Question Hiragana practice

[Haruto Uzumaki]

I'm a bit confused as to your progress. Were you able to listen to and write out all the words in my post #45?

文太郎先輩、
I was able to do most of them, but I missed a couple due to not hearing it in between the countdowns after each word that was said. Even after making the text to speech count to 10 after each word, it was still slightly too fast for me as well, so I messed up a few of the characters, and also just in general I messed up a couple as well from bad memory. So, I got close, but I'll have to try again to write out all the words. I'd say I got ~85% of them written properly.

 

[Buntaro]

渦巻さん、

I still think the best way to do this is to record your own voice, then take dictation from your recording.

Words with さ (SA) (hiragana number 11)

2. さか slope; incline
3. さき up ahead
4. さく bloom (v.) (plain form)
5. さけ alcohol (pronounced with the け sound not き sound)
6. あさ morning
7. かさ umbrella
8. けさ this morning
9. くさい stink; smell bad (adj.; accent the second syllable)
10. さかうえ Sakaue (family name; accent the first syllable)
11. あいこ Aiko (girl's name)
12. さかうえ あいこ Sakue Aiko (full name)
13. あさくさ Asakusa (neighborhood in Tokyo) Accent the second syllable, not the third syllable. In Japanese, we use a circle to indicate a correct example and an x to indicate a mistake.

[ あ・さ'・く・さ ] 〇
[ あ・さ・く'・さ ] X

14. えき train station
15. あさくさ えき Asakusa Train Station
16. さいこう best quality
17. おおさか Osaka (city in Japan) Be careful to use the correct hiragana for the second syllable.

おおさか 〇
おうさか X

18. こくさい international
19. くうこう airport
20. こくさい くうこう international airport
21. おおさか くうこう Osaka Airport
22. おおさか こくさい くうこう Osaka International Airport

 

[Haruto Uzumaki]

文太郎先輩、

If you really recommend recording my own voice instead, then I will do that instead. I truly dislike this part, but I guess there's no good way around it

おおさか 〇
おうさか X

So I'm guessing it's spelled this way because it's an old city? I heard that mainly Japanese from long ago used "おお" "ああ" and "ええ" to indicate long syllables, but is no longer used in modern Japanese, right? So would this mean おおさか is spelled that way due to the age of the city and the age of its name? Possibly created during a time when the double vowels were commonly transcribed that way? Just wondering
Anyway, I'll get on it and record these words with my own voice, wish me luck ありがとうございます！

 

[Haruto Uzumaki]

I finished! I made a couple mistakes, and my handwriting (plus image of the characters in my mind) is considerably worse than when practicing just writing

 

[Toritoribe]

So I'm guessing it's spelled this way because it's an old city? I heard that mainly Japanese from long ago used "おお" "ああ" and "ええ" to indicate long syllables, but is no longer used in modern Japanese, right? So would this mean おおさか is spelled that way due to the age of the city and the age of its name? Possibly created during a time when the double vowels were commonly transcribed that way? Just wondering

Sorry to say this, but your understanding is not correct. Here's my previous reply to the same question.

Need a word or phrase translated?

Thank you for your help, Toritoribe! But i didn't actually want another interpretation of the lyrics but an explanation of the words "omoidoori", "nozomidoori" and "omitooshi" i just gave you the rest of the lyrics to make it easier for you. I found out and admittedly feel a bit stupid that in...

jref.com

The quotation in the post is from the original rules established by MEXT.

1)
The long vowel "ō" is written as "o row kana (おこそとのほもよろ) + う".
e.g.
historical --> modern
当代: たうだい --> とうだい
若人: わかうど --> わこうど
扇: あふぎ --> おうぎ
今日: けふ --> きょう
蝶々: てふてふ --> ちょうちょう

2)
"O row kana + お" is used for specific words. These words are written as "o row kana + ほ or を" in historical kana orthography.
e.g.
狼: おほかみ --> おおかみ
氷: こほり --> こおり
十: とを --> とお
通る: とほる --> とおる
多い: おほい --> おおい

おおさか is written as おほさか in historical kana orthography. That's why it's not おうさか.

You need to remember these exceptions. As mentioned in the thread I linked above, there are many ways for Japanese children to remember these words. I still remember a song sung in an educational TV show for kids.

凡そ十の鬼灯と 凍った氷に覆われた 遠くの通りを通ってる 多くて大きな狼
おおよそとおのほおずきと こおったこおりにおおわれた とおくのとおりをとおってる おおくておおきなおおかみ

I finished!

