The Supernatural (preferably for Japanese)

[Mars Man]

Although, different countries do have different ideas about the supernatural,

Thanks for your reply, Kirie_Maiden. This above point is a good one. Perhaps we should focus on those concepts and beliefs which overlap with what can be found in Japan, in order to maintain the 'All Things Japanese' boundries?

We do need to make a distinction between the supernatural and religions, because sometimes the supernatural may not relate to a religion

Another good point...and it is obviously true. Along these lines, I'll then try to identify the subject matter I may bring up as either being of a more religious nature or not. I think there will be times when there will be overlap again...the religious person may see it as an extension of a religious tenet whereas the non-religious person may not.

I'll try to check into that last subject matter a little more, and will also bring up that of term 'spirit'--as was used in the latter portion of your post. I hope to hear from others too.

 

[Kirie_Maiden]

I agree with everything you have said. Maybe the dictionary definition of "spirit" will help.

- the soul regarded as separating from the body at death.
- conscious, incorporeal being, as opposed to matter: the world of spirit.
- a supernatural, incorporeal being, esp. one inhabiting a place, object, etc., or having a particular character: evil spirits.
- an angel or demon.

Another, more impolite, description of a spirit would just be, "ghost" which would be classed as, "a vision of a person who has passed away."

 

[Mars Man]

Good morning, Kirie chan (if I may, please)

Thanks for your reply and the information provided. I would tend to think that in this case, we would more likely end up having to admit that the dictionary is describing word usage much more than prescribing word meaning. Since the dictionary has both functions, and in this case taking the former as carrying far more weight, it may be good to look at how it is used.

- the soul regarded as separating from the body at death.

Let's start by taking a look at, and discussing this usage definition--if that's ok with you. (and others...but you are the only other one discussing at the moment.)

I think the Japanese word which best fits the idea presented would be 'rei'. It could also be extended to 'yuurei'. Now, I'll have to check a little and see what different nuences may be involved here, but for now would think that we could pin the English words 'spirit' (as given above) or 'ghost' on them both.

What my mind then catches, is that we are going to have to define the term 'soul' as well; in order to follow through on the definition given above. (one dictionary I use also highlights it as disembodied soul which again demands the term 'soul' as having been embodied.)

The dictionary that I happen to have in front of me at the moment, gives: soul- Spiritual or immaterial part of man, held to survive death ; This appears to be a bit circular in nature. We could say that the terms 'spirit' and 'soul' are equal by general usage. They would both be 're' (for the most part, I think) in Japanese--'yuurei' tends to more so refer to what is considered an already 'disembodied 'rei'' and is thus more narrow in definition.

Therefore, what could we understand 'soul'--in general term usage, at the moment, still--as consisting of? I will follow up with anything that I feel your response on that point may have left out. Thanks for keeping up with the discussion.

 

[Kirie_Maiden]

Thanks for your reply. The terms do seem to be a little generalised. These are the definitions of, "soul," I managed to find from Dictionary.com

- the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in humans, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body; the spiritual part of humans as distinct from the physical part.
- the spiritual part of humans regarded in its moral aspect, or as believed to survive death and be subject to happiness or misery in a life to come: arguing the immortality of the soul.
- the disembodied spirit of a deceased person: He feared the soul of the deceased would haunt him.
- the emotional part of human nature; the seat of the feelings or sentiments.

Personally, I think the one that would fall into the category of a ghost (or, indeed, of the supernatural) is,

the disembodied spirit of a deceased person

I hope that this helps.

 

[Mars Man]

Hi there again, Kirie chan--Is it ok if I use that manner of addressing you?

I think it'd be good to go with that definition for the term soul that you have provided. I'll take the term spirit to equal with that--since I can see no reason to demand that those two terms be distinguished from each other.

In Japanese, I have so far found out that that would best translate the term 'rei' in the general sense. Some hold that distinction between 'rei' and 'yuurei' to be smaller.

