What would the world be like if Japan didn't lose the war

[JerseyBoy]

I heard Japanese hit Pearl Harbor to destroy the American naval force which covered the Pacific, as there has been some types of embargo to prevent supplies from getting into Japan from overseas. I believe that was a military tactic during the time of pre-WWII.

During that time, I was told the Japanese government was interested in conquering the Asia Pacific, not North America.

This is an interesting thread as there is so many different potential scenarios if Japan destroyed that entire US Pacific fleet during that first attack (as there was only part of the fleet docked at that time). That might have changed the course of the history........

 

[caster51]

It was delayed that Japan certainly did the declaration of war.
However, Usa did not.
how about flying tiger?....
how about 3 hours before Pearl Harbor....
USA sank a submarine of Japan outsaid of US water Territory

 

[Sensuikan San]

I don't feel that Japan either wanted, or felt herself capable of ﾂ"taking overﾂ" America.

A few, rather optimistic, totally indoctrinated Japanese might have felt that it was possible, but I do not think that that was a general conception or even desire among the average, educated Japanese of the time.

That they were pretty ﾂ"pissed offﾂ" with the US and wanted to teach them a lesson is undeniable. In this, they were successful. For a time.
That they wanted to eliminate American strength from the Pacific and strengthen their own power in that theatre is undeniable. In this ﾂ… they were not successful. They could have been for a short time ﾂ… but never in the long haul. They got unlucky on the first day of their commitment ﾂ…. At Pearl Harbor! They failed their main goal on day one! And knew it! They didn't hit the carriers!

Nagumo screwed up. He didn't launch a third wave of attack!
Even the planner for the Pearl Harbor attack was well cognizant of this, and remarked upon it at the time ﾂ… after many comments of caution that well preceded the actual raid.

Yamamoto Isoroku was no fool!

Even the invasion of the Aleutians was a half-hearted affair, the main aim (IMO) being useful for propaganda purposes only. Little loss of life, little commitment of resources – but being able to say you had ﾂ"landed on American territoryﾂ". It also scared the crap out of a lot of people in the Pacific Northwest, and did call upon some redirection of forces and resources in that area. But in the big scheme of things ﾂ…. ﾂ"Bush-leagueﾂ"!
It was connived and contrived. But it was swallowed hook line and sinker, I'm sure, by many folks in Japan.

Hitler was much more of a threat to the World than Japan. The possibility of him succeeding in taking over Europe – at least as far as the Urals, was far more likely than Japanese troops marching down Pennsylvania Avenue.

Because he wanted to!

Japan never wanted to march down Pennsylvania Avenue!

They just wanted to keep America from thwarting their domination of the Pacific theaterﾂ…

But they misjudged America's resolve. They misjudged its size and capabilities. And they got unlucky on December 7th 1941.

Just as Hitler misjudged Russia's resolve, its size and capabilities, and got unlucky by misjudging what Winter was all about in 1942 ﾂ…ﾂ…..

You have to be careful if you want to rule the world ﾂ…ﾂ…ﾂ…ﾂ…..

ﾆ淡ﾆ停?｡ﾆ停?

 

[Sensuikan San]

It was delayed that Japan certainly did the declaration of war.

This is true, and rather unfortunate for Japan. Among other things, it would appear that heavy traffic in Washington, coupled with a rather slow translation process did delay the formal declaration. I must confess that I have always had the greatest sympathy for the gentlemen who presented the bad news. I believe theywere also close friends of the American Secretary of State, Cordell Hull. I guess he felt pretty bad about it too.

However, Usa did not.

With respect, I don't believe that a raid on Kure or Kobe was planned at that time ... but I may be wrong.

how about flying tiger?....

The "Flying Tigers" were a totally independant group of (mostly if not totally) civilian volunteers who chose to fight for the Chinese Air Force.Rather like the "International Brigades" in Spain. They had nothing to do with, and were not in the service of the United States government.

how about 3 hours before Pearl Harbor....
USA sank a submarine of Japan outsaid of US water Territory

The midget submarine in question, I cannot vouch for its actual location, but may have been well within US territorial waters. It was certainly regarded as being in a "restricted zone" - which would have been well known at the time.
Its "carrier" (I believe it might have been the I-26 ... ?) was indeed outside US territory ... but that was not the boat sunk by the USS Ward.

