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Why Other Countries Hate Japan

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inkink said:
In US, there is nothing equivalent to the japanese's "regident registration". Driver license is the primary ID document. Obviously you don't know much about what's not on japanese TV.
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If you don't have Driver License, you can have regident registration as an ID. so Police can find out how many people live in which building, house, or apartment. So, US government can find out how many people is dead in New Orleans after haricane attacked that area. As you can see, I am not talking about US regident registration system, but how to count the number of death after A-Bomb.

Now, it is your turn to tell me how 100,000 or 200,000 or 300,000 or whatever people was dead at " Nanking Massacre". You keep changing the topics, and never answer my question. Don't you have logical answer?


So far, you didn't answer to my question, although I gave answer to your questions.

There are many reports, website, books, news paper, and historians who said there is "Nanking Massacure, with 100,000 or 200,000 or 300,000 or whatever killed people". But none of those show me the logical answer to the questions I asked you. How to count the number of death? How did you know all of them are killed by Japanese army? How did you know all of them are civilians not Chinise military? I wished you can, but you alwasy change the topics and try not to answer.

I said those as Chinise Propaganda since I cannot find any other reason why these books insists "Nanking Massacre without logical evidence."
I am willing to accept fact and truth, not false and propaganda.
If you have the answer for my question, I am more than happy to hear.

In the end, I regret that Japan imperial Army invaded China during WWII. Japan just wanted to secure Japan from Russia who has been invading to North east China and Korea peninsula. After Japan-Russia war, Japan should have worked better with China to secure North-East china to push back rossia from there. However, Japanese government cannot control the Imperial militaly, and cannot stop them fignt against China.
 
inkink said:
Interesting to note that, I DID NOT even mention the Japanese soldiers' name and you already know where "his troops" were at that time.
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Since this soldier is so famos about this, it is very easy to point out.


Ok, so you think there is no "Nanking Massacre" like A-Bomb? Are you saiyng that you don't know the dead body which was found in Nanking is killed by Japanese or Chinise? I didn't know you want to deny it.

It is true that Japanese Samuri cannot win the Communist China about the number of murder. No one in Japanese history cannot win against Mao who killed 30 million chinise people during the Great Cultural Revolution and 窶佚･窶禿ｴﾂ進.
 
Poke-mon, it's getting harder and harder to take you seriously. Your utmost ignorance about anything outside TV is almost entertaining.

So japan's then prime minister Hideki Tojo, along with 6 other jap army generals and the foreign minister were sentenced to death and executed ALL BY A NEWSPAPER?

FYI, the Far East International Military Tribunal is neither a news paper, nor a speech. It is a court. The Chief Prosecutor was US diplomat Joseph Keenan. Other Prosecutors and Judges came from governments and military of all major allied countries including China, US, Australia, UK, France, Australia. As such the tribunal's sentences are legal documents in all the allied countries. If you lack the basic capability to tell a court of law from a newspaper, only a pokemon would know how screwed up your concept of "free speech" is.

I don't know if I am a typical Chinese, since the Chinese are a very diverse people.

But I certainly hope typical Japanese people are not as pathetically ignorant as you seem to be.

 
I see. Sorry about the confusion. Thanks for clarifying. I agree with your observation in principle.

 
A JUST UPLIFT of WAR. And yet you wonder why you are hated by many.

ﾅ津ｼﾋ?､窶｢q窶督ｾ and 窶禿ｬ窶彡窶ｹB were not honorable soldiers. To civilized people, they were savages who had no regard for unarmed civilians' lives. They each killed over 200 innocent civilians by chopping off their heads with knives in two days. They killed not for self-defence, not for military purposes, but for sport.

While their army superiors encouraged and approved.

While Japanese people back home pleasantly read about their sportsmanship.

And caster-san you defend their savagery as a JUST UPLIFET of WAR, showing me their will, full of sympathy, but totally oblivious of their hundreds of innocent victims who died violently for no reason but being there, in their own home, in their own city.

I have a hard time believing this is happening.

caster51 said:
.
heve you read their last will?
that was a just uplift of War.
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The thing is that every country, no matter how big or small, has things in it's history than bring people to look unkindly on to it. Slavery, wars, massacres, and bad laws or governing parties. But at some point you've got to let it go, I mean, America is in some deep crud right now just having Bush for president, he's already gotten us in some big trouble, and we can't really do a thing about it.
 
You are making wild guesses here about things you have no clue about.

The official hurricane Katrina death count (1577) published by Louisiana Department of Health and Hospital is made by counting bodies.

