earlier thread a month or two ago, in which the original poster related a number of stories in which he came across a person in physical distress that was being ignored by his/her countrymen. The gaijin poster said that in one instance, the person would have been killed had he not intervened, but no Japanese person could have been bothered to do something about it.

This is not, in my opinion, indicative of an "individualist" or "it's somebody else's problem" mentality. Rather, I take it to be the collectivist mentality taken to a fault. The society as a whole ignores the individual that doesn't conform or cannot survive. Perhaps it smacks of Jungian psychology, but I'd argue that the individual Japanese in question made no conscious decision to ignore the distressed persons, but rather made the decision as a whole.

Hence, life has value, but it only has value if it is firmly delineated in it's function, and only so long as it follows that function. Anyway, that's my impression on the fly, at midnight.

 

[Elizabeth]

I think that many Japanese people, at least the 10 or 20 thousand or so that either know me or I them, really have never given it a second thought because it doesn't effect or affect their lives.

Definately. It is one of the keystones to understanding social activism in general. Besides not having a religious community in the country, where most of the anti abortion energy comes from in the US, at least the folks I know well are highly practical, generous to an extreme with those around them and yet have a very hard time getting interested in anyone they haven't personally ever met. If raising the issue leads to endless bitter debate and theoretical conjecture on the viability of life at various stages it's pretty clear why the same phenomeon doesn't replicate itself in Japan.

On the point of handicapped, homeless and physical distress as personal weakness, I've witnessed both sides : instances of sickness both attended with with great care and in other cases largely ignored or taken as a sign of mental fallibility. It's difficult to generalize, although the latter could also spring from a desire not to get overly involved in others' personal business or situation. Another characteristic that has taken me years to realize doesn't mean lack of feeling, just difficulty demonstrating it proactively....

 

[KirinMan]

I would like to add something that I saw on TV tonight. A little background first, every Saturday evening at 6:30 P.M. NHK broadcasts a program called "Kodomo News" (Children's News) which the family that is portrayed on the program discusses news issues from the following week, explaining them in very easy to understand terminology that kids can understand.

Anyway tonight they had a spor talking about kids, Elementary School and Junior High School, doing volunteer work in their communities. It was great to see, the ES kids went around to the housing projects, huge apartment complexes that in some cases are 10 stories high, and on their way to school they stopped off at the eldery people's apartments and took out their trash for them, because the act of going up and down the stairs was a real chore and burden for them. I applaude the kids for taking the time to help out in their own way. Another corner was about JHS students doing cleanup up work and helping out with the elderly and kids in their communities. Another kudos to them.

Point is however that outside of the kids I find that kind of involvement among adults to be limited at best. People seem to think it's ok for the kids but not themselves. I find that to be a sad commentary about people not taking the time to look out for the "needy" in their community.

 

[pipokun]

After I realised I could laugh at rakugo stories in the Edo, I felt I came to understand what Nietzsche called the eternal return or what Natsume Soseki called sokutenkyoshi.
I suppose my grand-grand-grand... son/daughter in the 23rd century will laugh at me, how crappy TV shows I watch.

A cray figure in the Jomon

The most violent generation was the post-war baby boomer at least in Japan, though media tends to claim kids are now living in the hell...

 

[Elizabeth]

Point is however that outside of the kids I find that kind of involvement among adults to be limited at best. People seem to think it's ok for the kids but not themselves. I find that to be a sad commentary about people not taking the time to look out for the "needy" in their community.

The story of "disaster volunteers," those who step in to help with immediate cleanup after an earthquake, flood or such is the only category of service that I would say is particularly popular. Especially in wake of the 1995 Hanshin and 2004 Niigata Great quakes. Sad indeed that more "intimate" or everyday community needs are not as sexy, or at least the need not as well publicized.

 

[KirinMan]

The story of "disaster volunteers," those who step in to help with immediate cleanup after an earthquake, flood or such is the only category of service that I would say is particularly popular. Especially in wake of the 1995 Hanshin and 2004 Niigata Great quakes. Sad indeed that more "intimate" or everyday community needs are not as sexy, or at least the need not as well publicized.

So true, people do help out in disaster's that is a fact. What I would like to see more of however is the daily assistance that really helps a community become more of a community and not just a bunch of people living next to each other.

I wish there were "block" parties here like I had back home. Tried to do one here but "everyone" seemed too busy and were more concerned with "how" much they had to pay to participate, just to talk to their neighbors. Hell have of them dont even know each other's names. Quite a shame for a group of people that have been living next to each other for decades.

 

[misa.j]

Hell have of them dont even know each other's names. Quite a shame for a group of people that have been living next to each other for decades.

It is indeed sad. There is aﾂ saying "窶冦窶堙ｧ窶堙岩?堋ｪ窶｢ﾂｧ" (shiranu ga hotoke) in Japanese which means "knowing makes you upset, so if you don't know, you can stay as calm as the Buddha", and I think mind your own business type of mentality is seen often in places in Japan where there is no bond in the community.

Japan does have a system and organizations that reach out to elderly and handicapped, though. And, there are still many families with theree generations living together. One of my friends is a care manager who evaluates the level of needed care for elderly people, and my mother volunteers taking out handicapped people on a day trip.

