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Why Other Countries Hate Japan

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I judge war criminals, I don't judge a whole nation
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you dont know about japan well.
those ppl who are called war criminals were not like hittler.
they were elected by diet and ppls.
in case of Tojo , He was dismissed by diet july 1944
http://english.ohmynews.com/ArticleView/article_view.asp?no=244047&rel_no=1
they were just japanses representatives of War time.
If I can say,They are responsible that Japan lost a war.
However, the responsibility of the war cannot be pressed against them alone like germany.
The mass communication and the people were crazy about the war at that time, too.
it is very easy to do like german.
 
Thank you, Poke-mon master,

Before WWII I met nice Japanese (in Indonesia), my father had been to Japan several times, after the war I have met nice Japanese, I have visited Japan in 2000 and I have two Japanese lady friends.
Only during the war, I hardly met nice Japanese, but then we only saw the campkeepers. Today of course I understand that the soldiers only followed up the orders they received. Such is life.

But I would be so happy when the next Japanese government will clear and loudly say: "We chose the wrong side during World War Two, that was a big mistake".
If I am not mistaken, I believe that Japan hestitated a long time before they broke their friendship with England and then became confederate with Germany and Italy. Tell me when I am wrong please, because I like to know the real history and also from all sides. The more we know about what went wrong the better so that it will never happen again.

I can see that there are many intelligent young people from many different countries on this Forum! Glad I found you and happy to learn from you.
 
Elizebeth, just out of pure curiosity, were you around durring the Japanese pacific war? Sometimes I read your posts and I got that impression, were you a child durring Japanese occupation?.

I wouldnt ask a lady her age since that is rude, but, I get the impression you must be quite experience in life so to say.

Anyway forgive me if I'm wrong, I just always wondered about that little niggling point of curiosity.

No doubt I am wrong and have made an fool of myself.
 
Hello nurizeko,

No you are not wrong at all, I was a teenager of almost 15 years old when the Japanese landed on Java where I lived.
Everybody may ask my age, because that is not something I have to be ashamed off. So here goes, I am 79 years old!! I'm the eldest of you all.
A bit less than two years ago I started a website about my youth in Indonesia, about the Japanese occupation and some of the years after the war when we (my mother two younger sisters and I) had to go to the Netherlands. I haven't finished my website yet, because I will also write about my one month stay in Indonesia in 1996 and my visit to Japan in 2000.
My website is: www.dutch-east-indies.com

Greetings from Holland to Scotland.
 
Japanese government will clear and loudly say: "We chose the wrong side during World War Two, that was a big mistake".
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Hi Elizabeth
japan made an article 9
do you know what is that mean?.....

I think we can not judge them by today's value.
japan made a selection. then there is a result.
the selection that japan took were always reasonable at that time.
however result was unpleasant
the thing we must learn is not a result
if so, we should just study just phenomenon as a result. that is,just ronology
so. war is always ugly.. everybody knows..
and its result will be also ugly.

i think the most important thing is why it was happend.
and what is the origin of that?...so on.
sequence of result and cause are always linked.
I think that picking the bud of the cause of the war is necessary with understanding the cause

for example, japan started war.
at least ,there was a reason for japanses rights at that time.
then why did japan start the War? because.......
now we understand why japan started war.
this reason was legitimate at that time. and that is surely japanese history
however opponent call it beautification or glorification.
 
Poke-mon master said:
.... I presented TV and BBC Poll, you presented Nanking, I questioned about it, and you can close the discussion. I thought I finaly get the precise number of death in Nanking, but it is not big issue as you mentioned....
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Pokemon, when you started questioning the statistical method used in Nanking massacre death toll, I already wrote how it was done. In your apparent failure to read my post, I wrote for a second time how the number was produced.

When you argued resident record is the more accurate method and used Katrina for an example, I told you how Katrina number is actually produced and how resident record is an unreliable method. From yoru Katrina example it is obvious you would rather rely on YOUR IMAGINATION than research to justify your argument.