You missed a dot at the upper right corner for all お.

You can think the first stroke of え is more likely close to a dot than a line. It's usually shorter than the last stroke of か, and the direction is from upper left to lower right.

The same goes with う. Your first stroke is too long.

 

[Toritoribe]

たかさ height; elevation. Accent the first, not second syllable.

くさい stink; smell bad (adj.; accent the second syllable)

さかうえ Sakaue (family name; accent the first syllable)

あさくさ Asakusa (neighborhood in Tokyo) Accent the second syllable, not the third syllable.

The types of Japanese pitch accents are classified by the position of the "core", i.e., where the pitch falls. I don't understand what you meant by "accent" since you classified the words of the same type into different types, or the words of the different types into the same type.

たかさ: type1 /た]かさ/ (high-low-low)
くさい: type2 /くさ]い/ (low-high-low)
さかうえ: type2 /さか]うえ/ (low-high-low-low)
あさくさ: type0(flat) /あさくさ=/ (low-high-high-high)

I don't know why you mentioned "accent" only for these words, either. It's reasonable to point out, for example, さく "to bloom" is type0 because type1 さく is 裂く "to tear/rip up", though.

おおさか Osaka (city in Japan) Be careful to use the correct hiragana for the second syllable.

おおさか 〇
おうさか X

The second syllable of おおさか is さ. A long vowel is a single syllable. You might be confusing syllable with mora. (Mora is a more important concept when talking about Japanese pitch accent.)

Sorry if you feel this is annoying, but I believe incorrect or inaccurate information is harmful for learners.

 

[Buntaro]

渦巻さん、

How did it feel, trying to write Osaka International Airport in hiragana? (That was an awfully long example I gave you.)

It looks like you wrote こうくうさい for international. It is こくさい. (For me, trying to hear and write long syllables and short syllables is one of the most difficult parts of learning Japanese.)

I do not think おおさか has two お's because the name was decided on during a particular era in Japanese history. The first part of the name comes from the kanji 大い (おおい), meaning large, which has two お's.

 

[Toritoribe]

I do not think おおさか has two お's

大い (おおい), meaning large, which has two お's.

Do you mean 大きい (おおきい), right?

Just for confirmation, does that mean you think おお is not pronounced as a long vowel "ō" in おおさか, unlike おお in おおきい? In other words, do you think おおさか has the same pronunciation as おさか?

 

[mdchachi]

Just for confirmation, does that mean you think おお is not pronounced as a long vowel "ō" in おおさか, unlike おお in おおきい? In other words, do you think おおさか has the same pronunciation as おさか?

No, he said the reason for the long o is because of the character 大, not because of some historical reason.

 

[Toritoribe]

Ah, I see.

The old kanji of 大阪 was 大坂. The oldest record where 大坂 appeared was at the end of the 15th century. Until then, the location was called をさか, and the kanji 小坂 was used.

大阪 - Wikipedia

ja.wikipedia.org

Incidentally, there is another version of Ōsaka; 逢坂. Hiragana おうさか is used for this location name/surname, but the pronunciation is completely the same as おおさか. The pitch accents are different from each other, though.

大坂: type0 /おおさか=/
逢坂: type1 /お]うさか/

 

[indyKD]

I just started learning Hiragana and I have a question.
I leart that Ti = てぃ but in an other site i saw that as Ti = たい.
If I got it correctly, you can use any of the "T" letters that you want?
And if so, than what is the most popular letter for that use?

 

[mdchachi]

I just started learning Hiragana and I have a question.
I leart that Ti = てぃ but in an other site i saw that as Ti = たい.
If I got it correctly, you can use any of the "T" letters that you want?
And if so, than what is the most popular letter for that use?

No, たい is never used for that sound. It was probably an error on that site.
てぃ is correct (usually written as ティ because words that use it are typically foreign.)

 

[Buntaro]

Ti = たい.

You need to make a small correction. たい = tai. look at these examples.

た = ta

い = i

たい = tai.

By the way, Ti = てぃ is an unusual use of hiragana. Where did you see this? Can you give us a link?

 

[Toritoribe]

I leart that Ti = てぃ but in an other site i saw that as Ti = たい.

