Society Contractions [Contradictions] in Japanese society?

[Belkov]

I know this was discussed in previous thread that I had posted where I shouldn't be getting my information about Japan solely from YouTube channels but I've been recently watching one from a Japanese comedian called Meshida. While his content is comedy, he does discuss Japanese society and culture as source material and I find it informative and interesting.

One impression that I had got out of watching the channel is contractions in Japanese society. It is a very formal and conservative society with rules for nearly every situation but for examples it tolerates things that goes against those principles like for instances public drunkenness of Salary men, Pachinko parlours despite strict gambling laws and a very large sex industry including the AV sector being nearly the biggest in the world.

As an outsider, it does seem to me that this is due to tolerating things as a way for these conservative rules and conventions to function in a society. I'm not sure if this observation is right because in this regards Japan is no different from any other society and all countries are different from what your preconceptions of it once you scratch underneath to how people in those countries lead their lives.

I just wonder what peoples opinions are on this?

 

[Lothor]

Do you mean 'contradictions' rather than 'contractions'?

It becomes less of a contradiction if you see the key rules of Japan being respect the hierarchy, not rocking the boat, and not disturbing others.

Regarding your final paragraph, I'd agree. People in Japan have the same preoccupations (and vices!) as anywhere else, but there's less freedom of public expression in society, giving the appearance of a very conformist society. The Japanese media and some Japanese people like to bang on about the uniqueness of the country, but it's not true.

Edit: An afterthought is that Japanese people are generally aware of the strictness of their society, so are generally quite tolerant of others' vices provided that they don't cause meiwaku.

 

[Belkov]

Do you mean 'contradictions' rather than 'contractions'?

It becomes less of a contradiction if you see the key rules of Japan being respect the hierarchy, not rocking the boat, and not disturbing others.

Regarding your final paragraph, I'd agree. People in Japan have the same preoccupations (and vices!) as anywhere else, but there's less freedom of public expression in society, giving the appearance of a very conformist society. The Japanese media and some Japanese people like to bang on about the uniqueness of the country, but it's not true.

Edit: An afterthought is that Japanese people are generally aware of the strictness of their society, so are generally quite tolerant of others' vices provided that they don't cause meiwaku.

I wasn't sure what I was saying was taboo and spent a bit of time when writing comment to try not to offend and make such a silly typo in heading

When I had read into this further, it did strike me as certain behaviour in society was tolerated as long as it was discreet in order to keep the system going. What really struck me though about this was a YouTube clip filmed in a Japanese train where a Japanese guy was nearly fighting with a Scotsman who was on the same train. The clip of it is here:



Coming from Scotland myself, the Scotsman in clip was being loutish and anti-social and most likely the Transport police would be contacted about his behaviour but nobody here would try to start WW3 over it. It crazy some Japanese guy would want to fight over an incident that could be easily dealt with by the relevant authorities yet lives in a society where industries that serves vices operate in such a brazen, unregulated way.

As an outsider, I can both sides of this type of conformity. There's a saying where I come from 'All fur coats and no knickers'. It is referred to woman who basically uses sex to improve her social position via marriage but then acts like she is better than everybody else. On the other side, it does annoy me when particularly men gossip like old wives about the indiscretions of others but you can bet your bottom dollar that while they claim how moral they are, they would be doing it themselves if they had to bottle to do so.

I'm not sure if this linked to another Japanese phenomenon I have recently heard of which is Honne and tatemae. I have heard of the idea of Face in Asian culture but this is a more detailed concept of it. A person has a public persona and a private persona and while these two are different, the public one is more acceptable in public situations so as not to offend others.

It's a very interesting phenomenon and to a point, it is evident here in Western countries as no fair minded person would go out and offend people in public or be perceived as a hooligan. There are a lot of good things about it that countries outside of Japan would benefit from whether implementing or re-asserting but I don't think it would work if done as strictly as it is in Japan.

