Yes. The problem lies in where you derive what you define as "death counts" and "actual events".ricecake said:I only believe in " death counts " and " actual events " not propaganda manufactured by any nations including USA.
Mikawa Ossan said:Am I mistaken in saying that China was in a Civil War during WW2 ?
Mikawa Ossan said:How dooes one know what the "real events" are, seeing as we were not there to experience them? We basically have to go by what people tell us happened.
Exactly. That is exactly why we MUST be critical of what anyone says.ricecake said:You,me and a few billion people weren't in Nagasaki and Hiroshima in 1945 and not there to experienced it.Well,we've been basically go by what A-bomb victims tell us what happened !
I've seen one unethical youtube video on JT forum recently,some Japanese doctored a TV program interview clip with a S Korean reporter saying it was Korea dropped A-bombs on Japan in 1945.
Regretably (if not predictably), with the vast majority of the population being pacifists, Japan's most vocal political voice toward its imperial past has been full of denial and devoid of courage or integrity. Reckoning one's past is the necessary if not sufficient part of growing up.The International Military Tribunal for the Far East estimated in two (seemingly conflicting) reports that "over 200,000" and "over 100,000" civilians and prisoners of war were murdered during the first six weeks of the occupation.
Poke-mon master said:This is the pull by Japanese TV program, and you can see the numebr from this picture if you can read Japaense.
サービス終了のお知らせ
They interviewed the people in China, Taiwan, Korea, Thai, and Singapole.
You can see the people in Taiwan and Thai and Singapole viewed japan as favorable country.
Also, it is the pull by BBC.
http://www.globescan.com/news_archives/bbcpoll06-3.html
You can also see the response from all asian coutories except Korea and China is favorable to Japan.
You said Korea and China is closer to Japan, but Japan had never been in the war against Korea, and very limited casuality in China because there is not much heavy fighting. Most of casuality in Japan army and navy were in S-E Asia,battle against UK and US militaly. And if you still think Korea and China had "utmost cruelty and savagery", please tell me why people in Taiwan had good image to Japan?
Don't tell me your personal opinion, but show me the some kind of 3rd party reliable sourse like I did.
inkink said:Ducking your head in the sand does not help Japan become a "normal"
country.
Mikawa Ossan said:Yes. The problem lies in where you derive what you define as "death counts" and "actual events".
Am I mistaken in saying that China was in a Civil War during WW2? To simplify a little, the Communists versus the Nationalists?
If so, one must keep in mind that the "death counts" do not only include people killed by the Imperial Army.
How dooes one know what the "real events" are, seeing as we were not there to experience them? We basically have to go by what people tell us happened. Remember, EVERYONE has their own agenda or take on things. The Chinese are not immune from propaganda, either, you know. They're just as human as the rest of us.
(1) Americans whipped your Jap-asses for Pearl Harbor,as Japanese Imperial Army slaughtered millions of yellow folks through out Asia.Japanese also specifically targeted ethnic Chinese in killing sprees in South Pacific.Poke-mon master said:(1) Most of casuality in Japan army and navy were in S-E Asia,battle against UK and US militaly.
(2) please tell me why people in Taiwan had good image to Japan ?
caster51 said:Wow!! interesting!!
http://www.gvm.com.tw/theme/catalog_inpage.asp?isid=241&ser=12189&k=True&pu=1
蕃新聞
simple...
bacause of 228 incident
and the japanse feel " we have the big debt in them. "
japan has good image to Taiwan, too
http://kandouii.sakura.ne.jp/flash/takasago.htm
and this one http://www.taiwanheadlines.gov.tw/20000505/20000505s3.html
caster51 said:...