When you question the legality of the Tribunal I told you the tribunal is a court instead of a news paper. Then you claim Tojo is not a criminal even though the Tribunal clearly sentenced him as such and executed him as such.

Then you start defending his motivations for leading Japan into a devastating war. At the same time, you argue he should not be held responsible for leading Japan into a devastating war. Obviously you are determined to defend the devil at the cost of being self-contradictary.

When you cannot find any more excuse to deny the number itself you stopped questioning the number itself but started questioning whether the number should be solely attributed to japanese army. From your words you are strongly insinuating the Chinese army is also to blame for killing Chinese civilians.

Please, read these words: You are implying the Chinese army is to blame for killing vast number of Chinese civilians during a Japanese invasion.

Is there anything more blatantly shameless?

Yes, that is the gap between you and me. The system is not just an abstract concept. It's always easy and comfortable to blame an abstract concept, such that you can understand, excuse, sympathize and defend the real peoples' evil motivations that manifested as the system. Why bear a moral burden when you could always point fingers at an abstract system?

Once the burnden is gone, of course you would have no qualms about idolizing Tojo & company, about defending their names and justifying their motivations. Of course you could emotionally and logically understand why the nation of imperial japan acted as their accomplice, admired their crimes and deplored their executions.

Tojo and a few others may be heroes in your eyes, but make no mistake about it: In the eyes of people except the Japanese right wing, the history of Tojo and the imperial japan has been written, and TOjo is the devil who led the evil empire.

Sad thing is, I've seen quite a few Japanese IDs here defending not just Tojo's name, but imperial Japan's motivations for initiating the war.
Until you guys grow up and look at history as what it is, Japan is not that far from its imperial past.
 
To summarize caster51:

Japan's killings and atrocities in WWII are not important, since we need to study why it happened.

So why did it happen? Yes, Tojo started the war but he should not be held responsible since he represented Japan. Yes, Japan started the war but there were reasons and Japan had rights.

So in conclusion Japan was justified and legitimate. To the millions dead and traumatized innocent victims such as you Elizabeth, sorry but hey, Japan was legitimate and justified, and NOBODY IS RESPONSIBLE.

Now Elizabeth, you should understand why killing and raping people in their own homes, experimenting biological weapons on live Asians, widespread use of biological weapons, starving people in labor camps on their own land, separating babies from their mother, daughters from their father, forcing women to prostitute in the japanese army, chopping off innocent people's head in the hundreds and thousand, burying people alive in masse, burning people alive in masse..... are all unpleasant but acceptable, justifiable, understandable, sorry but un-important, to Japanese of the imperial past and the LDP present:

Because Japan was legitimate and justified.

And no japanese, Tojo or otherwise, is responsible.

If this is what Japanese history book teaches, then the Japanese history book is teaching devil worshipping.

Caster, is Tojo's skull secretly hidden somewhere in your closet? You start to smell like him now...

 
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Anyone ,who hates a whole country is totally racist and should just be ignored
 
Now here is a classic example of someone who hates a whole nation.

godppgo said:
....If you dig a little more into Chinese history, you will find that Chinese people are more than capable of committing human atrocities than any other nation ever existed in this world....
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After having had a look at your homepage I would fully understand if you did feel hatred. Your father died because of the treatment of the japanese troops in the camps and you experienced youg Dutch women beeing draged off the be raped by japanese soldiers. However, you elevate yourself above that. You, maybe because of your age and wisdom, can see that not all japanese are bad just because there were once soldiers who did awfull things. I would wish that some of the young and agressive writers in this forum could lears something from you.

It is very important that eyewitnesses like you record their experiences, so that the rest of us can learn, thanks!
 

This is a clarification on Japanese people in general supported the war in China,Japan's population is also to blamed for the war crimes commited then.
 