Why do you think that abortion is a non-issue to many Japanese people? I have never seen a right-to-life poster, or anyone talking on TV about protests at an abortion clinic. Do Japanese people that you know ever talk to you about why this is so?

This particular issue, I don't see why needed to be talked about in public, and I think people who do seem to be draining their emotions.

 

[Elizabeth]

Why do you think that abortion is a non-issue to many Japanese people? I have never seen a right-to-life poster, or anyone talking on TV about protests at an abortion clinic. Do Japanese people that you know ever talk to you about why this is so?

Perhaps there are many who feel that the stigma of adoption and restrictions on birth control makes abortion a custom that has become practically unavoidable. One idea, though, for putting up a 'baby post' or 'stork's hatch' I heard on NHK news only this morning. A hospital in Kumamoto City has a director concerned about the frequency of abortion and promised a safe and anonymous place where unwanted babies could be dropped off with the goal of making a placement with foster/adoptive families. I don't know about the legality precisely, it just sounds like an opening at least for positive, nonconfrontational further dialogue around the problem...

 

[Elizabeth]

This particular issue, I don't see why needed to be talked about in public, and I think people who do seem to be draining their emotions.

Not in the same way as Americans, but it has to be said there is the uneasy middle way of the Buddhist Jizo ritual to honor the soul of an aborted child through an offering of gifts, prayers, some apologies and financial help at a temple statue. The theology is slippery but I think it must be a way of ensuring the fetus either resettles in the afterlife or will return as a mizuko child.
There may be memorial services for aborted lives in the West too, but basically Japanese tend to feel a reaction of guilt, sympathy, anger etc at the morality of it judging each situation more independently instead of ideologically.

 

[craftsman]

I think that many Japanese people, at least the 10 or 20 thousand or so that either know me or I them, really have never given it a second thought because it doesn't effect or affect their lives. Outside of course of the 30 or 40 seconds that they might have a thought or feeling sorry for something for something they saw on television.

I agree but are you not talking about the human condition here and not one specifically for Japan? I could apply the same idea that most people in any country do exactly the same. It's a sad fact of the structure of modern societies.

In 1994 I collected 6 million yen from Japanese people all over Japan, lectured to groups, met mayors and local politicians, and talked to people in the street. I was gathering money for the charity I ran in Africa and the generosity and interest that I encountered, as this had very little to do with the average Japanese person's life, changed many of my ideas about Japan at the time.

... the daily assistance that really helps a community become more of a community and not just a bunch of people living next to each other.
...Hell have of them dont even know each other's names. Quite a shame for a group of people that have been living next to each other for decades.

Again - sounds like any modern town or city anywhere in the world. But when I hear things like this I wonder if I am living in the same country because it couldn't be more opposite here.

 

[pipokun]

Just go to your local shakai fukushi kyogikai or other NGOs if you want to do volunteer activities.
I don't spend less times for the activities now than when I was student.
Some do, some don't. Sometimes do, sometimes don't.

 

[Shaka]

Not in the same way as Americans, but it has to be said there is the uneasy middle way of the Buddhist Jizo ritual to honor the soul of an aborted child through an offering of gifts, prayers, some apologies and financial help at a temple statue. The theology is slippery but I think it must be a way of ensuring the fetus either resettles in the afterlife or will return as a mizuko child.
There may be memorial services for aborted lives in the West too, but basically Japanese tend to feel a reaction of guilt, sympathy, anger etc at the morality of it judging each situation more independently instead of ideologically.

What do you mean more independently than ideologically? Sorry, I don't understand what you mean. Please elaborate.

 

[Thunderthief]

There haven't been prices listen on humans in a long time, I guess you could take the old rates from a few hundred years ago times modern inflation.

 

[KirinMan]

Just go to your local shakai fukushi kyogikai or other NGOs if you want to do volunteer activities.
I don't spend less times for the activities now than when I was student.
Some do, some don't. Sometimes do, sometimes don't.

Pipokun thanks for your reply and thanks to just about everyone else as well. My point about me doing voluntee work here, as I have a long history and record of volunteering for any number of projects, from teaching a bunch of really cute ankle biters basics in English to coaching little league baseball, JHS Basketball, PTA, doing gardening work for an elderly day care program, among other things. I kind of wanted to avoid writing that here for my own reasons but it's done.

I am talking about the "average" Japanese person. Or Japanese corporations. Japanese corporations need to get more involved in their communities and in the schools. Parents need to teach their children the value of volunteering and giving back something to your comunity. Things like that.

 

[leonmarino]

I don't know if the Japanese people or more loving or less towards its fellow citizens, as compared to Europeans, Americans or whoever. It is not right in my opinion to measure it along the lines of corporate behavior. This is because I believe that acting out of self-disinterest (by helping others) is just another form of self-interest. (I refer to the Zhuangzi Chapter 13, "With impartiality, there also arises partiality." for people who wish to know why I think that way.)