Nanking Massacre?
what hell is that?
ricecake said:You,me and a few billion people weren't in Nagasaki and Hiroshima in 1945 and not there to experienced it.Well,we've been basically go by what A-bomb victims tell us what happened !
inkink said:A-bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
Must be Caster51's imagination.
inkink said:So based on your logc:
One should not trust the Far East international tribunal constituting the US, UK, France, Russia, China, etc, which is not Chinese propaganda;
One should not trust the various documents written by historians and first hand eye witness accounts written by Europeans living through the massacre, which are not Chinese propaganda;
One should not even believe those Japanese soldiers still alive who participated in the massacres, who by any stretch of imagination are NOT Chinese propaganda;
But we should confidently believe in a handful of Japanese right wingers' denials?
Does anybody else see the ostrich?
Chinese-G can always deny thatA-bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
Must be Caster51's imagination.
2)there is no foreigners who watched that.eye witness accounts written by Europeans living through the massacre
A Chinese government put out the notification requested not to do the report窶敕ｭﾅ?Qﾂ湘ｳ窶ｹﾂｵ窶堙嫁?ﾃ問?堋ｵ窶堙??ｹU窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶｢ﾃｱﾂ債絶?堙ｰ窶堋ｵ窶堙遺?堋｢窶堙ｦ窶堋､窶ｹﾂ≫?堙溪?堙ｩ窶凖岩?冦窶堙ｰﾂ出窶堋ｵ窶堋ｽ
Poke-mon master said:US President Truman broadcasted on TV right after A-bomb was dropped at HIroshima and Nagasaki.
Tell me who confirmed Nanking massacure with 100,000 or 200,000 or 300,000 death? which Number is right? How did you count?
International Military Tribunal made a just report of some reporter, and didn't officialy confirmed the death number. This is cheap trick of propaganda communist always use. You only use the newspaper report you want use, and ignore the report you don't want use.
I used TV pull as a source, since I checked the way of interview methood, and fount out it is reliable. If you disagree, please bring any pull saying Asia contries hate Japan. Not like beloved "Ricecake", one friend story of Old Taiwan Mother.
I didn't say there is no civilian death during Nanking battle, because it was a war. But there is no evidence of 100,000 or 200,000 or 300,000 death which you can call it " Massacre".
Poke-mon master said:I only see the Chinise Ostrich here.
Chinise tried to use "Nanking Massacre" for Tokyo War Ciminal Court, but it was denied by United Nation proscuters, because there is no evidence to claim it it true.
Documents written by histrian and eye witteness doesn't tell any relliable number of civilian Massacre. Only many dead body killed by Chinise or Japanese.
Japanese soldiers you mentioned was not in Nanking during the Nunking Battle. His troops was not in Nanking at that time. It was found from military records and his coleagu testimony.
You shoud be confident of "Nanking Massacure" with more reliable resouse, not like Evil Chinise Communist Propaganda which is to hide a huge domestic problem from your eyes.
Or you may be communist information spy to hide huge problem from poor chinise people?
caster51 said:Chinese-G can always deny that
it is no problrm for japan.....
1) there is no pics that is proven.
2)there is no foreigners who watched that.
they just heard that
3)propagandas
WHAT WAR MEANS....ﾅ?Oﾂ坂?伉人窶禿堙｡ﾃ鞘?抃窶愿ｺﾅ坦窶貼ﾂ行
ﾂ坂?倪?督ｯ窶怡窶吮??窶ｰ窶ｺﾂ静ｩ窶彖窶｢窶敖坂?伉催崢静ｩ窶彖ﾂ祥?工ﾂ催ｬﾅ?T窶牌ﾂ」1941(窶佚､窶徒ﾂ・窶怡ﾅｽjﾅ?ﾃ卍焦?窶伉?)
according this , Nanking incident ﾂ静ｩ窶彖ﾂ鞘?倪?堙??堋ｵ窶堙??｢ﾃ陳集ﾋ?ｳﾂ催ｼ
ﾂ坂?伉催崢静ｩ窶彖ﾂ祥?祥??卍ｷ窶肋窶ｹ窶｢窶昶?吮?堙娯?ｰﾃｱ窶?窶ｹLﾂ『窶肋窶ｹ窶｢窶昶?卩ｽﾂｩ窶彖(ﾂ湘｣ﾂ集)ﾂ』
we(KTM) paid Harold John Timperley money to make writing two books about nanking incident as propaganda.