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Elizabeth,

Diary of Ann Frank was one of my all time favorite books in my adolescent years,your nationality reminded me of this righteous-minded Dutch heroine Miep and her husband life-risking in hiding a small group of Jewish families from Nazi's death campaign against Euro-Jewry in WW 2.

Have you and other known European survivors of Japanese occupation in the Dutch East Indies ever thought of writing a publish memoir on those years of horrors base on personal eyewitnessed accounts ? It would enlighten future generations,they can witness the actual details of Japanese war crimes by reading in words.
 
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inkink said:
Pokemon, when you started questioning the statistical method used in Nanking massacre death toll, I already wrote how it was done. In your apparent failure to read my post, I wrote for a second time how the number was produced.
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Thanks for writing for me. I think there is little misunderstanding about my writing. It may be because of my bad English.

I wish you undestand my purpose of writing. I am writing this not to make you angree, but to let you understand My thinking.


This is you wrote.


So, I asked this.


You never give me the number though. If you have the number, please let me know.
If you don't know exact number, It is fine for me, since it's not bigger issue than how to stop this.

Also you said,

inkink said:
When you question the legality of the Tribunal I told you the tribunal is a court instead of a news paper.
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And I said



But you didn't respond for it. You may not read my post though.
Also you said,

inkink said:
Then you claim Tojo is not a criminal even though the Tribunal clearly sentenced him as such and executed him as such.
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But I said

Poke-mon master said:
You may be anger about it, but I don't think Tojo is criminal under the Domestic law and International law. I accept Tribunal Judgments since the damage and death is HUGE, and Japanese leaders had to take responsibility by thier lives.
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Yes, Tojo and other Class A Criminals are "Guilty" with "Crime against Peace" by the International Tribunal judgment. As I wrote, I agree they are responsible for it. But In Japan Domestic law and International Law, there was no "Crime against Peace" before WWII.


Also you said,

inkink said:
When you cannot find any more excuse to deny the number itself you stopped questioning the number itself but started questioning whether the number should be solely attributed to Japanese army.
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You didn't give me the exact number yet. You gave me very fuzzy number like 100,000 and 200,000. And I did not stop questioning the number itself.

Also I asked whether the number should be solely attributed to Japanese army, because you wrote;

inkink said:
Are you sure there wasn't a mass exodus from the area after the explosion? How did you count the number of people who simply left? Or committed suicide? Or died of other disease and hunger? Or criminal violence?
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I asked just same thing you asked me.

inkink said:
From your words you are strongly insinuating the Chinese army is also to blame for killing Chinese civilians.
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Did I said that? I just asked you asked me here. I know there was a continuous battle between Communist party and National Party, and Civilians who supporting each party also targeted and killed by both party. But I don't think there is such time during Nanking Battle.

You said;

inkink said:
Please, read these words: You are implying the Chinese army is to blame for killing vast number of Chinese civilians during a Japanese invasion.
Is there anything more blatantly shameless?
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Again, I didn't said that. Especially, During Nanking Battle which is the topics we are talking about. Please stop blame me for anything I didn't say.

Also you said,

There are always bad people. I blame Japanese War time leaders include Tojo, but I think blaming Tojo is not the solution to stop the war, or not to initiate the war. I think National System which we can pick right national leaders, and free access to the information to moniter its activities, and function to eliminate the leaders if leaders go to wrong direction, and good education so that majority of people can make a good decision. This is why I don't want to blame just Tojo, but also ﾂ"Systemsﾂ".




I hate Tojo. Tojo broke many domestic Law, send many troops to deadly battle field without any support, didn't protect Japanese or other civilians, so responsible for many lives and destroying people's life. But I don't think one or small number of people can start this kind of massive war, also national system should be the one which should not allow to do that.

You wrote "Imperial Japan's Motivation", but there was many people belong to "Imperial Japan", and there are good and bad motivation to start war.