As of now, only around half of New Orleans's original residents have returns to New Orleans. Based on your method of counting resident registration then, the official death count then should be about 50% of New Orlean's original population, which should be well above 200,000, which is obviously rubbish.

Even with all the US government's technological might, it's still impossible to obtain a death count by simply counting resident registrations, since you CANNOT attribute all the difference in numbers to one source. This is a statistical common sense understood by, say, many typical Chinese.

Now if you want to talk about logic, how do you know the difference in pre and post a-bomb population is all due to the a-bomb? Did you track all of them down? How up-to-date or accureate was the pre-explosion population count? How accurate was the post-explosion count? Did everybody in Nagasaki, right after the explosion, immediately report to yoru government for a head count? Are you sure there wasn't a mass exodus from the area after the explosion? How did you count the number of people who simply left? Or committed suicide? Or died of other disease and hunger? Or criminal violence?

Come back to the death count of Nanking, I have already stated, if you could start reading and stop pretending to overlook, is produced largely by records kept by philanthropy groups who buried the bodies. The number has also been corroborated by later excavations of the mass graves. This is fundamentally the same method as that used by the state of Louisiana: By counting bodies. Compared to your insane guesses, this is by far a more reliable, if not overly conservative method.

Pokemon, it's been difficult to debate with you on a logical level, since you are simply unwilling to accept logic or reality. You call an international military tribunal a "news paper", you call your own news papers, japanese as well as international history community "communist propaganda", you make wild yet obviously illogical guesses about topics you obviously have no idea about and use them as facts to support your argument.

Yet, you demand logic.

What happened in Nanking is difficult for any Chinese to talk about, even today. Usually I avoid discussions/debates such as this one has been since it doesn't seem to produce anything positive. Personally I strongly dislike any gory details about violence and killings. I believe if we as humans focus all our beings on the darkness of the past we are simply placing a dark curse on our children.

I, as well as most other Chinese, have no interest to get into any conflict with Japan. We simply want to build a better and secure home, a prosperous and open society for the children of today and tomorrow. I personally have a few Japanese friends, at least two of them named Shibata. I have known them to be reasonable and lovely people. I want China's future generations to no longer bear a collective emotional scar of the japanese invasion. Last year I was debating some of my right-wing compatriots on a CHinese forum who were spreading rumors regarding japanese. I want China, Japan, north and south Koreas to be friendly neighbors that share a prosperous economy, a peaceful region and similar value systems based in our similar cultural roots.

To accomplish all this though, we need to properly treat history as what it is, and learn from the past mistakes. Japanese and Chinese have both demonstrated phenomenal intelligence and potentials, I am sure we should be smart enough to figure out what our grandparents couldn't. To be able to face one's past is the sign of maturity and sophistication in a people.

Unfortunately, Koizumi and his political base, as well as some of you guys here, have proven Japan as a nation is not yet ready to be what Japan can be. With Japan's political leaders stubbornly insisting on worshipping class A war criminals, with some of you guys calling japan's war atrocities "JUST UPLIFT of WAR", with japanese right wing nuts continuously denying its war past and scratching the painful historical scars in the Chinese and Koreans collective memory, and yet wondering at the same time why they are hated, it makes one doubt what is Japan's future.

In George W. Bush's words: So much talents, so much promise, but to what end?

 
Actually they still are not 100% sure how many people died in Katrina because of all the missing people reports. Would you add in all the people who died after Katrina but as a result of Katrina in the final death total?
 
Very true.

The practical problem though is not what our ancestors did in history, but how WE view our history TODAY. How we treat history tells more about US then about our ancestors.

America has made the painful but necessary step to liberate itself from its unpleasant past of slavery, racism, anti-semitism, McCarthyism, etc. Even today the FBI still has open investigations into racist killings and KKK atrocities in the 60's. Germany has made the painful but necessary step to face its past of Nazism and racial cleansing. Neither Americans nor Germans shun the unpleasant history in their nation's past. Intead they study it, reflect on what went wrong and put in systems to prevent Nietzsche's eternal recurrence.

This is how we as humans progress. This is why I believe maybe one day human beings will be smart enough to resolve our struggles for resources with science instead of violence, with negotiation instead of invasion.

How about Japan? Koizumi regularly visits the shrine to worship class A war criminals executed by the International Military Tribunal. Instead of saying "let's not dwell on the past but focus on the future", some of the japanese here tell me "The Past DID NOT Happen".

