zuni and nai form
- Thread starter beluga
- Start date
Kimirei
The Chibi Shinobi
- 1 Mar 2004
- 8
- 1
From what I've learnt, 'zuni' means 'nai de'. Although the meanings of 'zuni' and 'nai' are quite the same, the situations in which they're used are different. I like to think of 'zuni' as 'without', while 'nai' as 'don't'. For example:
1) 'tabezuni dekakemasu'
= 'tabenaide dekakemasu'
= 'I go out without eating'
= 'I don't eat and go out' (if directly translated from 'tabenaide dekakemasu')
2) 'kakazuni oboeru'
= 'kakanaide oboeru'
= 'I memorize without writing'
= 'I don't write and memorize' (if directly translated from 'kakanaide oboeru')
But beware of another underlying meaning of 'nai de'. It's often used by parents in telling their kids not to do something. For example:
'Terebi wo minai de nenasai.'
= Don't watch TV and go to sleep. ('~nasai' form is a 'meireikei' or commanding form)
It's different from the above (1) and (2) examples in a sense that this one is a commanding form, and it's usually used with '~nasai'. (1) and (2) are something like "he/she/I (do something) without (doing another thing)", which is more of a fact than a command.
Hope this helps. =)
1) 'tabezuni dekakemasu'
= 'tabenaide dekakemasu'
= 'I go out without eating'
= 'I don't eat and go out' (if directly translated from 'tabenaide dekakemasu')
2) 'kakazuni oboeru'
= 'kakanaide oboeru'
= 'I memorize without writing'
= 'I don't write and memorize' (if directly translated from 'kakanaide oboeru')
But beware of another underlying meaning of 'nai de'. It's often used by parents in telling their kids not to do something. For example:
'Terebi wo minai de nenasai.'
= Don't watch TV and go to sleep. ('~nasai' form is a 'meireikei' or commanding form)
It's different from the above (1) and (2) examples in a sense that this one is a commanding form, and it's usually used with '~nasai'. (1) and (2) are something like "he/she/I (do something) without (doing another thing)", which is more of a fact than a command.
Hope this helps. =)
beluga
先輩
- 10 Nov 2003
- 152
- 0
- Thread starter
- #3
Thanks.
Yea, I made a mistake. What I meant was "nai de" rather than "nai".
For the "I don't eat and go out", I think it should be "tabenakute dekakemasu" and "I don't write and memorize" should be "kakenakute oboeru".
I can't figure out which one do you mean by more commanding... nai de form or zuni form?
Yea, I made a mistake. What I meant was "nai de" rather than "nai".
For the "I don't eat and go out", I think it should be "tabenakute dekakemasu" and "I don't write and memorize" should be "kakenakute oboeru".
I can't figure out which one do you mean by more commanding... nai de form or zuni form?
Kimirei
The Chibi Shinobi
- 1 Mar 2004
- 8
- 1
beluga said:
Oh I see. So you mean what is the difference between 'zuni' and 'nai de'? Okie, 'nai de' has a few meanings I think. For example:
1) ~naide: Negative meaning, telling someone 'not to (do something)'.
'kakanaide kudasai' = Please do not write.
'ikanaide kudasai' = Please don't go.
'kakanaide' = Do not write. (more casual)
'ikanaide' = Don't go. (more casual)
2) '~nai de~' = '~zuni~' = 'without ~'
I'm not sure for you, but my teacher taught me to recognize 'zuni' as 'nai de'. For the 'tabenaide dekakemasu' and 'kakanaide oboeru', it's more of just trying to illustrate that a person does A without doing B. The 'de' is more of 'and'.
'tabenai, de, dekakemasu' = I don't eat, and, I go out.
'kakanai, de, oboeru' = I don't write, and, I memorize.
Note how I put the commas.
If I just put 'tabenaide' without the 'dekakemasu', then it's just means telling someone not to eat. If I just put 'kakanaide' without 'oboeru', it means telling someone not to write. So this will place them in example (1).
3) '~naide ~nasai'
This is more of parents commanding children, like
'Terebi wo minai de nenasai.' = Don't watch TV and go to sleep.
'Mou asobanaide hairinasai.' = Don't play already and come in.
The first sentence is to tell someone not to do something (similar to (1)), and the 2nd sentence tells the same person to do what you expect him to do.
Notice the squigglies in (1), (2) and (3). For (1), I put ~ in front of 'nai de', but not at the back. For (2), I put ~ in front and back of 'nai de'. For (3), the 2nd sentence has '~nasai'. So:
(1) ~nai de: Don't ~
(2) ~nai, de, ~: I do ~ without doing ~
(3) ~nai de ~nasai: Don't ~ and do ~
For 'zuni', it just means the one in (2). Maybe it's better to think of it as 'without'. 'Tabenakute dekakemasu' etc. is technically correct, but I think the teacher wants to try illustrating with 'nai de'? Hmm.... This is just how I learnt it from my teacher. Maybe someone better can help?
beluga
先輩
- 10 Nov 2003
- 152
- 0
- Thread starter
- #5
Thanks,
I certainly never new there's a difference between one that has comma and one that does not. For the one with comma, I would have put it as kute form. If it's just comma that made the difference in the meaning, it would certain be difficult to put it in verbal form.
I do agree that nai de does have the nuance of commanding someone.
I certainly never new there's a difference between one that has comma and one that does not. For the one with comma, I would have put it as kute form. If it's just comma that made the difference in the meaning, it would certain be difficult to put it in verbal form.
I do agree that nai de does have the nuance of commanding someone.
Elizabeth
先輩
- 22 Apr 2003
- 9,839
- 135
I think of both "naide" or "zuni" as "without" and not limited to instructions at all. It just depends on the inflection you give the main verb. As for "Kakanakutemo oboeru" that is more like "even if I don't write it down/even without writing it, I will still learn it."Ewok85 said:
I'll try to ask and see.