Try this link for the battle report from USS Ward. December 7th, 1941 ...
http://www.history.navy.mil/docs/wwii/pearl/ph97.htm

Just out of interest ... what were the two subs doing there? Was that an exercise?

ﾆ淡ﾆ停?｡ﾆ停?

 

[caster51]

Just out of interest ... what were the two subs doing there? Was that an exercise?

if there was not USA territory, that was not USA bussiness.
anyway ,many of japanese imagin 911 like that

 

[Ewok85]

No, but if I remeber correctly, a proposed invasion of Alaska as well as the US mainland was part of the long-term goals to force our surrender. If they'd have kicked us out of the Pacific, though, they'd have found themselves facing an impossible war on American soil. I honestly think the Americans of the 1940s would have fought, tooth-and-nail against a Japanese invasion. In addition, the terrain in the West would have definitely favored the defenders.
No, we would have lost political and economic control of the Pacific if Japan had won. Honestly, it is much more probable that Hitler would have wrecked the East Coast if he had won in Europe than Japan gaining a strong hold on the West Coast.

There is not one single note, memo, record or shred of evidence to say that Japan was ever interested in taking any part of America - only Asia.
Japan knew they could not beat America, their hope was to force an agreement.

It was delayed that Japan certainly did the declaration of war.
However, Usa did not.
how about flying tiger?....
how about 3 hours before Pearl Harbor....
USA sank a submarine of Japan outsaid of US water Territory

Japan did not declare war on the United States until after the attack - that was offically said by the Japanese Foreign Ministry in 1991.

The flying tigers did not even enter combat until after war had been declared on both sides, and they were not part of the military, they were all volunteers.

Sinking a submarine in self-defence is not an act of war.

 

[caster51]

The "Flying Tigers" were a totally independant group of (mostly if not totally) civilian volunteers who chose to fight for the Chinese Air Force.Rather like the "International Brigades" in Spain

.
it was merely under formality .


サービス終了のお知らせ

http://www.alibris.com/search/searc...t=p&siteID=KLVmR9fE2yU-Ii0F6rxFbameJvn23Qn20A

 

[ricecake]

The "Flying Tigers" were a totally independant group of (mostly if not totally) civilian volunteers who chose to fight for the Chinese Air Force.Rather like the "International Brigades" in Spain. They had nothing to do with, and were not in the service of the United States government.

It's partially accurate,those individuals were civilian volunteers.This one PBS program aired in the 1990's here in northern Califonia,surviving former Flying Tigers revealed it was " covert operation " funded by the pentagon/DOD behind the scenes.

 

[caster51]

サービス終了のお知らせ

ﾅ津吮?廃ﾂ湘ｰﾅ陳渉、窶ｹﾃ寂?督ｱﾅ?ﾃ??板昶?佚個青ｧ窶堋ｪ窶｢s窶敕ｵ窶堙遺?堋ｱ窶堙??堋ｪ窶ｰﾃｼ窶榔窶彑

1940窶扼窶ｰﾃ??堋ｩ窶堙ｧ12ﾅ椎ｽ8窶愿ｺ窶堙懌?堙??堙娯?慊ｬ窶堋｢窶堙債，ﾂ静ｩﾂ静ｭ窶｢zﾂ債絶?堙遺?堋ｫ窶｢ﾃ?坂?倪?堙娯?敕ｩ窶督ｧﾂ静ｭ窶侏??堙??堋?窶堙ｩ

civilian volunteers? mercenary ?
'He has crashed up three planes
in the first week'
"He has crashed up three planes" - Claire Chennault describes inept pilots

 

[GodEmperorLeto]

There is not one single note, memo, record or shred of evidence to say that Japan was ever interested in taking any part of America - only Asia.

I never said that it was to take America. I only meant that an invasion would have had the goal of forcing us into peacetalks.

civilian volunteers? mercenary ?