 
Hoo boy, I often agree, the Japanese have short memories, but maybe it is time to give this a rest. I don't see the right wingers in the LDP giving China much of anything soon, and sadly I see some of the younger citizens have bought into their logic. Strangely, no one complains too loudly about the fake Japanese docuements, since most of the Japanese docuements were destroyed, yes?!
 
gaijinalways said:
Strangely,no one complains too loudly about the fake Japanese docuements, since most of the Japanese documents were destroyed, yes !
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Last days of WW 2,Japanese military personnel were busily shredding documents as American troops marched toward victory.

I can share couple references to Japan's WW 2 war crimes,The Knights of Bushido written by Lord Russell of Liverpool and 2005 BBC program Horrors in the East.
 
Well, it's not a complete 'ignore the past' type of thing, it's more like that saying, "You cannot see the forest for all the trees". Instead of trying to focus on good or bad you have to look at everything, see what's happened, realise how it affects today and how it will affect tomorrow. And yes a lot of counties have more bad to look back on and dig through than others, but it's a thing that has got to be done.
 
That's why in both natural disasters and massacres, death count is only a "statistic", or "estimate". As such you have to esetablish a statistical method, or protocol.

In the case of Katrina, the state of Louisiana essentially did a body count for a period of time, then closed the count permanently. That is, even if they found more bodies in flooded homes, they would not count them in the official death toll.

In the case of Nanking massacre, the death toll is estimated by adding up the body count in burial records from primarily two philanthropy societies (both Buddhist organizations).

sadie_sue said:
Actually they still are not 100% sure how many people died in Katrina because of all the missing people reports. Would you add in all the people who died after Katrina but as a result of Katrina in the final death total?
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The other night I watched Hamaz training very young children (5 ~ 6) with essentially an Islamic brainwash on TV. Guess what came to mind?

In my mind, not as a Chinese but as a human being, we are cursing our children if we continue stupidity like this.

Considering Japan has been openly concerned about China's growing nationalism, Koizumi's provocative stance on the shrine and war history has been extremely perplexing. If he's worried about Chinese nationalism, why does he HELP FUEL it ? Media in both countries has predicted an "inevitable military conflict" between China and Japan. I hope this does not become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 
Some people resort to topic switching and irrelevant mumbling when they run out of logic and points.

It's a sign of moral weakness.


 
And some people talk loudly when they want people to think they are smart.
 


I think you are very close to the point I want to make. I want to say same things about Nanking issue.


OK, you are telling right things. To fix the number of death, counting the dead body is much more reliable than guessing the number from pre & post insident. I agree with you.

So, by couting dead body, Do you know exact numbers Chinise government found at Nanking? How many number of body did philanthropy groups bury?
Please let me know the number, not like 100,000 or 200,000.

Also, please tell me how do you know the cause of death of each people, and who killed them if it is the case.


inkink said:
You call an international military tribunal a "news paper",
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I am sorry for my misunderstanding. I thought it as "International Tribune". However, still this report include the number of death was sent to the court, this report is not took into as evidence to proscute war crime, since there is no verification.


Well. I should have been more polite with Chinese people when talking about this kind of issue.

Today is the day A-bomb was dropped at Nagasaki, and killed many civilian instantly, and sufferting much more lator. I know That kind of scar stays very long among the left family and nation, and how Chinese people felt about Nanking issue.

When Nanking city was in the battle, I think there was many confusion and caos, and fighting between Japanese and Chinese military caused death of many civilians. There was a report from Japanese army saying they excuted Chinese spy who did not ware army uniform, and there may be civilians too. (From current standard, it is not accepeted at all, but it was typical fact every countries doing to excute spy at that time. )

I accept there was civilian death during the battle, and killing civilians by confused Japanese military. But I cannot believe there was "massacure of 100,000 or 200,000" untill I have the answer to the question I asked you.
Nevertheless, I felt guilty about Japanese army's wrong practice in Nanking though.

inkink said:
I, as well as most other Chinese, have no interest to get into any conflict with Japan. We simply want to build a better and secure home, a prosperous and open society for the children of today and tomorrow.
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I agree 100%. But when I saw the chinise military budget growth more than 10% for long time, 2.5 million army, Nuclear misile targeting Japan, Chinese Submarin invading Japan sea teritory, I scare a littel. Japan have 180k army, and 80% of military budget is used for just salary, and decreasing for 6 years in row.



Prime Minister Koizumi always said he goes Yasukuni Shrine not for Class A was Ciminals, but for praying to commit peace.