It's like Communist Party and National Party started war after WWII, like a Communist China and North Korea started war against South Korea and US, like a Communist china invade Vietnam, and like Communist China started War against Tibet. There is always good and bad motivation to start war.

But more important thing is that we need to stop the war or not to start war. We need the systems we can stop the war. Since ﾂ"Good or Bad ﾂ" is the matter of the side which you are on.
 
First, as a one of Japanese, I am very much hesitated war crime done by Japanese Army.

But I think everyone can blame about war crime by many countries forever. Even we limit the time range in 20th and 21st century, many countries had war or colonizing with military power, and some of the crime which is described by inkink, was reported many time. Of course Many countries blame Japan, Vietnam blame US and China, even Indonesia blame Netherlander for colonization. ( Sorry, Elizabeth)
Even, recently, US Soldiers were arrested because of war crime in the Iraq, or UN peace keeping Operation soldiers were arrested for raping civilians.

I think many of us agree that this kind of crime is responsible by each person, not the race or nation. So Criminals must be arrested and punished. (Regarding WWII criminals of Japan, more than 1000 were executed, and tens of thousand were put in Jail.)

Every year, Japanese Prime Minister made comments to apologize victims of WWII. Although China and Korea does not recognize it since Prime Minister Koizumi visit Yasukuni Shrine, I don't think visiting Yasukuni Shrine erase all the effort Japan has been done to show refraction about WWII.

Regarding Education, I think Japan can improve. I know there is big debate like we do here, but Japanese government must teach war crime against civilians, and wrong choice which Japanese war time leaders made. Also, We need to teach premature national system and level of Japanese people which could not stop the war.

I think every country had a bad memory and bad mistake which is hard to teach and inherit, but teaching good things and bad things is both absolutory necessary for nation's good future.
 

Thank you, too. I appreciate your patience and I am aware my writing has been too emotional from time to time. Some of the posts here by Japanese IDs also make my blood boil but ultimately they help us exchange opinions and understand each other.

Poke-mon master said:
You never give me the number though. If you have the number, please let me know. If you don't know exact number, It is fine for me, since it's not bigger issue than how to stop this.
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You keep pressing for an "exact number", then you tell me it's no big issue.

From my perspective your intention is to create the perception that I do not have the "exact number", and since I do not have the "exact number" the whole Nanking massacre must be "communist propaganda" I accepted blindly without verification.

Allow me to shed some light on "exact number". I wrote in one previous post that any death count in such large scale population loss can be only a "statistic" or "estimate". A "statistic" means you establish a statistical method/protocol then produce an estimate with your best effort.

Statistically speaking it's impossible to know the so called "exact number" ( or true value ) in Hiroshima or Nagasaki either, since one cannot go backward in time, and we have established through a long discussion that counting resident records is a ridiculous method. That being said, it does NOT mean you cannot produce a statistic with a level of confidence, as what the Japanese government did in this case.

I have applied your logic to the Hiroshima and Nagasaki death count and asked if you could produce the kind of "exact number" that you demand from me. Since based on your logic, the Hiroshima and Nagasaki a-bombs must be sheer fabrications if the death count is not an "exact number" and each individual case precisely established. You evaded that question by saying "exactly what I want to say about Nanking". Obviously you either believe Hiroshima and Nagasaki are fabricated stories, or failed to understand the question.



Now it's my turn to be confused.... Not really!

On one hand you claim the total death count in Nanking should not be attributed to Japanese army killings. On the other hand you claim Communists and KMT were killing civilians during their civil war battles. So obviously you are saying at least part of the vast Nanking death toll should be attributed to Chinese army on either the Communist or the KMT side, right?

In 1937 the Communists were in the northwest of China thousands of miles away from Nanking. Nanking at the time was China's Capital city, KMT's political and economical center.

Again, without a basic understanding of the situation in Nanking 1937, you would rather rely on YOUR IMMAGINATION to create battles between Communists and KMT in the Nanking area, then use it to support your argument, exactly as you did in the Katrina example. That seems to be a pattern for you: instead of forming an opinion based on research and evidence, you would rather create imaginary evidence to support the argument you believe in unconditionally.