Essentially, yes. They were not affiliated with the U.S. military. There were American volunteers flying with the R.A.F. during the war in Europe before Pearl Harbor, but they were officially attached to the British military. That was way more official than the Flying Tigers were.

It was delayed that Japan certainly did the declaration of war.

As Sensuikan San said, it wasn't the Japanese ambassador's fault. It was supposed to be delivered 10 minutes before the bombing would have begun. However, by the time Pearl Harbor would have been placed on alert, it would have been too late anyway, and the attack would have already been well underway.

Eh. It happened. Believe it or not, I don't think most Americans really give a damn about Pearl Harbor anymore. The war ended 60 years ago. We've put it behind us.

how about 3 hours before Pearl Harbor....
USA sank a submarine of Japan outsaid of US water Territory

This is news to me. Can anyone give me a link or something in English about this? I'd like to know more about this.

Nagumo screwed up. He didn't launch a third wave of attack!
Even the planner for the Pearl Harbor attack was well cognizant of this, and remarked upon it at the time ﾂ… after many comments of caution that well preceded the actual raid.

He didn't want to endanger the third wave, and the objectives had been achieved. Two ships were sunk and eight severely damaged (if I remember correctly, I could be waaaay off). Three thousand American sailors and airmen were dead. Millions of dollars in ordinance, equipment, and vessels had been destroyed or damaged.

Not hitting the oil tank farm that was a few miles away from the harbor is where he screwed up, but that isn't so much a product of his own faults as it is the Japanese military had a very rigid command structure and mentality. An American in the 1940s would have hit the tank farm (although a modern American may not have). Read the chapter on Midway in Carnage and Culture by Victor Davis Hanson if you ever get the opportunity.

Yamamoto Isoroku was no fool!

No he wasn't. It was unfortunate (or, well, for him, maybe, it was fortunate) that he died before the war ended. He was probably the greatest military mind Japan had in the 20th century. "We have awakened a sleeping giant, and filled him with a terrible resolve."

With respect, I don't believe that a raid on Kure or Kobe was planned at that time ... but I may be wrong.

Doolittle's Raid (if that is what you are talking about) was a retaliation for Pearl Harbor. The damage we did was actually negligable, especially compared to the bombing raids held near the end of the war.

 

[caster51]

窶愿ｺ窶怒窶堋ｪﾂ降窶｢ﾅ｡窶堋ｵ窶堋ｽ窶愿ｺ窶堙可、ﾆ男ﾆ停?ｦﾂーﾆ塚?ーﾆ誰ﾂ・ﾆ耽ﾆ辰ﾆ停ぎﾆ湛窶堙債「窶伉ｾ窶｢ﾂｽ窶芭窶堙娯?抛ﾅ陳?窶堙ｰ窶ｰﾃ､窶堋ｪﾅｽﾃｨ窶堙可」窶堙??佚ｨ窶堋ｵ窶堙?、ﾅｽﾅｸ窶堙娯?堙ｦ窶堋､窶堙遺?ｹLﾅｽ窶凪?堙ｰﾂ催壺?堋ｹ窶堋ｽﾂ。 ﾂ
ﾂ
ﾂ ﾂ ﾂ「窶ｰﾃ､ﾂ々窶堙債鞘?ｰ窶堙溪?堙?馳ﾆ停?ｹﾆ椎?ﾋ?遺?藩??堙固?ﾃｨ窶転窶堙ｰ窶傳窶堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。窶堙?窶堙坂?堙｢窶伉ｾ窶｢ﾂｽ窶芭窶堙嫁ｽﾃ冷?凪?塲ｽﾃ停?堙坂?堋｢窶堙遺?堋｢ﾂ。窶堋ｱ窶堙ｪ窶堙??吮??ﾂ坂?倪?佚･窶板､窶堙姑筑ﾂーﾆ単ﾆ鍛ﾆ暖窶堙坂?ｰﾃ､ﾂ々窶堙娯?堙?窶堙娯?堙俄?堙遺?堙ｩ窶堙娯?堋ｾ

1945 Aug, 15th
New York times article.....
"The hegemony of the Pacific Ocean to my hand"
"we, American had the wish achieved for the first time since Perry .
The nuisance was gone from the Pacific Ocean at last.
The market in a Chinese continent becomes ours.