I annualy visited Yasukuni Shrine, but also not for worshipping Class A War Crimanls, but to pray for all the Japanese people who died to protect my country.

There are some 2 or 3 million people name on the list, and there may be somebody who should not be on the list. But I go there since it is the simbolic shrine for typical people who sacrificed their life for country, not like other shrine which is worshipping some kind of old Japanese God.

You may not understand why I am doing this, but I also cannot understant you put very large Mao paintings at The tien an men square, who killed much more Chinese than Japanese military during "The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution" and "窶佚･窶禿ｴﾂ進" , but it is you and Chinese people's choice, so I do not make any complaint. I hope you and Chinese people does not make any complaint regarding Yasukuni Shrine, even you cannot understand it.
 
Dear inkink:

I almost forgot the topics. We were talking about " Why other contories hate Japan.", and show you the TV Poll and BBC Poll to tell you that Taiwan, Thai, Singapole and other's didn't hate Japan.

If you disagree, would you show me the any poll or data to tell me other SE asia coutries hate Japan in addition to Korea and China.

Thanks in advance.
 
I realize today is August 6. My condolences to the civilian victims in Nagasaki.

When a bomb explodes, or a massacre occurs, it is a tragedy, a shame and a failure for all of us, whether the victims are Chinese or Japanese, Jews or Arabs, Vietnamese or Iraqi.

On a day like this, it's kinda sad and surreal that we are discussing how many civilian deaths is acceptable or justifiable. I have made my point regarding Nanking so I am not going to engage in an infinite loop any longer.

Regarding Yasukuni, contrary to what you may think, I have no objection to the shrine itself. Those who sacrificed their lives in defence of their nation should be respected and remembered, that's what makes a bunch of people a nation.

If I were a Japanese, I would visit Yasukuni, too, IF, Yasukuni removes the class A war criminals and the many WWII weapon displays from the shrine. To me, Yasukuni symbolizes Japan's confusion about remembering fallen soldiers and worshipping the devils such as Hideki Tojo. The majority of post-war Japan being largely pacifist, it's really an eerie thing to have Hideki Tojo commemorated in the shrine. To some extent, Japanese should feel as much offended as CHinese and Koreans to see Hideki Tojo more prominentl commemorated than regular soldiers. He and a handful of others led Japan down the path of devilish destruction of both Asia and eventually Japan itself.

The analogy drawn between Mao and the shrine's war criminals misses the fundamental point: Mao did not lead an invasion into Japan. Mao did not initiate a massacre or a bomb campaign in Tokyo. What did or did not happen during the cultural revolution or the great leap is a Chinese internal affair and as such has nothing to do with Japan. So why and what would you complain about Mao's picture in Tiananmen?

Regarding Chinese military spending, even you have to admit it's still only a fraction of Japan's current military spending, isn't it? When Japan's self-proclaimed self-defence force boasts Asia's most advanced naval and air force arsenal, including aegis, patriots, TMD, F15s and now actively pursued F22s, when Japan aggressively occupies disputed islands with military force despite numerous diplomatic talks and civilian demonstrations by mainland Chinese as well as Taiwanese and Hong Kongers, isn't it hypocritical for Japan to accuse China for increasing military spending? China has never initiated any military aggression against Japan in the long history of the two nations, while Japan has invaded China several times in the last two centuries and caused one of the largest population loss man has ever seen, shouldn't that make Chinese more scared about Japan than the other way around? It's OK that you don't understand why we DO OR DO NOT idolize Mao. But it amazes me how Japan can honestly claim to be threatened or victimized by China. We have a saying in China: The burglar is the first one to call burglary. Maybe that explains it.

 
Dude, let me help you a little here. The topic of this thread is "Why other countries hate Japan", and that's what I have been trying to explain: war atrocities, and more importantly the denial of them by the Koizumi administration and the political right-wingers.

Plus, I have a strong distaste, one might even say despise, for TV polls.
Let me do comment on WHETHER we Chinese hate Japan, though. The answer is NO. We like Japanese culture, food, electronics and cars, movies and the traditions. We are largely impressed with Japanese's pursuit of precision. Interestingly we even model some of our social infrastructures after Japan, such as the dual functionality of the postal system as a national bank. I have visited Tokyo and was impressed with the authenticity of Chinese food I could find there. Many of the people around me love ﾂ静ｬ窶兌ﾂ康ﾂ青ｬ and 窶伉ｺﾂ湘｣ﾂ春树ﾂ，as well as ﾂ青ｼﾂ湘ｩﾂ秀树. Some of my generation grew up with The Atomic Boy and Ranma.