Now finally a good start.

I don't believe, though, that there is a causal relationship between a nation's domestic democratic system and its behaviors exhibited externally. But that's another topic and I'll not troll this thread.

Poke-mon master said:
It's like Communist Party and National Party started war after WWII, like a Communist China and North Korea started war against South Korea and US, like a Communist china invade Vietnam, and like Communist China started War against Tibet.
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When you talk about WWII with a Japanese right wing, his/her arguments are un-surprisingly predictable, like, cloned. One has to simply wait to hear "Tibet, Communist", etc, etc. Simply put, trolling. Makes me wonder where are they cloned from. Here's an idea: how about Japanese history text books?

Since you have repeatedly demonstrated your lack of perspective on anything historical, I'll not honor your trolling by correcting your political slogans such as "china invade vietnam", "china start war against tibet". For a history 101 I recommend you start with wikipedia and google. If you are interested to have serious discussions about these topics then open another thread.

Let me ask this question though, which has been asked in different forms by different people at least 3 times in this thread:

Do China's own problems, real or perceived, elevate Japan by even one millimeter in its moral standing on its war aggressions and atrocities?
 
Nothing one country does makes anouther look better, unless, of course, a person is biased on their views.
 


Hi Han Chan,

Thanks a lot for reading my website.
But luckily I wasn't raped, I stood in the line to be taken away and be used by the Japanese military, but I just had a malaria attack, so I was lucky that day. But others weren't, I know of one young Dutch woman who commited suiced after the war, she was pregnant from a Japanese soldier, and she couldn't look her husband in the eyes when he came back to her and their little daughter, she felt guilty and dirty, she just couldn't go on with her life.
My father was killed by the Kempeitai in a Kempeitai prison in Malang on Java, Indonesia.
I am very much my father's daughter, I never judge a country, there are so many nice people in our world you will find them in every country, but you will never read about them in the newspapers.

Thank you for your very kind words!!
 

Hello kirby36,

Yes I know many people from the former Dutch East Indies, and several books have been written by some of us, mostly in Dutch and sometimes in English. These books are only read by the Dutch from the former D.E.I the others are not interested.
It was my son's idea to start a website in English, even while my English is far from perfect. A website goes all over the world, and does not only stay in the Netherlands.
When I have finished my site, I will write it all again in Dutch (in Word not on a second site) and send it to the Tropical Museum in Amsterdam, they can use it for highschools in the Netherlands. I love to reach the young people if I can.

Thank you very much for your interest!
 
Dear inkink:
I am sometime too emotional, so please don't worry.
It is OK that you don't have exact number.
You said State of Louisiana counting bodies, and number is ,as you said,
inkink said:
The official hurricane Katrina death count (1577) published by Louisiana Department of Health and Hospital is made by counting bodies. ﾂ
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this is the exact number I expect from you, since you said "This is fundamentally the same method as that used by the state of Louisiana: By counting bodies."
You said bodies were counted in Nanking like Luisiana, but you don't have exact number although State of Louisiana has a exact number of 1577???
Although you don't have exact number, it will not affect the fact which Japanese imperial army soldier killed innocent civilian in Nanking. I don't know how many, but even one murder of innocent civilians by them was enough number to blame them. One live may be small number, but it is so precious to his or her family, and of course non exchangeable. It is a ugly crime by shamefull soldier.
One advise I want to give you is that you should not use 100,000 or 200,000 or whatever number you don't know. Since if you use the number of no evidence, it will ruin your story, makes it looks like propaganda.
inkink said:
In 1937 the Communists were in the northwest of China thousands of miles away from Nanking. Nanking at the time was China's Capital city, KMT's political and economical center.ﾂ ﾂ ﾂ
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I think I confuse you. I didn't mean Communists and National party is in the battle at Nanking. I mean Communist party and National party kill the civilians, but not in Nanking.
inkink said:
Do China's own problems, real or perceived, elevate Japan by even one millimeter in its moral standing on its war aggressions and atrocities?ﾂ
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No, it is nor China's own problem, nether elevating Japan's moral standing.
Now a day, global world is so connected closely, and so starting war or any risk factor which affect global world, is big issue to many countries. So, UN security counsel has been debating, for like Israel and Lebanon war, and for like North Korea.
But reason why I pointed out war started by China is not for blaming. I just want to point out there is always reason to start war, but talking if it is good or bad is useless, since it is up to which side you are on.
We should spend our precious time to talk about how to stop the war, or how to not start the war.
 