 

[caster51]

It happened. Believe it or not, I don't think most Americans really give a damn about Pearl Harbor anymore. The war ended 60 years ago. We've put it behind us

so are we
I apologize if hatred was felt.

 

[Ewok85]

I never said that it was to take America. I only meant that an invasion would have had the goal of forcing us into peacetalks.

America had all the advantages, at best they may have been able to bomb or attack america - an invasion would be impossible.

This is news to me. Can anyone give me a link or something in English about this? I'd like to know more about this.

http://www.history.navy.mil/docs/wwii/pearl/ph97.htm

The submarine was surfaced and following the a ship into the channel leading into Pearl Harbor. The area in which it was spotted was a declared defensive zone around the entrance to the harbour.
The ship announced that it was being followed and a warship, USS Wade, responded and sunk the submarine.

He didn't want to endanger the third wave, and the objectives had been achieved. Two ships were sunk and eight severely damaged (if I remember correctly, I could be waaaay off). Three thousand American sailors and airmen were dead. Millions of dollars in ordinance, equipment, and vessels had been destroyed or damaged.
Not hitting the oil tank farm that was a few miles away from the harbor is where he screwed up, but that isn't so much a product of his own faults as it is the Japanese military had a very rigid command structure and mentality. An American in the 1940s would have hit the tank farm (although a modern American may not have). Read the chapter on Midway in Carnage and Culture by Victor Davis Hanson if you ever get the opportunity.

The objective was to damage or destroy the 3 American carriers which would have had a huge impact on the effectivness of the Pacific Fleet. Next time its worth checking the intel before sending your fleet off to do such a thing, as all 3 carriers were not in Pearl Harbour, probably several days away.

Not hitting the oil farm was a huge mistake, as was not hitting the submarine pens. All they really did was destroy some battleships which practically forced America to rely on their unproven new carrier and submarines to fight the naval war. It probably helped them in shaping new strategies

 

[osias]

There is not one single note, memo, record or shred of evidence to say that Japan was ever interested in taking any part of America - only Asia.
Japan knew they could not beat America, their hope was to force an agreement.

Conquest of the US was rumored back then, but this was due to wartime propaganda, Japan didn't intend to conquer the US mainland.

The Tanaka Memorial (Japan's war planning document to take over the world!) is now known to a Chinese forgery, but the Chinese history textbooks still teach the Memorial without mentioning the forgery.
(http://www.libertytimes.com.tw/2006/new/mar/3/today-p4.htm)

If Japan had won, the US would have been out of Asia-Pacific, but Japan wouldn't have reached North America.
Tanaka Memorial - Wikipedia

The Tanaka Memorial is an alleged Japanese war planning document from 1927, in which Prime Minister Tanaka Giichi supposedly laid out for the Emperor of Japan Hirohito the strategy to take over the world. Its authenticity is still a matter of dispute, although in the broad strokes, the startegy was followed by Japan during the Sino-Japanese War and World War Two. Its strategy may be summarized by the lines (which do not appear literally in the document):
"Tanaka Memorial", New York, Chinese Student Patriotic Association of America, probably published between 1938-1941.
In order to take over the world, you need to take over China;
In order to take over China, you need to take over Manchuria (North-eastern China) and Mongolia.
If we succeed in conquering China, the rest of the Asiatic countries and the South Sea countries will fear us and surrender to us.
Then the world will realize that Eastern Asia is ours.
It was depicted by United States wartime propaganda as a sort of Japanese answer to Mein Kampf. The Battle of China, one of Frank Capra's movie series Why We Fight (given the Academy Award as a documentary), describes the Tanaka Memorial as the document that was the Japanese plan for war with the United States.
As presented in Battle of China, the four sequential steps to achieve Japan's goal of conquests are
1. Conquest of Manchuria (North-eastern China)
2. Conquest of China
3. Establishment of bases in the Pacific
4. Conquest of the United States

 

[Da Monstar]

we Would hav Ramen shops at every corner instead of a McDonald... Actually that is a pretty nice thought

 

[Ewok85]

If Japan had won, the US would have been out of Asia-Pacific, but Japan wouldn't have reached North America.

