U.S. Forces in Japan: time to say good-bye?

No, masoyama, as a matter of fact I haven't read the Bushido because of course it isn't a written code. At least, nobody wrote it down until relatively recently, after the decline of the samurai and it became a subject of historical interest. But as Mandylion says, perhaps this is too big a topic to be discussing in a thread that really has nothing to do with bushido.

The contradictions in your statement are bizarre. You seem to be saying that only foreigners who happen to agree with you are allowed to make any comment on Japanese society because, of course, only you are wise enough to understand Japanese honor. Am I mistaken here? Or are you willing to allow a humble civilian like myself to dare to speak his mind?

Have you ever lived in Japan? I am only asking because you write like someone who has read a lot of books about the samurai and yet has absolutely no clue about what modern Japanese society is actually like. Of course, nationalism and fascism aren't always the same things. But the FACT of modern Japanese society is that the right wing nationalists are some of the most outwardly racist, hateful, ignorant people around. The guys in black trucks with loudspeakers are not like Germany's neo-nazis. They are much more powerful, have a lot of money and are politically connected.

Your saying that nationalism is the answer to pork barrel politics is about the most naive thing I've ever heard. Prefectural governments, especially those in rural areas, rely on government handouts to keep their economies afloat. They aren't just going to voluntarily throw half of their constituents out of work just because some jackass in Tokyo tells them 'its good for the emporer' or something. And presumably if we were living in your militaristic utopia all the money being spent building highways would just go towards building missiles, which is in itself just another form of government pork that would go to whichever prefecture had the best political connections.

And talking about clan affiliations is ridiculously out of touch. This is the 21st century, not the 16th. Very few people care about that anymore. Its like saying that you should organize American society into Irish, Scottish, British and German regiments based on where people immigrated from.

Your question about whether I would fight to defend Japan doesn't make any sense either. For starters, nobody is attacking or about to attack Japan. Secondly, they don't allow foreigners into the JSDF. Thirdly, I couldn't just start fighting on my own because I don't have a gun nor do I know where I could obtain one. But, hypothetically speaking, if Godzilla and his lizard army invaded Japan tommorow and overwhelmed the SDF and the government started giving everyone, including foreigners, guns then YES, I would be willing to fight for Japan's defense.

Why would it be out of touch for clan affilitaions to arrise. Many Japanese do keep their Mon or Kannon of their families and from some of the JGSDF that I have talked to, they think that that is a good idea. (I am an US military officer stationed here in Korea and spend my 4 day weekends regularly in Japan). Hell the corporations is already the replacement for clans (Mitsubishi for example?). And you acknowledgement of organizing our regiments based on European regiments is laughable. In the US army we already have regimental affiliations and for us we get people who have their grandparents who fought in World War II who come to our organizational day (1-22 Infantry was the first to hit Normandy and we still have veterans from World War II who come during Veteran's Day). Now if the Japanese don't really care for their samurai tradition, then why are many films are about samurai? Last one I seen was Zatoichi (played by Kitano "Beat" Takeshi). Hmm....

Your post of relying of government handouts is simply welfare. In fact Japan I know for a fact is even tearing down dams because they are unnecessary, or the guy working in construction whose only job is to wave a flag. What you seem to advocate is a welfare state. Welfare states fail (does the Soviet Union ring a bell, how about North Korea, China? well lets just say that with their economic reforms you really can't say that they are a welfare state). I endorse a workfare state. Japan's economy is still weak because of weak banks and their refusal or rather slow to change proposed by Koizumi. Government handouts is not the answer. Welfare in the US only people that won't work and live off of government handouts. Hmm..... So guess what we changed many welfare programs in many states and guess what we didn't get mass starvation now did we. No significant reduction of population in America. No.... we got them to WORK and FIND JOBS.

And for me it is not militarism that I advocate but rather civil duty. Much like Robert Heinlein's ideal. Citizens that don't contribute to federal service in any way will take their freedoms for granted. Hell I believe that here in America we should all do some kind of federal service to gain citizenship. That is honor. In South Korea where military service is mandatory for males there is significantly less crime than in the US.

Also you are WRONG about Bushido not being written down recently. Budo Shoshinshu (often translated as "Code of the Warrior," it might also be called "A Primer on [the] Japanese Martial Arts") is a book written by Daidoji Yuzan Taira no Shigesuke was written and discussed during the middle to late Edo period (1603 - 1867). But this forum is not a topic on Bushido.