The next thing I'd want to wander off into, would be to try and see if an analysis of that could give us secure information on just what a 'soul' (=spirit) may be. I would be interested in discussing the potential reality of that. I kind of have a feeling that by equating the referent for the word 'soul' with that of 'spirit', we would cancel out the need for that sense of the word 'spirit', so that eventually a 'spirit' would have nothing to do with a human being--either living or non-living.

I look forward to continuing the discussion...it's interesting. See you !!

 

[Kirie_Maiden]

Yeah, that's fine. I don't mind.

I was wondering if you could expand on this post? I don't understand the question. Sorry.

 

[Mars Man]

Hello again...sorry for the delay in getting back.

I guess that perhaps I had not been asking a question per se, but had simply expressed the desire to discuss the reality of concept of the term spirit when held to equal that of soul, which, in turn, would be held to be the person after death. (for the moment putting duality on the side)

I then went on--in that post--kind of thinking out loud, saying that by the definitions we have put out on the table so far, I'd reason that the portion of definition so often given to the word 'spirit' would be cancelled out so that that portion would only mean 'soul', and the definition of spirit that would be left, would have nothing to do with a conscious or unconscious human being.


We may be getting closer to the Japanese term ki （気） here. (can you see that kanji?) Talk to you later Kirie chan.

 

[Kirie_Maiden]

I agree with you. Thank you for clearing that up. Somebody on another thread put a very nice description of a ghost and I thought it best to share it with you.

the spirits of this world are just the "aura" of the people ,and when they die the "aura" of this person is still in this world, but is a primitive soul and only have a few memories and only acts when something remember he, or something like that........................however, the spirits and ghost are only another state of the human matter, well i think so

 

[Mars Man]

Thanks for that extra input there Kirie chan. Here is where the discussion could deepen, perhaps--but it would possibly be more proper to move it to the 'Chit Chat & Misc.' fora since discussing the theme deeper would lead it away from being particularly 'Japanese related'.

The explanation given from that other post, seems to contain a self-contradiction if we hold the definitions we generally have agreed on up to this point. This is true in that as I think we are in general agreement (if only for the sake of consistent argumentation here), the referent for the term 'spirit' is not equal to the referent for the term 'soul' (since any applying of 'spirit' in a way that it would equal 'soul' has been canceled out so that 'soul' is only soul and 'spirit' is only spirit, and we can't use the term 'spirit' to mean soul anymore).

Thus, as that explanation goes, if we were to describe this 'spirit' as an 'aura', we would be surely talking about the Japanese 'ki' (窶ｹC). This would be that which the intellect can use, and may be that which even drives the intellect in some way, but is neither of nor from the intellect. In that way, I would argue that it would not contain memory nor thought process as we know it for second and third tiered animal life forms. (I'm not being so biologically precise here with the term tier)

Additionally, as our definition usage so far would go, I'd argue that in the same way, a 'spirit' would not be a 'ghost' because ghost would be held to be equal to something derived from or equal to 'soul'. That concept would be 'rei' (窶氾ｬ) or 'yuurei' (窶禰窶氾ｬ). Of course, these terms in Japanese even, are used very loosely as well, but we'd have to fix them to equate the definitions we've given in English here.

One very interesting thing I have found--and if this discussion were to go on as a non-Japanese related discussion in the 'Chit Chat and Misc.' fora, would hope to detail more there--is that the term usage (as can be seen in that explanation) tends to be saying that ghosts are as three dimensionally physical as our bodies are...which seems to be defeating the purpose of the term usage itself.

Would you be interested in discussing this in the broarder field or phenomenology, thus in the other fora? If so, I'll start a thread there. Thanks for your input and taking the time to share and discuss and think about it. Talk to you later !! MM

 

[Kirie_Maiden]

Has another thread been started on this subject yet? If so, can you post the link.

This is not directed ar Mars Man. What are other opinions on this subject? If people would tell me their own beliefs or personal stories, I would be happy to read them.