Chiang Kai-shek denied massacre
interestng one....
http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20060807-00000002-scn-cn
A Chinese government put out the notification requested not to do the report
cheated for the damage situation.
it is their cunture?
Mikawa Ossan said:[
I believe what I would say is to be skeptical, ESPECIALLY if your source is a translation.
I never said this. I said to be skeptical of E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E Please read more carefully and refrain from making such huge leaps in logic.
Read my posts better. I don't outright deny anything. I just just don't blindly accept anything, either.
Poke-mon master said:Let me tell you how Japan find out how many people was dead by A-Bomb. Fortunatoly, WWII is ended few days after A-Bomb was dropped at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, so there is time to count deth body by Authorities. And Also, Death count using regident registration was effective tool. Like US, people living in the every town is registered in Japan, and registration is recorded at Autholity like city office. So City of Hiroshima and Nagasaki knew how many people actualy lived here and there. Therefore, after A-Bomb was dropped, city autholity was able to find out how many people was actualy dead or not.
Then, you have to tell me how you know the number of death at you called " Nanking Massacre"? And also, tell me how you know the dead body is actualy civilian, not soldire. Also, tell me he or she is killed by Japanese, not chinise.
So far, I never heard or read logical explanation of number of death, and Imperial army killed 300,000 chinise civilians. For your refarence, Old Japanese soldire you mentioned, was found that his troops was not in Nanking battle from the record of military. His coleagues testified it.
I fed up with your no evidenced false claim. You should talk with evidence and reliable sorce, not wiht communist funded propagand.