What we do hate, again, is japan's war past, and much more importantly those right wing nuts who deny it. In Japan's largely pacifist population, they have become the most vocal political minority who hijacked the political agenda. Until they stop the provocative hawkish stance and start showing good will towards it neighbors, it's hard for us to trust Japan as a neighbor of benign intentions, and a partner in the long term.

 
inkink said:
I realize today is August 6. My condolences to the civilian victims in Nagasaki. ﾂ
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I appreciate your condolences. It is so nice.


inkink said:
When a bomb explodes, or a massacre occurs, it is a tragedy, a shame and a failure for all of us, whether the victims are Chinese or Japanese, Jews or Arabs, Vietnamese or Iraqi.
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You are right. but please don't forget about The tibetan person too.

inkink said:
On a day like this, it's kinda sad and surreal that we are discussing how many civilian deaths is acceptable or justifiable. I have made my point regarding Nanking so I am not going to engage in an infinite loop any longer.
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It is fine form me. I presented TV and BBC Poll, you presented Nanking, I questioned about it, and you can close the discussion. I thought I finaly get the precise number of death in Nanking, but it is not big issue as you mentioned. We should stop talk about past, but act together for our children future, which is no A-bomb or Massacre at any where in the world.



I understand your point, and undestand you cannot belive that Japanese put Tojo's name on the name list of war soldiers.

I have been reseaching why and how did Japan get into the deadly and hopeless war which heavly dameging not only China, Korea, and other S-E
Asia countories, but also Japan itself.

You may be angree about it, but I don't think Tojo is ciminal under the Domestic law and International law. I accept Tribunal Judgement since the damage and death is HUGE, and Japanese leaders had to take responsibility by thier lives.

I think that real cause which leading Japan into this WWII, is in the Japanese Government system, Japanese matuality, and Japanese society. Pre-WWII, there were very limited speech of freedam, respecting human rights include foreigners, fair education, functional justice, and national strategy to live with international sciety.

I think this is the gap between you and me. You think Tojo is the cause of millions people death, and I think pre-WWII Japan system is the cause. You may be right, or I may be right. I have to research more about pre-WWII Japan goverment system and Japanese society.

inkink said:
Regarding Chinese military spending, even you have to admit it's still only a fraction of Japan's current military spending, isn't it?
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For your information, According to "The International Institute for Strategic Studies" in UK, China's actual military spending in 2004 was 84.3 billion dollars, and Japan was 44.3 billion dollars. But it is not the point. China scares Japan since it looks like Japan did not reflect WWII, and Japan scares China since 2.5 million army and hundreds nuclear missile targeting to Japan. It will not end scaring each other.

Important thing is understanding each other. China has to stop teaching children and citizen about WWII Japan militalism, insted teaching how Japan changed its country to contribute asia and world peace. Japan also has to teach children and citizen what was wrong with pre WWII Japan, and what China contributes asia and world peace.

inkink said:
We have a saying in China: The burglar is the first one to call burglary. Maybe that explains it.ﾂ
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That's very interesting. So when you got burglary, how will you call help?
 
The topic was "Why other countries hate Japan"

The other countries are China and Korea? And maybe the old Europeans and Americans who once lived in the Far East, had colonies in Asia?

I am one of those who grew up in Indonesia, former Netherlands East Indies. In 1942 Japan occupied that country, the Dutch POWs were put into camps and just a little later all the civilians Dutch men, women and children) were also put into camps, many of us died of hunger. The Japanese hated the Dutch people, the Dutch people went through a hell for 3½ year.
I was almost 15 years old when the Japanese troops landed on Java, I have seen and suffered far too much to tell in this Japanese Forum.
But nevertheles my young age at that time, I have always seen the difference between good and bad people, whether one is Japanese, Dutch, Chinese or Russian.
I judge war criminals, I don't judge a whole nation.
I know that most horrible things happen during wars, but what I don't like from the Japanese governments that they are still minimizing the crimes commited by the military, or war criminals, during World War Two. You can't keep on calling war crimes just "incidents".
I was one of the Dutch war victims living in Indonesia during the Japanese occupation. I can tell you that the Japanese army and the Kempeitai have hurt me into the deepest of my soul. But I have always been honest and never ever blamed all Japanese people for what happened to my family.
 
ﾂ

After WWII, There were more than 5000 Japanese war ciminals arrested, and more than 1000 criminals were excuted. I hope anyone who commited war crime and hurted you, got appropriate punishment.
 
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