 

[Mars Man]

Apologies for not getting back sooner. I'm sorry. There is a thread in which I am presently (and slowly) presenting some ideas on this--or related to this--in the Chit Chat and Misc. fora--if you'd liked to take a look at it.

Religious Belief-systems 101

This thread topic is not such that a full scientific outlay on other aspects that relate to the discussion of 'spirit' versus 'soul' can be made, but it is at least some interesting information on old Jewish thought on that.

Maybe one day, a thread just for this can get up and going. . . Again, sorry for the delay. MM

 

[Kirie_Maiden]

Thanks. I'll get on over there.

In other news, can people carry on posting on the poll? Your ideas are valuable.

 

[Halewijn]

I didn't really believe in the supernatural untill I went to some certain vacationhouse in the Austrian Alps about 13 years ago. Man, that place was quite disturbing... I guess the house just had this negative vibe going on that makes people feel uncomfortable. Once you feel uncomfortable, small things like noises and ticking (and things falling) that you normally take for granted suddenly makes you feel scared and as if you are being watched by something that you can't see. The most disturbing thing was probably that the light of the stairs leading to the cellar flipped on sometimes during the night. Haha I know it sounds like something I just made up... it's not though, but ofc. this being the internet, anyone can post crap if they wanted. I better stop writing here because this post is kind of embarassing! Certainly not something I would tell someone easily in real life

 

[Kirie_Maiden]

No, don't be embarrased by it. Everybody has these experiences and I think if you voiced them, people would not ridicule you. I know exactly what you mean. If a place makes you feel uncomfortable, it is not just your imagination. The place must have something in it that is making you feel that way.

 

[pugtm]

can someone define supernatural? I mean i believe in g-d related events but not in superstitions like bad luck. since its governed by g-d it's not supernatural anymore just g-dly. so define supernatural please

 

[Mycernius]

can someone define supernatural? I mean i believe in g-d related events but not in superstitions like bad luck. since its governed by g-d it's not supernatural anymore just g-dly. so define supernatural please

Yet you believe in God, which I regard as a superstition and myth, just as throwing salt, shoes on a table. Incidently, why have you typed God as G-d?
The supernatural, to me, is something that we cannot yet explain. I have seen odd things that can be discribed as supernatural, ghost like figures and once, bright flashing lights, but I feel there is a explanation behind them that is no more supernatural than thunderstorms, the rising of the sun and tides. Remember such things were regarded as supernatural by our ancestors, hence the creation of gods and spirits to explain them.

 

[Mars Man]

Heah, heah, heah...looks like you're all wound up for the return of the Serious Discussion fora again there, Mycernius san !! I feel it with you !!

I guess that there will prove to be endless argument on just what is 'supernatural'--I've seen a fair share of conflicting presentations, and it also is rather messy. Anyway, I go right along on the lines of Mycernius' thinking. We just don't know nor understand a whole lot of elements of the universe within which we are made up of and with. There is just this tendency from way back in human history to ascribe the unknown to man-made concepts. . . just as Mycernius has pointed out.

Now, as for the 'g-d' spelling/symbolizing. . . this is Jewish superstition from some point around the first century BCE to first century CE. In the old past, there was no hesitancy whatsoever in writing the tetragammaton in full.

Now...when will (if it ever will) that Serious Discussion sub-section be born again?

 

[Mycernius]

Heah, heah, heah...looks like you're all wound up for the return of the Serious Discussion fora again there, Mycernius san !! I feel it with you !! ....
Now...when will (if it ever will) that Serious Discussion sub-section be born again?

It has been mentioned to admin. I guess it is up to him. I miss that sub-forum, and there are plenty of threads that can be moved there.

Now, as for the 'g-d' spelling/symbolizing. . . this is Jewish superstition from some point around the first century BCE to first century CE. In the old past, there was no hesitancy whatsoever in writing the tetragammaton in full.

Like that scene out of Monty Python. "Stone him"
Well it that particular superstition that led to the incorrect name of Jehovah. I find it strange that pugtm says he doesn't believe in superstitious bad luck, yet promptly uses one when it comes to typing God. But I am going off topic slightly.

