The BEST way to truly learn Japanese grammar, vocab, and kanji?

This is clearly a Utopian class question here, but I am quite serious in the hope that I can gain deeper insight on how to continue learning Japanese. As I have started Chinese and Korean as well, I'm hoping that maybe any learning methods I improve on with Japanese, I can apply to those languages as well.

Right now I'm at around 5th year Japanese (whatever meaning that holds...) and I'm continuing the endless struggle forward to learn more vocabulary, kanji, as well as grammar structures and truly know them.

Here is the question: Simply put, what is the absolute best method you have found for remembering, understanding, and knowing how to use new vocabulary, kanji, and grammar? Please explain why you believe it is a good method, not just the method process.

Clearly there are some very high level speakers in the mix of posters here, so I'm curious what methods you've used to get to where you are today.

The method I advocate for anyone learning any language: just read. Novels, comics and children's books.
And when you've read for a while, listen, watch, write, and speak.
Forget your dictionaries, forget your grammar books. They are not necessary and will slow you down.

As for justifications of this approach:

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Vocabulary Learning 2

You know I've heard a surprising amount of people say that, and I have to say the power of reading is just frick'n crazy. I know one friend who doubled his Japanese skill just by doing that almost exclusively for 2 months.

The problem I run into is that I consistently run into grammar structures or words that I don't know and hit a snails pace and it begins to feel very unproductive and so much at once is hitting me I seem to forget it relatively fast... Everyone is different of course, maybe this is just a weakness of mine.

One important thing is that you need to start off at a reading level that's not too high. Particularly for the first book you go through, it's useful to read something that you've already read in English in the past. That way you can use your memory of the story to make sense of what you're reading, without actually translating Japanese-English in your head or vice-versa.
I recommend giving Harry Potter a try if you've already read Harry Potter, or if not, try the books from the Unfortunate Events series (世にも不幸なできごと), even if you haven't already read them in English, because they are at a considerably lower reading level than Harry Potter, and still quite enjoyable.


In language learning, it's important to try to rid yourself of the frustration that comes from not understanding things the first time you see them, and to try to abandon the notion that you must understand everything before proceeding. That's unreasonable.
When you see a chunk of words that's too hard, just give it a once-over and press on. There will be easier parts that allow you to infer the meanings and usages of unknown words, idioms, and grammatical expressions.
As you add more to your repertoire, the effect will snowball, and you will find that you are understanding larger portions of the text as you proceed. But you must accept that this is a slow process.

I dont completely condone discarding textbooks, grammar books and the like completely. They are handy resources to have if you can have them. They explain things you dont completely understand and give context to those things as well. Saying that though grammar books and stuff can only go so far. To really know a language you have to use it in reading, writing and speaking.

Yes expose yourself to as much Japanese as possible just learn how to speak "polite" Japanese before you move on to more casual forms.

I dont believe grammar books and such slow you down they supplement and aid your understanding of language. If there is words I dont understand in a manga I'm reading I consult a dictionary, just the same I would if I'm reading something in english and I dont understand what word they've used. Then that builds on your existing vocabulary knowledge. If I was to read a manga without any prior knowledge of kana or kanji it would be extremely slow.

Grammar is the backbone of any language and it would not hurt to learn the basic structure of Japanese sentences...esspecially if your first language has been English. Adults dont absorb language as quickly as children do, particularly after puberty has set in. Acquisition of grammar becomes more difficult and is a much slower process.

The ONLY thing grammar text books and such will not be able to help much with you is Japanese slang. Normally slang is not written, but spoken. Manga is a good source of this as it is probably the only time when Japanese slang is written down verbatim.

So the best way to learn Japanese is to learn the basics from a good textbook then expose yourself to lots of different forms of Japanese (speaking, reading, writing) and not be afraid to just speak in Japanese to a Japanese person. While it might be wrong you just have to do it and not think about it too much.

It is very hard to suggest any specific methods without knowing the level you are at now.

Assuming you have the basics down after 5 years of studying, I think you should try to expose yourself to as much Japanese as possible, written and spoken, by reading news papers, magazines & books, and by watching films, TV programs, etc. You should also USE Japanese as much as you can.

I understand it is hard to use the language unless you have someone who speaks it and is willing to help.