 

[Lothor]

I wouldn't read too much into the incident. I once saw a Japanese guy almost come to blows with an American guy I was with when I was travelling on the Yamanote line with a group of other non-Japanese. We were being rather noisy (I was almost 20 years younger then!), and a Japanese guy got annoyed with us but didn't handle it very well and hissed at us about this being Japan. I was all for apologising but the American guy took it badly, and things got ugly very quickly between the two of them with lots of swearing and shouting.

The YouTube incident could well have been similar: a Japanese guy who'd had an awful day at work meeting a noisy foreigner with a few drinks inside him, and the situation escalating - we didn't see the build up to the incident.

Which part of Scotland are you from? I lived in Glasgow for a year and loved it.

 

[Belkov]

I wouldn't read too much into the incident. I once saw a Japanese guy almost come to blows with an American guy I was with when I was travelling on the Yamanote line with a group of other non-Japanese. We were being rather noisy (I was almost 20 years younger then!), and a Japanese guy got annoyed with us but didn't handle it very well and hissed at us about this being Japan. I was all for apologising but the American guy took it badly, and things got ugly very quickly between the two of them with lots of swearing and shouting.

The YouTube incident could well have been similar: a Japanese guy who'd had an awful day at work meeting a noisy foreigner with a few drinks inside him, and the situation escalating - we didn't see the build up to the incident.

I don't want to go off on a tangent with Japanese rail etiquette. The point I was trying to get across is that Japanese society is on one side very socially conservative to the point where individuals are willing to get involved in social situations that could easily escalate in order to enforce these strict social rules yet on the other, in other aspects of Japanese society is so much more liberal than in Western societies.

Which part of Scotland are you from? I lived in Glasgow for a year and loved it.

I live near there in which is charmingly referred to as Glasgow's hinterlands

The thing I will say is that Edinburgh is great for the historic visitor attractions but Glasgow is so much better for restaurants and the night life. In addition visitors can hire a car and they are only about an hours drive from the Trossachs national park for great hikes and mountain/hill climbing.

One thing I have noticed is that there has been an explosion of Japanese restaurants in Glasgow where new ones have been opening and they are not national chains like Wagamama. I'm not sure if it just a trend or if Japanese people are moving here and opening up establishments. I'm not complaining though. It's too expensive to dine out here and when I do go out, I like to have a nice Japanese meal rather than the bland alternatives like beef burgers and chips

 

[mdchachi]

I'm not sure if it just a trend or if Japanese people are moving here and opening up establishments.

If it's anything like the U.S. they are all run by Koreans or Chinese.

 

[Belkov]

If it's anything like the U.S. they are all run by Koreans or Chinese.

There has been a large inflow of immigrants to the UK from Hong Kong recently due to a UK government scheme so that could explain it.

 

[Lothor]

I don't want to go off on a tangent with Japanese rail etiquette. The point I was trying to get across is that Japanese society is on one side very socially conservative to the point where individuals are willing to get involved in social situations that could easily escalate in order to enforce these strict social rules yet on the other, in other aspects of Japanese society is so much more liberal than in Western societies.


I live near there in which is charmingly referred to as Glasgow's hinterlands

The thing I will say is that Edinburgh is great for the historic visitor attractions but Glasgow is so much better for restaurants and the night life. In addition visitors can hire a car and they are only about an hours drive from the Trossachs national park for great hikes and mountain/hill climbing.

One thing I have noticed is that there has been an explosion of Japanese restaurants in Glasgow where new ones have been opening and they are not national chains like Wagamama. I'm not sure if it just a trend or if Japanese people are moving here and opening up establishments. I'm not complaining though. It's too expensive to dine out here and when I do go out, I like to have a nice Japanese meal rather than the bland alternatives like beef burgers and chips

'Glasgow's hinterlands!' I probably cycled through your place - I did a lot of cycling in and around Glasgow when I lived there, and I did the Glasgow-Edinburgh ride several times.