You are referring to hiragana transliteration of English words, not romaji, by any chance?
e.g.
Till --> てぃる/ティル
Tiger --> たいがー/タイガー

 

[Haruto Uzumaki]

Hm... for some reason I didn't get notifications for this thread, or I would've replied long agooo

"O row kana + お" is used for specific words. These words are written as "o row kana + ほ or を" in historical kana orthography.

So if I'm understanding correctly, they use おお instead of おう on rare occasions but it doesn't have much to do with the time the word was made? I don't know if I'm getting what you mean, this topic is starting to get confusing Thank you for your reply though!

 

[Haruto Uzumaki]

You missed a dot at the upper right corner for all お.

oops rookie mistake

You can think the first stroke of え is more likely close to a dot than a line. It's usually shorter than the last stroke of か, and the direction is from upper left to lower right.

The same goes with う. Your first stroke is too long.

I'll try my best to master the proportions, but i seem to just have an issue with characters that have disconnected strokes like that especially when it's nearly parallel but not parallel, those throw me off the most I just can't seem to visualize or feel the exact spacing and length ratio between each piece... Unless I can get better by just writing a lot more every day I don't know what else to do, because even though I already am aware of what you said, when I start writing it just doesn't come out right, and I can tell that it's not right, but I don't know what exactly I need to adjust and sometimes I adjust the wrong thing and make it even worse than before

 

[Haruto Uzumaki]

Sorry if you feel this is annoying, but I believe incorrect or inaccurate information is harmful for learners.

I agree, it's good to have correct information so we don't get into bad habits however, it's safe to say that most of what you said is a bit over my head for now mostly due to the technical terms you used that I haven't learned yet

 

[Haruto Uzumaki]

@Buntaro 先輩、

How did it feel, trying to write Osaka International Airport in hiragana? (That was an awfully long example I gave you.)

Well, the hard part wasn't the writing but more the memorization of the word spellings... similarly to what you stated in the next quote, I started to confuse the similar words and mix them up

It looks like you wrote こうくうさい for international. It is こくさい. (For me, trying to hear and write long syllables and short syllables is one of the most difficult parts of learning Japanese.)

I probably did And yeah, it's hard for me too, but like I said before it was mainly the similarity between the words and because they were all right next to each other, that I started to put extra characters in the wrong words and mess things up I feel a bit unsatisfied with my result so I'll have to do it again with this section, if I want to be less fallible than a native when it comes to writing... I don't expect that to happen in just one year though, I guess.

I do not think おおさか has two お's because the name was decided on during a particular era in Japanese history. The first part of the name comes from the kanji 大い (おおい), meaning large, which has two お's.

Ohhh okay, I understand now, that makes sense! I was confused by the explanation Toritoribe gave, but I think this helped it make sense. Thanks

 

[Haruto Uzumaki]

I just started learning Hiragana and I have a question.
I leart that Ti = てぃ but in an other site i saw that as Ti = たい.
If I got it correctly, you can use any of the "T" letters that you want?
And if so, than what is the most popular letter for that use?

I don't think "ti" is a syllable commonly used in regular japanese, it would be for transliterating foreign words into katakana, but I've never once seen a japanese word in hiragana with "ti" and maybe they do exist but it's definitely gonna be rare. I think what happened with the other site saying "たい (tai)" is because that's the closest thing in normal hiragana, since "ti" would usually only be used in katakana.

 

[Buntaro]

I just can't seem to visualize or feel the exact spacing and length ratio between each piece

渦巻さん、

Since you are not working with an in-person teacher, I think all you can do for now is just keep writing hiragana and not worry about spacing and proportion. Don't worry, they will eventually become second-nature. But continuing to trace on those tracing papers will help.

I'll have to do it again with this section...

Do not practice sections that you have already practiced. (Don't worry, you have plenty of practice-writing the already-covered hiragana in future practice sections.) You need to keep moving forward and practice more new hiragana.

Time for a new hiragana:

Words with し (SHI) (hiragana number 12)

1. し one way to say four
2. しお salt
4. しか deer
5. あし leg; foot
6. うし cow
7. こし waist; hips
8. こうし Confucius (Accent the first syllable.)
9. しあい game; contest (Accent the second syllable.)
10. しこく (one of the four main Japanese islands) Accent the second syllable.
11. おいしい delicious (Accent the first and third syllables.)
12. おおさか し Osaka City
13. おかしい strange; unusual. (Accent the third syllable.)
14. こけし armless wooden doll popular in Japan (See link below.)
15. あ、い、う、え、お The first five hiragana
16. か、き、く、け、こ The KA hiragana
17. えいこく England
18. おいしい さけ delicious sake
19. おく えき Oku Train Station
20. さかうえ Sakaue (family name)
21. あいこ Aiko (girl's name)
22. さかうえ あいこ Sakaue Aiko (full name)
23. あさくさ こうこう Asakusa High School (accent the second syllable in Asakusa)
24. おおさか こくさい くうこう Osaka International Airport

Here is the Wikipedia page on kokeshi.