.killing and events such as "窶｢Sﾂ人ﾅｽa窶堙ｨ" were detailed in JAPANESE NEWSPAPERS of the time such as 窶愬停?ｹﾅｾ窶愿ｺ窶愿ｺﾂ新窶｢ﾂｷ and 窶佚･ﾂ催｣窶突??愿ｺﾂ新窶｢ﾂｷ with graphical details and PHOTOGRAPHs, all by JAPANESE JOURNALISTS. Now tell me these are all communist funded propaganda
ﾂ?椎津ｼﾋ?､窶｢q窶督ｾﾂ渉ｭﾋ?鯛?堙戸?｢ﾂ鞘?伉≫?
窶ｰﾃ､窶堙坂?弖窶冢ﾂ神窶督ｾ窶堙可青ｾ窶堙青 窶｢ﾃ溪?板ｸﾂ住窶督ｯ窶堙ｰﾅｽEﾅ?Q窶堋ｹ窶堙ｩ窶堋ｱ窶堙??堙坂?牢窶漏窶堙遺?堋ｵ
窶愿ｬ窶ｹﾅｾ窶ｹsﾅｽE窶懌┐窶堙個催溪?堙坂?牢窶漏窶堋?窶堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｹ窶堙ｱﾂ。ﾅｽ竄ｬ窶堙坂?弖窶督ｽ窶堙遺?堙ｨ窶堙?ｽv窶堙
窶愿ｺ窶怒窶冕ﾅｽq窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙??板ｧ窶拮窶堙俄?吮??ﾂ坂?倪?堙娯?忱窶堙俄?堙遺?堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ 窶漏窶堙ｪ窶堙??堙?ﾂ
ﾂ債ｰ窶堙坂?佚･窶敖ｪﾂ州ﾂ（窶堋ｨ窶堋ｨ窶堙｢窶堋ｵ窶堙慊、窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾂ）窶堙俄?ｹA窶堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｷ窶ｰﾃ､窶堋ｪﾅｽ竄ｬ窶堙ｰ窶堙?窶堙や?堙
窶吮??ﾂ坂?伉抗ﾂ静ｭ窶敖ｪ窶扼窶堙娯?ｹﾃｪ窶掖窶堙戸?｢ﾂ債ｦ窶板ｬ窶堙ｪ窶ｹﾅｽ窶堙ｨﾂ 窶愿ｺ窶ｰﾃ伉親窶榔窶愬停?芭窶｢ﾂｽﾋ彗窶堙戸?ｶ窶堙
窶堙遺?堙ｪ窶堙芝ｽﾃ個静寂?堙??堙遺?堙ｨﾂ幸窶堙絶?堙??堋ｷﾂ。窶吮??ﾂ坂?倪?堙娯?｢ﾂｱ窶慊ｬ窶堙ｰ窶ｹF窶堙ｩﾂ 窶愿ｺ窶怒窶堙固?ﾂｸ窶慊ｬ窶堙ｰ窶ｹF窶堙ｩ
ﾂ 窶弖ﾂ皇窶｢ﾃ??ｰﾂｺ窶毒督催篠 窶愿ｺ窶怒窶毒督催篠 窶吮??ﾂ坂?倪?毒督催篠 ﾅｽ竄ｬ窶堋ｵ窶堙?津ｬﾂ坂?倪?堙娯?ｹS窶堙??堙遺?堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。ﾂ」
ﾂ?停?禿ｬ窶彡窶ｹBﾂ渉ｭﾋ?鯛?堙戸?｢ﾂ鞘?伉≫?
窶愿ｬ窶ｹﾅｾ窶ｹsﾅｽEﾅｽ窶毒陳鞘?堙個催溪?督ｼ窶堙債静｢窶佚寂?堙俄?堋ｨﾅｽﾃｳ窶堋ｯ窶堙??堋ｫ窶堙懌?堋ｹ窶堙ｱﾂ。窶堋ｨ窶冉窶堙ｨ窶堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。
ﾂ（窶吮??窶板ｪﾂ）
窶ｰﾃ､ﾂ々窶堙固ｽ竄ｬ窶堋ｪ窶吮??ﾂ坂?倪?堙??愿ｺ窶怒窶堙固ｾﾂｶ窶堙??堙遺?堙ｨ
窶板ｼﾂ坂?倪?堙娯?凖ｱﾅ暖窶堙??堙遺?堙ｨﾂ、
窶愬停?芭窶｢ﾂｽﾋ彗窶堙個人窶卩停?堙??堙遺?堙ｨﾂ、
窶堙絶?堋｢窶堙??堙債青｢ﾅ?E窶｢ﾂｽﾋ彗窶堋ｪ窶愬ｾ窶藩??堋ｷ窶堙ｩ窶堋ｱ窶堙??堙ｰﾅ?ﾃｬ窶堙披?堙?窶堙娯?堙??堋?窶堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。
窶ｰﾂｽ窶伉ｲ窶ｰﾃ､ﾂ々窶堙固ｽ竄ｬ窶堙ｰﾅ陳｢ﾅｽ竄ｬﾂ、窶很ﾅｽ竄ｬ窶堋ｽ窶堙ｧ窶堋ｵ窶堙溪?堙遺?堋｢窶罵ﾂ、窶堋ｱ窶堙ｪ窶堋ｾ窶堋ｯ窶堙ｰ窶ｹFﾅ?ﾃｨ窶况窶堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。
窶吮??ﾂ坂?倪?毒督催
窶愿ｺ窶怒窶毒督催
窶弖ﾂ皇窶｢ﾃ??ｰﾂｺ窶毒督催纂/QUOTE]
No, you didn't mention "translation" anywhere in your post. I was just thinking about everyone else who might read it when I wrote that. In other words, it was meant as a general observation at the same time it was a reply to you. Sorry for the confusion!inkink said:Mikawa-san,
Did I mention "translation" anywhere in my post?
I agree with you, in general, that one should accept information with a critical eye.
inkink said:official documents endorsed by the US government to you is just "a report".