And instead of Godzilla how about an attack by Al Qaida or North Korea? I remember how recently about something from Al Qaida disrupting the Nikkei over a supposed threat. Hmm.... I can tell you right now that in South Korea we are already beginning the withdrawal of US ground troops (7000 in fact) as the beginning of the eventual drawdown to focus on Iraq and Afghanistan. Want more details, go to the Washington Times and read about it. Eventually Japan will need to have their Army for them to defend themselves, we won't be in Japan forever.

I also find is so ironic that you don't like my posts because of what I say. Fine you don't have to like them as I don't have to like yours. That is FREEDOM. You can say whatever you like as do I. You can say how you like to as well do I. Don't be thin-skinned about it. If you think that I am just a crazy guy in this forum. Then fine to you I am. I am only writing what I think you can't censor what I have to say and neither can I censor yours. FREEEEEEEDOMMMMM!!!!!

Yes, that is right, the Japanese are interested in movies about the Samurai. But that doesn't mean that they want to have their society run by a bunch of samurai again. They are interested in movies about talking robots too, so what?

Of course my my example of American regiments being organized on European heritage was laughable. IT was supposed to be! It would make as much sense as having Japan revert to some sort of clan based system of social organization. The corporation, as you say, is about the highest organization to which most regular Japanese give their loyalty to, and it is not likely to change any time soon.

About government handouts, nowhere did I say that they are a good thing. My point was that your idea that nationalism would wipe all the government pork away is ridiculous. I'd be really happy if they stopped building all these useless dams and highways, but it isn't going to happen! I know its a waste of money. But there hasn't been any change in this situation, as you seem to think. To date they have torn down 1 single dam in all of Japan! Contrast that to the plans to build over 500 new dams and you'll get the picture. And don't hold up the US as some sort of grand ideal for Japan to be following here, it is just as much a welfare state as Japan is. I see the president just yesterday signed a 400 billion plus dollar defence budget. A good chunk of that government money is just plain old pork designed to keep the aerospace industry (which would die without government contracts) afloat. Or how about that 3 buck a gallon gas the government is buying from Halliburton? The US uses its defence industry to stimulate its economy in the exact same way Japan uses its construction ministry.

And what if Al Qaida attacks Japan? What would you have me personally do? Your question was "will you fight for Japan's defence?" What am I supposed to do if Al Quaida or North Korea attacks? I'm a civilian, I'm not allowed in the army here. And Japan already has an army, it spends more on defence than almost every other country in the world, including China.

And of course it is what you say that I dislike about your posts. What else is there to like/dislike on a message board? Don't worry, I'm not trying to take away your freedom or anything. You can have all the freedom you want. Go ahead, take it. I won't stop you.

Nationalism could force the Japanese to suck up and sacrifice for their greater good. It was nationalism in America during World War II that got many Americans to give up many luxuries and everyday commodities. Gas, Meat, Rubber, etc., were all rationed. Women volunteered to work in factories for minimal wages knowing that the US military needed all the revenues to fund the war effort. Young men volunteered for military service as their patriotic duty. With Nationalism in China, old state-run enterprises eventually failed to profit compared to new economic developed eastern coastal cities, all of which were privatized. But did those Chinese cry and yell at Beijing. No, they knew that the trends in their country is changing and have moved with the times. These state-run companies no longer exist, and though painful, they moved to other jobs, many now in the private sector.

And it is because of pork-barrel politics that Japan's banks refuse to reform and pertain to dams put two of them on the same river (Nibutani Dam in Hokkaido, for example). However, remember with Japanese Nationalism, they have done something that has never been repeated in history (well, maybe except modern China), they went from a feudalistic era to a modernized industrial nation and regional power all in the span of a concise amount of time. It was the Meiji Era. Even after World War II, Nationalism brought many of their veterans to return to rebuild Japan (Harp of Burma). They can change history has proven them to be capable of it, but it only happened during nationalist fervour times. Oh, by the way, since you don't believe that pork-barrel hurts their economy more than it helps read this.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_42/b3854090_mz015.htm

Obviously, you don't read too well either. The regiments in America are based on regional and historic regiments that existed in AMERICA. Reread my script for the 22nd Infantry Regiment (whose motto is "First at Normandy"). Even the US Marines are based on regimental affiliation going back to 1775. Japan can, too, and I was only talking about their military.