Going back to the discussion, I think it's unlikely that the person was actively thinking about enforcing strict social rules, and Japanese people tend to be quite the opposite when someone is not obeying social rules in public or when something is wrong. 'Spineless' is the word I'd use! I've seen a dad publicly berate his teenage son very roughly, even pushing him, on an otherwise silent train, a half-naked woman who looked like she'd been beaten up sat on a train floor with her arms hugged around her knees, and an old woman enthusiastically spouting a lot of racist **** about Mongolians to anyone who'd care to listen, and in all three cases nobody did anything. (Admittedly I did nothing either, but I helped a few people with anxiety attacks when I used to commute on busy trains).

And Japanese people tend to be quite indulgent to foreign people, who are not seen as members of Japanese society so are therefore partially exempt from breaches of behaviour. It's rare that I've come across the 'Our country, our rules' attitude of the man in the incident I described. The flip side is all the othering you can experience in Japan even when you've been here a long time.

 

[Belkov]

'Glasgow's hinterlands!' I probably cycled through your place - I did a lot of cycling in and around Glasgow when I lived there, and I did the Glasgow-Edinburgh ride several times.

Going back to the discussion, I think it's unlikely that the person was actively thinking about enforcing strict social rules, and Japanese people tend to be quite the opposite when someone is not obeying social rules in public or when something is wrong. 'Spineless' is the word I'd use! I've seen a dad publicly berate his teenage son very roughly, even pushing him, on an otherwise silent train, a half-naked woman who looked like she'd been beaten up sat on a train floor with her arms hugged around her knees, and an old woman enthusiastically spouting a lot of racist **** about Mongolians to anyone who'd care to listen, and in all three cases nobody did anything. (Admittedly I did nothing either, but I helped a few people with anxiety attacks when I used to commute on busy trains).

And Japanese people tend to be quite indulgent to foreign people, who are not seen as members of Japanese society so are therefore partially exempt from breaches of behaviour. It's rare that I've come across the 'Our country, our rules' attitude of the man in the incident I described. The flip side is all the othering you can experience in Japan even when you've been here a long time.

The cycle network in and around Glasgow is really good. It sounds like you enjoy your stay here

I think using that example of the individual over-reacting in public wasn't a good one for what I am trying to put across.

At the heart of my argument, I was trying to say that on one side that the Japanese people are very polite and very socially conservative where they have strict rules in how to behave in public for the good of society. I had highlighted train etiquette which may sound excessive to outsiders but given the volumes of people who uses trains and the culture of working long hours and would like a quiet rest while going home makes sense.

On the other though, it is very liberal where example it has a large sex industry which is quiet up front where I had read about a restaurant, I think in Osaka, that offers meals but it is in reality a knocking shop where you buy a cup of Green tea and biscuit then upstairs to do the business with the lady of your choice.

It is quite a contrast although as you say, as long as you are discreet and what you do doesn't interfere with public harmony then it is tolerated.

As to what you mentioned about ordinary Japanese people enforcing social rules, trying not to be judgemental. There has been numerous stories in the news of the deeds of good Samaritans not being rewarded where they get into trouble for just doing the right thing. In my situation for example, there is serious consideration for Juryless trials of rape cases here in Scotland. Say like there was a half-naked lassie lying somewhere concussed and I try to help her. She accuses me of sexual assault an I'm up against the Judge a couple of days later. Without a jury and the need to get the rape conviction quota up, I'm for the high jump. It isn't worth putting yourself in that position any more.

I think we are in a situation in most societies where it is very risky for individuals to help in public incidents and they need to be careful to cover themselves. From what I here, a lot of Japanese people find it difficult to be assertive in public situations and in particular against individuals in authority. If say they intervened in a situation that was caused by the negligence of using the train, the train operator, with these situations, representatives of the company while try various tactics to stop the individual from reporting this. Whether this is real or imagined, I'm sure it goes through the minds of a lot of Japanese people and a lot simply don't have the social skills to deal with that.