If Japan and America had come to an agreement instead of turning to war, they would have been trading partners. Japan had no way to match Americas potential to pump out ships, planes and ammunition.

They would never have won the Pacific War, it was the Americans who kept it going with the Japanese always on the defensive.

 

[osias]

we Would hav Ramen shops at every corner instead of a McDonald... Actually that is a pretty nice thought

No junk food, so kids all over the world would be more healthy.
But i like junk food..look at my avatar

 

[caster51]

everybody was forgetting the Manchukuo.
oops Manchukuo was an independent country.
http://nanamix.up.seesaa.net/image/book12.jpg
my interest is " How does this country become it?

 

[GodEmperorLeto]

1945 Aug, 15th
New York times article.....
"The hegemony of the Pacific Ocean to my hand"
"we, American had the wish achieved for the first time since Perry .
The nuisance was gone from the Pacific Ocean at last.
The market in a Chinese continent becomes ours.

I'm totally not surprised by this article. Read Dewey's War Without Mercy, if you ever get the chance. The U.S. and Japanese propaganda machines were working overtime portraying their opponents as animalistic barbarians.

I apologize if hatred was felt.

No need. The U.S. is, historically, one of the most forgiving countries in the world. We fought two wars with England, and ended up helping them against Germany twice.

America had all the advantages, at best they may have been able to bomb or attack america - an invasion would be impossible.

Hindsight is 20/20.

The ship announced that it was being followed and a warship, USS Wade, responded and sunk the submarine.

I know about that. I think caster51 was talking about a different event. He said "outside of U.S. territorial waters". Heading into Pearl Harbor is definitely within U.S. waters.

The objective was to damage or destroy the 3 American carriers which would have had a huge impact on the effectivness of the Pacific Fleet.

I'm not sure if their strategy was still reliant on battleships or not. In addition, it is argued that the absence of the carrier fleet was because higher-ups supposedly knew about the bombing and wanted to use it to give us casus belli for entering the war.

All they really did was destroy some battleships which practically forced America to rely on their unproven new carrier and submarines to fight the naval war.

Actually, aside from the two sunken ships, all of the damaged ones were repaired within a few months and thrown back into action relatively quickly.

If Japan and America had come to an agreement instead of turning to war, they would have been trading partners. Japan had no way to match Americas potential to pump out ships, planes and ammunition.

That was the whole idea behind Pearl Harbor. If they could knock us out of the war before our industrial machine started going, they could have standed a chance. Little did they know, Roosevelt had already made deals with most of the major U.S. industries, who were already revving up and producing for the war.

One of the biggest mistakes about Pearl Harbor is that there wasn't enough of a follow-up. The Pacific Fleet was (temporarily) crippled, but the Japanese were still so bogged down in the western Pacific they could only throw a few insubstantial forces against us at Wake Island and Midway.

 

[ricecake]

oops .... Manchukuo was an independent country.

Yeah .... Ooops,PUPPET STATE of foreign meddling precisely.

Ryukyu Island WAS A SOVEREIGN KINGDOM with own Royal House and NON-Japanese subjects.Does Japanese history book teach that ?

 

[Ewok85]

I know about that. I think caster51 was talking about a different event. He said "outside of U.S. territorial waters". Heading into Pearl Harbor is definitely within U.S. waters.

This was the only engagement before the Pearl Harbour bombings that I know of, and is often talked about as "America making the first move" - not like sailing your fleet thousands of miles isn't an agressive move...

I'm not sure if their strategy was still reliant on battleships or not. In addition, it is argued that the absence of the carrier fleet was because higher-ups supposedly knew about the bombing and wanted to use it to give us casus belli for entering the war.