 

[pugtm]

Now, as for the 'g-d' spelling/symbolizing. . . this is Jewish superstition from some point around the first century BCE to first century CE. In the old past, there was no hesitancy whatsoever in writing the tetragammaton in full.
Now...when will (if it ever will) that Serious Discussion sub-section be born again?

well it's not a superstition and technically im allowed to since god isn't his real name but you still have to respect the name and writing it down is not allowed except in certain religious cases. A name holds power and explains the nature of the being named. Hence naming a child is considered a minor form of prophecy. technically i should write god out but it was drilled into my head as a child and i've been fighting it out with my rabbi's.(not literally but...they are so cautious they take all the fun out of life...). Also on a computer it's technically ok but old habits die hard.

 

[Mars Man]

Thanks for your response there, pugtm san.

While I yet maintain the validity of my understanding, I can understand your present view on the matter. Yes, you are correct--just as I have pointed out--that the matter had become directed, originally, towards the tetragammaton--which is the proper noun (an actual name) rather than a word like 'el' or 'elohim' or 'el tsur' and so on.

There is far too little evidence in the course of the advance of human knowledge to support any claim about any universal advantage of one human-given name over another. I do understand your point, however, and appreciate your presentation. MM

 

[Mycernius]

There is far too little evidence in the course of the advance of human knowledge to support any claim about any universal advantage of one human-given name over another. I do understand your point, however, and appreciate your presentation. MM

In other words it is such an old superstition that has become so entrenched that no-one dares question it. No empirical evidence to support it, therefore it is a superstition, no matter how people try to hide it or ignore it. As for God, well Mars Man knows exactly my feelings on that particular form of superstition
Old habits that were drumed into you when you were a child are difficult to break, but I it gives you fun to debate with your Rabbi

 

[pugtm]

In other words it is such an old superstition that has become so entrenched that no-one dares question it. No empirical evidence to support it, therefore it is a superstition, no matter how people try to hide it or ignore it. As for God, well Mars Man knows exactly my feelings on that particular form of superstition

Um dont you have a reference to god in your public profile???

Old habits that were drumed into you when you were a child are difficult to break, but I it gives you fun to debate with your Rabbi

well more like traditions than habit. but i always have enjoyed a good logical debate.
ps. just out of curiosity, what does okashieek mean?

 

[Mycernius]

Um dont you have a reference to god in your public profile???
well more like traditions than habit. but i always have enjoyed a good logical debate.
ps. just out of curiosity, what does okashieek mean?

The reference about Mars Man and my feelings on God is when we used to have a Religion and Philosophy subforum. Just to clarify, I am an atheist. Hope that gives you a better idea on my feelings about God or gods.

means Crazy/weird, or at least that what the dictionary says. A few on the forum also use it to signify annoyance. My level of Japanese is very basic, but MM has a much better grasp of the language.

 

[pugtm]

means Crazy/weird, or at least that what the dictionary says. A few on the forum also use it to signify annoyance. My level of Japanese is very basic, but MM has a much better grasp of the language.

thanks for clearing that up.

The reference about Mars Man and my feelings on God is when we used to have a Religion and Philosophy subforum. Just to clarify, I am an atheist. Hope that gives you a better idea on my feelings about God or gods.

I wasn't talking about that i was talking about in you public profile:

Date of Birth:
Apr 9, 1970
Age:
37
Country/State of residence:
UK - England
City/state of residence:
Hometown of George Eliot
Nationality:
English and proud
Mother tongue:
English
Ethnic group:
English
Occupation:
Driver
Japan-related interests:
Japanese language, Japanese food, Traditional culture, Anime/manga, J-Music, Movies, Buddhism and/or Shinto, History
Other interests:
Archery, Reading, posting awkward questions
Length of stay in Japan:
Never been to Japan
Biography:
British by birth, English by the grace of God
Gender:
Male