I remember when I first started REALLY studying English (that is after learning the basics in English classes in Junior high), I would try to verbalise everything that popped into my head. I would try to describe in English whatever I was doing (literally describing my physical actions as well as any thoughts in my head).

Of course, at first, I could only manage to say about 10% of what I wanted to say but I just kept at it and in time, 10% became 20%, 20% became 50%...

I believe this eventually taught me to THINK in English.

As I was doing that, there were certain things I just did not know how to say in English, and that was when I went to my grammer books to learn whatever it was that I needed to know to say what I wanted to say.

I think it ultimately comes down to that one answer many students hate to hear.
There is no magic method. You just have to practice until you get it.

P.S.

I have been studying Spanish for a while now and I could spend hours just talking about what would be the best way to memorise the verb conjugations, when I know I should be spending those few hours actually practicing/memorising the conjugations.

I see that a lot of people on this forum study Japanese, yet it is only a handful of them who post anything in Japanese in the Japanese only section. I think they should use that section more to practice actually USING the language by writing with what they know.

Excuse the long post.

Wonderfully helpful posts here. Thank you very much.

Actually, I had a Harry Potter book I was going to try that out with from Book Off, but on my recent flight back I had to ditch it when United tried to charge me $600 for my baggage being overweight. I ditched that book, a light jacket, and two tiny computer speakers and was let on. (I'm not joking... I couldn't believe it either.)

I will try finding some easier reading. Usually I find a book then move so slow that I feel like I'm not making a single bit of progress and should be doing something else. Of course the reading in the text books is hardly enough to keep someone awake so that doesn't help much.

I only have like slightly less than one year experience with Japanese language, but I have to agree with JimmySeal because those few months slowly taught me the same. I personally use one dictionary, and thats umm Kodansha's Kanji Learners Dictionary.
I agree that its pointless to randomly look up words in a regular dictionary.
My method is like this: I keep reading, If I encounter something unfamiliar, I just look it up in the kanji dic, try to memorize it in a couple of minutes and continue, If it occurs often I insert them into my word/kanji lists and make them into flashcards.
For every kanji I try to write 5 words in which they're used, the most common words I know I will encounter often, or well, more often than the rest.
I also like to choose kanji that looks unique, simply because it will be easier to remember if it looks weird.

As for grammar: I think I have said this before... but umm, screw grammar to hell and back. Really.
It does help some in the beginning, but grammar is only a tool to initiate your own natural learning process, you learn a tiny part of it to be able to understand the basics and build your own foundation, from that point, you must rely on instincts and memory, otherwise you'll become a slave to grammar and won't be able to speak freely for a longer time.

Im talking from my English experience. In truth no teacher was able to teach me anything at all, don't get me wrong, I had two great teachers, but I never actually studied, all I did was speak to them about random crap, and thats it. Other than that I played games, lots of games and mmorpg's.
All my acquaintances from elementary school, most of my mates in high school were/are struggling with grammar, and to tell you the truth, during these years I have seen no progress.

I don't know if its right or wrong... in the beginning I was writing out kanji madly, each like 50 times, but I soon realized that "hey, when will I be required to write kanji?" in a couple of years perhaps, but by time that happens, I'll have it down without a problem. So yeah, Im not learned how to write kanji, only how to read them. In three months time I got myself from nothing (like 20-25 basic kanji characters) to reading manga without frustration, and being able to understand and enjoy it.
There's nothing special about this, I just wanted to point out that If I can do it, most people must be able to do it as well.
Its no magic, because as a secondary effect you just won't be able to write the kanji, tough luck, but knowledge is knowledge and there's no real order in which you must acquire it as long as you plan to learn it all.
Gah, this is long sorry.

I know what you mean about writing kanji. I gave up on trying to learn how to write them a year ago when realizing the same thing... I don't write ENGLISH let alone Japanese by hand! I type it! Even on language tests it's not required. I'm focused on reading and remembering the kanji and knowing the vocab. I'll write it only if I feel it will help me remember it.

I find repetition works best for me to learn the stuff initially (a LOT of repetition XD) and then application through reading/listening/watching.

In 5 hours I can learn about 300 new vocab but the problem is retaining it. Basically use the same theory from Primary school, look at it, write it, check it, make an example sentence with it, repeat.(cycling through the words at random of course) It works for me but you need to keep going through stuff a fair bit for the more obscure words to get it stuck in memory

But everyone has their individual learning styles that suits them best so its probably a good idea to trial each one for a week or so and see which one you find best.