In 1940 the battleship was still THE ship - massive firepower from its main guns ripped any other ship to shreds, covered in dozens of anti-aircraft guns and a thick armoured "belt" around the waterline made them extremely impressive weapons. Carriers on the other hand were large and lightly armed at best, big fat targets. Sometime in the 30's the USN did some wargames around Hawaii including using carriers to lauch attack planes. Observers noted that the planes were able to inflict alot of damage, but the tatic was deemed impractical as the attacking fleet would be decimated by the battleship fleet stationed at Pearl Harbour in a counter attack.

Yamamoto was aware of this and used it as the basis of the Pearl Harbour attack. The goal of the attack was to neutralise the USN Pacific Fleet so that that Japan would be able to secure and prepare defences around the oilfields in the Dutch East Indies. They estimated that destroying the 3 carriers stationed at Pearl Harbour they would buy about a year before the fleet was back to strength again.

Actually, aside from the two sunken ships, all of the damaged ones were repaired within a few months and thrown back into action relatively quickly.
That was the whole idea behind Pearl Harbor. If they could knock us out of the war before our industrial machine started going, they could have standed a chance. Little did they know, Roosevelt had already made deals with most of the major U.S. industries, who were already revving up and producing for the war.
One of the biggest mistakes about Pearl Harbor is that there wasn't enough of a follow-up. The Pacific Fleet was (temporarily) crippled, but the Japanese were still so bogged down in the western Pacific they could only throw a few insubstantial forces against us at Wake Island and Midway.

Aside from the eighteen ships sunk, 5 of which were battleships (big, expensive and take over a year to constuct), yes the damaged ships were repaired in good time.
I'll say it again, they never planned to defeat America or to invade. The idea was to stall the Pacific Fleet so they could advance their agenda unopposed or force an agreement. America wanted Japan to give back China, and all of the other territories they had taken, Japan wanted to keep it and have America acknowledge that they now owned the territory.
Roosevelt already had plans in motion to go to Europe and help their allies. America became the industrial superpower by playing the war to its advantage and selling materials to both Germany and Great Britain.

Wake Island was attacked the same day as Pearl Harbour...

Pearl Harbour was considered a huge success by all - Japan sunk 5 of the USN battleships. You don't get how big a deal this is, ever heard of the Bismark? But this was also a flaw with the IJNs way of thinking - they expected that their battleships would be the key pieces. Irony being that it was aircraft from vunerable carriers that sank the vast majority of battleships on both sides during WWII both in the Pacific and Atlantic

Midway was Pearl Harbour II - they wanted to lure out the USN carriers and finish them once and for all, cripple the American influence in the Pacific and force America to make an agreement that was favourable to the Japanese, and we all know how badly that was arsed up
(Midway was won thanks to superior intel on the American side, the Japanese fleet was superior is everyway to the Americans apart from that)

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

Ryukyu Island WAS A SOVEREIGN KINGDOM,does Japanese history book teach that ?

In a word, yes.

 

[cursore]

What would the world be like if Japan didn't lose the war?

Europe and European Russia would be Nazi… Italian civil war would have lasted for decades, no Palestinian conflict.

But what about the development of nuclear weapons? And their use?

O mamma….

 

[osias]

Yeah .... Ooops,PUPPET STATE of foreign meddling precisely.
Ryukyu Island WAS A SOVEREIGN KINGDOM with own Royal House and NON-Japanese subjects.,does Japanese history book teach that ?

What to do about a racist, exclusionary Japan, & why?
It's kind of off-topic, but annexation was a norm back then, China's invasion of Tibet is blamed because it happened after the wave of decolonization. Following ww2, the right to self-determination was granted to newly independent former western colonies. Self-determination was actually a new concept particularly for Asians and Africans.

Ryukyu and Tibet are not a good comparison. Too bad that China was a little too late..

 

[Ewok85]

What would the world be like if Japan didn't lose the war?
Europe and European Russia would be Naziﾂ… Italian civil war would have lasted for decades, no Palestinian conflict.
But what about the development of nuclear weapons? And their use?
O mammaﾂ….

The European War would have turned out the same - Britain, America and Russia would have taken Berlin and ended the war. Its only Asia that would have felt an impact.