Think about it: would Nike have such high standards of corporate social responsibilities were it never revealed of its activities in Asia? Would Chevron have a whole department devoted to CSR if it were not for the events around its competitor Shell having to deal with all sorts of legal actions? The bottom-line is that corporate social responsibilities translates into dollars, euros, yens or whatever. Be it in the short run (companies giving to charities) or in the long run (firms such as BP setting up facilities in SE-Asia in harmony with the local population and environment), these activities translate into profits or access to valuable resources.

In Holland a lot of social stuff is regulated through the government. We have a very developed welfare state. Does this mean the people are more social too? I think not. I am pretty sure Americans are just as loving as we Dutchies, but many of the people here are "trapped" in the welfare-system, which grew disproportionately after the horrors of WW2, and are unable or rather unwilling to get out. (Why work if you get the money for free? Or in some (ex-)public sectors: why do my best if the government has the obligation to keep me employed?) In my opinion, a over-developed welfare system such as Holland's very anti-social towards the people willing to work and perform.

I don't think one nation's population is not more charitable or value "life" more than others. It's just a difference in culture and the way of looking at things. One person might find it social to help the needy and give money to those without money. Another might argue that those in need of work should not be given money but rather an infrastructure to be able to work. Yet another might simply start employing these people. As Adam Smith said a long while ago: "it is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest".

 

[Ewok85]

I really think that Frank jumped on the main factor early on - MOTIVE. Abortion in particular is a huge factor in the political sphere as it is often used as a weapon against other peoples morals.

I for one am pro-choice, but understand the feelings and sympathise with pro-life supporters. Japanese people, or at least the ones I have talked too, understand this too, and in a majority of situations abortions are done out of the interest of the parents in regards to the child - "if we have this this child will we be able to give it the best life possible?" etc.

Donations, especially corporate donations, also carry a motive. Tax breaks are an easy way to lower ones tax and can be highly beneficial to the donator - such tax breaks do not exist in Japan, and as such donations are taxed and give the donator little reason to give.

For example if I donation $100, and get $100 tax break, I have lost nothing. In Japan such a system doesn't exist, but if it did I could see donations being on par if not higher than other countries.

 

[craftsman]

I am talking about the "average" Japanese person. Or Japanese corporations. Japanese corporations need to get more involved in their communities and in the schools. Parents need to teach their children the value of volunteering and giving back something to your comunity. Things like that.

As Ewok85 and leonmarino covered in the above posts - corporate donations are a slippery slope. McDonald's, Pepsi Cola and other corporations sponsored physical activity education programmes and sports equipment for schools and football academies in the UK. They of course provided much needed financal and organisational input but, among many other things, gave out leaflets promoting Mars and Snickers bars which carried the endorsement of the Football Association 'Medical Education Centre'.

As for volunteering and giving something back to the community - again I'll repeat what I put in my last response to you - I sometimes wonder if we are living in the same country. 'Volunteering' is a national past time.

 

[Ewok85]

As for volunteering and giving something back to the community - again I'll repeat what I put in my last response to you - I sometimes wonder if we are living in the same country. 'Volunteering' is a national past time.
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In a country that has a huge stay-home mom and older-but-still-able-bodied population, what else do you think there is to do?

 

[gaijinalways]

I haven't seen a lot of it, but it has increased, especially with the young (uni students). The Japanese as a whole are less involved with volunteering than with hobbies, and possibly traveling. In America the numbers that volunteer are much, much larger, though of course some may have an ulterior reason for doing such work. Many times Japanese will pass up some volunteering simply, because they see no relation between what they do and any benefit to their own group members. This contrasts with a common American idea that something that benefits any person may be well worth doing as it hopefully will contribute to a better society.

 

[Elizabeth]

And, there are still many families with theree generations living together.

This is also an important factor I think if there is a reluctance of volunteers to carry on work traditionally taken in by nearby families or relatives. There may easily be as many elders who find it difficult to accept help from strangers as there are adults uncomfortable in thrusting themselves into such an uncertain role. Of course it could be masking a larger excuse to perform any work seen as out of the norm in a large, modern metropolitan area.

 

[KirinMan]

As for volunteering and giving something back to the community - again I'll repeat what I put in my last response to you - I sometimes wonder if we are living in the same country. 'Volunteering' is a national past time.

I strongly disagree with this statement, at least from the standpoint of an American accustomed to volunteering to help out those less fortunate than I was.

As Ewok85 and leonmarino covered in the above posts - corporate donations are a slippery slope. McDonald's, Pepsi Cola and other corporations sponsored physical activity education programmes and sports equipment for schools and football academies in the UK. They of course provided much needed financal and organisational input but, among many other things, gave out leaflets promoting Mars and Snickers bars which carried the endorsement of the Football Association 'Medical Education Centre'.

It still pales in comparison to the states.

Sorry I am not up to speed today and want to reply more but I am under the weather. WHen Im feeling better I'll reply with more.

Thanks for understanding, I wasn't ignoring you.

 

[Ewok85]

It still pales in comparison to the states.

You still fail to recognise that for a corporations or the wealthy, tax breaks from donations benefit them rather nicely. Its a difference of tax systems, not a difference of values that makes this statistic different, and you cannot put it any other way.