Also, defence spending is not the only significant factor in a military. Try training, tactics, experience, patriotism. Hmm..... in Vietnam, we dropped more bombs than in all of World War II, and we still didn't beat them. Why? They were better infantryman and developed tactics to negate our technological advantage. But more importantly, the NVA saw their home being invaded by foreign powers, first French, then the US. And in the end, the NVA won out. Nationalism can do that.

As for the $400 billion defence budget.... try this..... 100 Boeing refuelling aircraft was purchased why... because our logistics tail goes back to the US. I can remember sitting in Iraq waiting for repair parts but guess what we didn't get anything for 45 days. Why? Because everything we get is sent via AMC (Air Mobility Command), whose cargo aircraft must stop to refuel in Europe but send in some refuelers from Bahrain and Kuwait and guess what NON-STOP flight from back in the states. Also, we are getting pay increases of 4% taking about $70 billion right there. Plus, veterans benefits and research and development. Remember that we were still in the restructuring phase when Sept 11 occurred. In fact, we had this great artillery howitzer called the Crusader built by United Defense that would increase the rate of fire, extend the range of fire, need fewer people to operate, require less of these artillery pieces than the current Paladin system. Generals liked it, battle commanders liked it, and even field artillery soldiers wanted it, but guess what we killed it because it was too expensive. We needed that money to finish our restructure and fight the war on terror. And despite lobbying by United Defense and regional production states, we still killed it. But they got over it. Also, a ballistic missile defence shield that I know Japan would be interested in since North Korea seems to be able to shoot missiles over Japan's air space was put into the budget as well. Oh, by the way, there is this cost of Iraqi reconstruction we got to consider as well. Finally, the US has stopped using gasoline for 12 years and now run our vehicles on JP-8, known to many as diesel fuel, since it cost less, has more horsepower, and more fuel-efficient than gasoline. What knowledge of military affairs do you have?

Hmmm.....

And as for talking robots, I remember something about Honda making a robot shaped like a human. In fact, there seemed to be a lot of robots being built to do such tasks. Hmmm......

Ah...well, if you are just talking about the Japanese military then I guess that organizing the regiments by some sort of clan based system might make sense, I really have no idea. I thought you meant organizing Japanese society as a whole on such a system, which seemed bizarre.

I agree that pork barrel politics are a major, maybe the biggest, problem in Japan these days. I thought I had made that clear in my last post. Every time I pass through another mountain valley that has been completely covered in concrete for no apparent reason it makes me sick to my stomach. I don't really think an appeal to nationalism is going to do anything to alleviate the problem though. In my opinion, nationalism is part of that problem. Remember that the people running Japan today are effectively operating under the same mindset that the people running Japan during the Meiji and post war era's had. The nation's number one priority to them is increasing industrial output and everything else is subordinate to that one goal. Its like Japan is still trying to catch up to the west, even though in many ways it is technologically and financially far more powerful than most western countries. The mindset hasn't changed.

Now those Meiji government planners could convince the people of the need to undergo hardships through various nationalistic appeals. If they wanted to knock down someone's home to build a highway (this happened to my in-laws) they could just say it was for the good of the nation and no one would oppose them.

But now its the 21st century and the government is still locked in the mindset that everyone must live these spartan lives and sacrifice their own quality of life for the good of the nation. In the US, if the government wanted to tear down hundreds of homes in order to build some useless highway overpass or airport runway, people would get pissed off, take to the streets and probably take a few shots at whichever politician was responsible. In Japan, to a certain extent, the government can just impose on everyone's sense of national duty and get them to give up their homes, even if there isn't any concrete benefit to be had for them to do so.

There have been a few exceptions to this rule. When they started taking over farmer's land to build Narita airport it sparked massive riots which delayed completion by several years. Narita was a pure piece of government pork, its been handicapped by problems ever since it opened. But if the people had the sense of nationalistic 'civil duty' you espouse, the government would have built it without a peep of protest by appealing to their 'national pride' or whatever and would have then felt free to build a million more like it too.

By and large though, it is in some part thanks to Japanese people's unquestioning patriotism that most of these pork barrel projects are allowed to pass without any protest. It is a little known fact outside of Japan that the quality of life for most people here is in fact quite low. It is sort of ironic. Everyone is rich, but the type of luxuries that westerners take for granted simply aren't available here. By luxuries, I mean things like decent housing, attractive cities, clean beaches, nice parks and the million and one other things that contribute to people's enjoyment of life. The reality is that people here live in tiny concrete box apartments stuffed into overcrowded, overpolluted, noisy grey cities. There are a few reasons for this, but in my opinion one of the big ones is that few people are ever willing to rock the boat and tell the arse hole politicians that this is not a satisfactory way for them to be living. And why don't they complain? Because they live in a society where sacrifice for the good of the state is seen as one of the highest moral obligations of each citizen.