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So you require the Chinese government in 1937, under a full-scale Japanese invasion, to have the same level of statistical capability that the US government possesses in 2005, which is a (relatively) peaceful time, in the most technologically advanced society man has ever seen.

Plus, the population loss induced in Nanking is roughly 100 times of the Katrina population loss. Yet, you demand a number with the same level of precision.

And all that make ME look biased and propagandist?

Does anybody else see the hypocrisy here?

 
Yes, Pokemon-san. It's more productive to focus on practical issues than talking about polls.

And don't forget the east China sea sovereignty issue, which I believe is the most difficult "real/practical" (I quote these words since for China Japan and Korea, the line between practical and historical issues is not that clearly marked unlike in western mentality) issue confronted by the two government. I don't imagine a full-scale war will break out over the fossil fuels but military clashes do look like a possibility, as have been reported by media in both Japan and China.

In this area the Koizumi administration has shown a very arrogant and provocative stance. It occupied the heavily disputed Diaoyu Island with military force. It keeps make threats regarding ChunXiao oil/gas excavation project, which even by Koizumi administration's claim is undisputably in Chinese waters. On the other hand, Koizumi & Co. keeps using FUD to propagandize animosity towards China, actively purchasing advanced weapon systems, and at the same time pointing to China as a (IMAGINED) military threat.

It should be noted that China's current and the last administrations have both shown tremendous flexibility in resolving territorial disputes. Since 1998 China has settle a series of border disputes with neighboring countries including Russia, and is currently actively working with India to resolve legacy issues.

Japan, though, has consistently displayed a very un-cooperative attitude. Koizumi's government didn't hesitate much to occupy Diaoyu Island militarily. Tokyo governer ﾂ静芝陳ｴ ﾂ慎窶伉ｾﾋ弸 even personally landed on the heavily disputed 邃｢t鸟ﾂ湘 to make a hardline political statement. How does all this help promote peace?

 
Poke-mon master said:
First, as a one of Japanese, I am very much hesitated war crime done by Japanese Army.
Click to expand...

Obviously,you and a handful of volunteered surrogates of Japan's right-wing denier political establishment didn't hesitate to dispute many WW 2 historic facts acknowledged by world historians and academia circles.
 
~

Elizabeth van Kampen said:
I haven't finished my website yet, because I will also write about my one month stay in Indonesia in 1996 and my visit to Japan in 2000.
My website is: www.dutch-east-indies.com
Greetings from Holland to Scotland.
Click to expand...
Good website~ .Happy to see that there are many photo and picture there . I have read the story ,It is real ,so it is more valuable.
Waiting your new update.
 

Nanking Massacre has been widely recycled in free Chinese-dominated societies like Hong Kong,Taiwan,and Singapore, PRC has no sole ownership to this historic news event from WW 2.

Tokyo has a population of dirt poor Japanese collect empty tin cans and scavenge trash for a living,plus there are many homeless encamped at city parks and road overpasses.
 
Nanking Massacre has been widely recycled in free Chinese-dominated societies like Hong Kong,Taiwan,and Singapore, PRC has no sole ownership to this historic news event from WW 2.
Click to expand...

Baseless rumor??
 
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