Kokeshi - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[nice gaijin]

One tip for @Haruto Uzumaki

Remember when you're practicing your writing, that everything was originally written with a brush. Most fonts reflect this with having non-uniform stroke widths and have those little "hooks" that happen when you change direction of the brush as you lift it off the paper. A lot of the aesthetics even in computer fonts today are determined by this history of calligraphy.

Practicing not just the stroke order, but getting the right movement as you lift and lower the pen/pencil will give you more consistent results. It'll also make sense why sometimes some characters may have strokes that can be "connected" or "unconnected," like さ. See how it's written at 3:58 in the video below.

 

[Toritoribe]

So if I'm understanding correctly, they use おお instead of おう on rare occasions but it doesn't have much to do with the time the word was made?

That's right.

11. おいしい delicious (Accent the first and third syllables.)

This has clicked with me. Now I think I got why you classified the words of the same type into different types, or the words of the different types into the same type, as I wrote previously. You must be misunderstanding Japanese pitch accent as if it's stress accent like in English. (As a result, Japanese words pronounced with those pitch accents sounds like unnatural.)

Pitch-accent languages tend to fall into two categories: those with a single pitch-contour (for example, high, or high–low) on the accented syllable, such as Tokyo Japanese

Some of the languages considered pitch-accent languages, in addition to accented words, also have accentless words (e.g., Japanese

Pitch-accent language - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

8. こうし Confucius (Accent the first syllable.)

こうし（孔子） type0(flat) /こうし=/(low-high-high)

examples of homographs
type0 /こうし=/(low-high-high) : 仔牛, 格子
type1 /こ]うし/(high-low-low) : 公私, 公使, 行使, 講師

9. しあい game; contest (Accent the second syllable.)

しあい（試合）type0 /しあい=/(low-high-high)

10. しこく (one of the four main Japanese islands) Accent the second syllable.

しこく（四国）type3 /しこく]/(low-high-high(-low))

11. おいしい delicious (Accent the first and third syllables.)

おいしい type0 /おいしい=/(low-high-high-high)

13. おかしい strange; unusual. (Accent the third syllable.)

おかしい type0 /おかしい=/(low-high-high-high)

23. あさくさ こうこう Asakusa High School (accent the second syllable in Asakusa)

あさくさ: type0 /あさくさ=/ (low-high-high-high)

Again, you might feel this is annoying, but I believe wrong information should be corrected for learners, including you.

 

[Haruto Uzumaki]

@Buntaro ー先輩、

But continuing to trace on those tracing papers will help.

Yeah, I'll keep doing that then, I'll try to do that 20 times for each character at least once a day.

You need to keep moving forward and practice more new hiragana.

I agree I have to be able to write all hiragana sooner than later, cause being able to write 20% doesn't do me any good

I will practice the し words you've given me on Monday and Tuesday, since I'm working today and tomorrow どうも、ありがとうございます！

 

[Haruto Uzumaki]

One tip for @Haruto Uzumaki

Remember when you're practicing your writing, that everything was originally written with a brush. Most fonts reflect this with having non-uniform stroke widths and have those little "hooks" that happen when you change direction of the brush as you lift it off the paper. A lot of the aesthetics even in computer fonts today are determined by this history of calligraphy.

Practicing not just the stroke order, but getting the right movement as you lift and lower the pen/pencil will give you more consistent results. It'll also make sense why sometimes some characters may have strokes that can be "connected" or "unconnected," like さ. See how it's written at 3:58 in the video below.

Thanks! I always assumed the brush stroke style had something to do with how the characters' strokes connect, but it'll be so much help to see someone doing it with an actual brush so i can get a better sense of the wrist movement. It would also be even better if i had a brush and some paint to do it myself, but a marker was the best i could do but from the marker vs a pen or pencil, it's an improvement...

 

[Haruto Uzumaki]

That's right.

Ah, I seeee, thankss