About the military, I really know nothing. I spent 4 years in the Canadian army as a radio operator, but I seem to recall that most of my army time was spent doing make work projects like sweeping parade squares and that sort of thing. No heroic combat experience to be bragging about, I'm afraid!

I don't really understand the fascination with robots myself. That Honda robot, which must have cost millions to desing and build, doesn't really do anything special except greet people by their first name, which is all it can remember. Doesn't strike me as being very impressive.

U.S. Forces in Japan: time to say good-bye?

As a answer to that question I think YES!
Because those US Forces have been in Japan for a TOO LONG TIME.
It's time for Japan to be responsible for it's own safety and protect itself and help internationally. Also Japan needs to be of military importance in Asia to for example help create stability and safety together with other countries in Asia and East Asia. South-Korea, China and Japan can then together help each other if for example North-Korea does anything bad.
It's really stupid to be dependent for almost everything regarding military power on the US. It's time to be more able to do things yourself instead of relying on a other country that is not even in the region. I hope such a thing will happen in the near future.

Good bye U.S Forces in Japan.

Originally posted by Eisuke
U.S. Forces in Japan: time to say good-bye?

As a answer to that question I think YES!
Because those US Forces have been in Japan for a TOO LONG TIME.
It's time for Japan to be responsible for it's own safety and protect itself and help internationally. Also Japan needs to be of military importance in Asia to for example help create stability and safety together with other countries in Asia and East Asia. South-Korea, China and Japan can then together help each other if for example North-Korea does anything bad.
It's really stupid to be dependent for almost everything regarding military power on the US. It's time to be more able to do things yourself instead of relying on a other country that is not even in the region. I hope such a thing will happen in the near future.

Good bye U.S Forces in Japan.

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Right now, China don't want any part of creating stability or improve nation's relationship with Japan. Just like before they have biteral relationship about japanese empire back in WW2. And by the way, they feel superior than Japan since China has biggest army, biggest labor in Asia.

That may be so, however I was talking about the near future not right now.

Originally posted by Eisuke
That may be so, however I was talking about the near future not right now.

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There will be no North Korea to worry about in future.... and more likely china would start WW3 in future more likely rather than making a good relationship with other countries.

My Thoughts

Ok...My thoughts.
I feel that the USA should have some trups in Japan, only if Japan has troups in the USA. Yes...the us and NK. are not good friends...but...that's the only reason to have ppl over there. But not as many as we do...maybe...ad unit or two.(around 100-1000) men at the MOST! And as I said before...as long as Japan has the same amount of guys/girls over in the USA.

that is how I feel....

The US military will not leave that base. For a great number of reasons. Mostly political.

Do they not like it? To bad. You have the same problems with your OWN military bases, We do with ours here. Accidents happen. You try to force the US to back out and it will turn into a BIG HUGE deal because both japan and americas media will blow it all out of porportions and america is QUICK to over react on what the media says and become very aggresive. This combined with way the japanese would react would just make the thing goto hell in a hand basket.

On another note, Wasn't the US granted that land with no restrictions after WW2? If I am right we are even allowed to store nuclear weapons on it.

Also, Does japan need our military help? No not at all. do we need them to help our military? No not at all...

Did we need Canada the aussies or the brits to help us in iraq? No not at all.

Stuff like this is not for military reasons, its the principle of the thing. If they are not willing to help us, Are they really an allie? If they want us to remove our forces from a base near them or within the area of influance they have what does that tell us?

Any ways eaither it will not happen "Most likely" or it will and we will have a VERY good chance that it gets all blown out of porportions bye the media and then we will end up with a WW 3.

Go ahead and let the US pull out of Japan. I guarantee you that Asia will fall into chaos. Not just because of Communist China, or North Korea's Nuke capability, but because that's what Global Terrorism is about...chaos where the US and it's allies are the weakest. Right now, Islamic Extremists want nothing more than another Islamic State. They really want Great Britain. They also want the Philipines. They will go wherever the US and our allies are weakest, because that's where they can make the biggest statement. That's why they've largely stayed out of Asia...because of a strong US presence.