But Kanji is probably my favorite, even if we don't NEED to know it I love being able to write it out , and I don't find it TOO difficult to memorize.

Derfel: you will probably never be required to write kanji, unless by write you mean type on a computer or cell phone. Despite the massive amount of time required to remember how to write all the kanji out, it is a very useless skill.

I dislike the category 'grammar,' espcially when it is applied to Japanese. In fact, most of the Japanese people I have showed my 'grammar' books to are like, 'huh, that's grammar?' To them it is just vocab, or knowing what vocab to use in what situations.

Things like の代わりに、の為に, etc. that are often categorized as grammar are just particularly useful vocabulary. For that reason, I find using grammar books to teach these points to be very useful.

Particles, on the other hand, are a good example of 'grammar' that it is not worth just sitting down and memorizing. It is too vague, there are too many things to learn, and it really just has to come naturally through time.

Most of the 'grammar' that is tested, for example, by the JLPT, is very useful stuff to learn because it expands your knowledge of how to say things and strengthens your understanding of key words in the language.

Perhaps 'grammars' of other languages are far less useful to learn. The teaching of English, for example, which is a much more rigid language than Japanese, and contains a far larger number of things like plurals, might not be well suited to simply sitting down and learning. Indeed, based on the 'grammar' lessons my students are taught at school, it seems to do them little good.

I think that spending 5-10% of ones time memorizing 'grammar' (the japanese kind, which as I said is largely vocab), and the rest split however you want between reading, speaking, and watching TV/listening to the radio, is ideal. The more I learn, the more I believe learning is just a matter of vocab and practice...

Charles Barkley said:

Despite the massive amount of time required to remember how to write all the kanji out, it is a very useless skill.

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What???

JimmySeal said:

What???

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Sorry, I phrased that in a rather insulting way. I meant to stress that one need not have uses for it, rather than that there are no uses for it.

I can't actually imagine any time in the future when I would strictly need to write something by hand using kanji. Perhaps my understanding of the nature of postgraduate study/business is Japan is mistaken, but it seems like one could get by with a computer, or if necessary, with the lovely technique of printing out what one wants to say and then copying by hand. For that reason, and for others, I do believe it is important to understand the stroke order so that one could write any kanji reasonably quickly, but memorizing them seems unnecessary.

Obviously there are things you can do with it, like shodou, writing letters, making notes to yourself that are more legible than lots of hiragana, impressing chicks, etc..I imagine it would also be necessary to know it if you want to pass entrance exams like a normal Japanese (luckily that's unecessary for the vast majority of us).

I dunno, when in your daily life do you need to be able to recall how to write lots of kanji? Or were you just saying there are many ways you can use it, whether or not you are required to do so.

ETA: In my mind it is comparable to being able to write cursive English, which I unashamedly am unable to do.

Hell ya, join my 'can't write cursive English!"

Yes, I do indeed see little academic need to know how to write all the kanji I can read. Heck, I don't even write in ENGLISH! I type! Knowing stroke patterns and order is important, for looking things up and understanding radicals, but knowing how to write all used kanji is not useful even for Japaense students.

JimmySeal said:

The method I advocate for anyone learning any language: just read. Novels, comics and children's books.
And when you've read for a while, listen, watch, write, and speak.
Forget your dictionaries, forget your grammar books. They are not necessary and will slow you down.
As for justifications of this approach:

Click to expand...

This seems very interesting to me. I have just one question, concerning Japanese.
How does one go about reading materials that are written in kanji with no furigana to assist?
I've encounter web pages, supposedly containing kids stories, with kanji. Some of these stories were narrated, making the pronunciations evident, but most weren't.

hmmmm.... no ideas?

kazelee said:

hmmmm.... no ideas?

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When I encounter text without furigana and there are kanji I don't know, I like to copy/paste into MS Word and sort everything out nicely because sometimes the formatting is off, then copy paste again into Rikai.

http://www.rikai.com/perl/Home.pl

Rikai-chan will not translate the text, but it will (in most cases) provide you with the readings for the kanji when you roll your mouse over the unknown characters. This way you can choose to read with or without assistance, and you also don't have to worry about counting strokes and looking things up in a kanji dictionary as with reading paper books.