We're in World War 3! What's it gonna take for you people to realize that? What will it take for those of you who think that the US is the Great Satan? Is it going to have to take another 9/11 in Japan? I hope not.

I think it's okay if US troops stay in Okinawa until they are not necessary anymore then they must go.
Also the US troops shouldn't move to any other place in Japan. They can stay in Okinawa and if they want to go to a other place in Japan then they should leave Japan and build a new base elsewhere outside of Japan.

I think it's okay if US troops stay in Okinawa until they are not necessary anymore then they must go.
Also the US troops shouldn't move to any other place in Japan. They can stay in Okinawa and if they want to go to a other place in Japan then they should leave Japan and build a new base elsewhere outside of Japan.

Feral-Darkness said:

On another note, Wasn't the US granted that land with no restrictions after WW2? If I am right we are even allowed to store nuclear weapons on it.

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The US occupied Japan for 7 years after WW2 and Okinawa for more than 20 years during which time there were no restrictions on them. But after Japan became an independent country and, later, after Okinawa reverted back to Japanese control the actions of US military forces fell under the status of forces agreement between Washington and Tokyo which does place restrictions on the use of US military facilities in Japan, including the prohibition of nuclear weapons.



As for the rest, I'm thinking the US troops will probably be gone or at least greatly reduced in numbers before too long. This Iraq war is a pretty heavy burden on troop numbers and they can't really afford to have tens of thousands of marines sitting on their asses in Okinawa while the situation in Iraq continues to spiral out of control.

Feral-Darkness said:

On another note, Wasn't the US granted that land with no restrictions after WW2? If I am right we are even allowed to store nuclear weapons on it.

Click to expand...

The US occupied Japan for 7 years after WW2 and Okinawa for more than 20 years during which time there were no restrictions on them. But after Japan became an independent country and, later, after Okinawa reverted back to Japanese control the actions of US military forces fell under the status of forces agreement between Washington and Tokyo which does place restrictions on the use of US military facilities in Japan, including the prohibition of nuclear weapons.



As for the rest, I'm thinking the US troops will probably be gone or at least greatly reduced in numbers before too long. This Iraq war is a pretty heavy burden on troop numbers and they can't really afford to have tens of thousands of marines sitting on their asses in Okinawa while the situation in Iraq continues to spiral out of control.

Is it time for US Force to leave Japan?

this is my poll

I think Japan would be very unhappy if U.S. forces left. Despite some complaints of having American troops in their country, they want American protection against North Korea. And with American troops there, they don't have to spend so much money on their military, rather they can put that money into their economy. That's a major reason Japan has become as economically powerful as it is. They might like to have some of their own forces too, but unless some other factors changed dramatically, they would probably feel very vulnerable without American troops protecting them.

USA army is so bad, noboady can protect his country like him ...so I wonder if you wife you bring your nighbour to prtect your wife and you will go to work..!!!! ..it is so funny .... and as we know and all the world know USA control in Yen by the USA army so the troops change the decision in Japan and USA control in ecnomy of Japan so Japan could not untill now to to make yen powerful like US dollars

engalaa said:

USA army is so bad, noboady can protect his country like him ...so I wonder if you wife you bring your nighbour to prtect your wife and you will go to work..!!!! ..it is so funny .... and as we know and all the world know USA control in Yen by the USA army so the troops change the decision in Japan and USA control in ecnomy of Japan so Japan could not untill now to to make yen powerful like US dollars

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What are you talking about? :? I remember several times in recent years when the Yen was more powerful than the $

i would have to say that even though i loath bush, the current situation with korea is enough to justify american forces in japan. i juts wish they would revise japans constitution so they could form a military and join the un security council:0

CC1 can you tell me when the Yen was more powerful than USD....are you sure?!!!!!!!!

engalaa said:

CC1 can you tell me when the Yen was more powerful than USD....are you sure?!!!!!!!!

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Even now when I go to Japan with my US $$s I get less yen in return. When I take my yen back to America it almost doubles in value. It seems that the Yen is USUALLY more valuable than the dollar.

engalaa said:

can you tell me when the Yen was more powerful than USD....are you sure?!!!!!!!!

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We are planning a trip to Japan in a couple of months, and I assure you that our US dollars are worth a lot less than they ever have been vs the Japanese Yen, so at least from my point of view, one of those times is right now.