Teaching in coffeeshops - level of Japanese needed?

[Glenski]

I think you're over-reacting a bit there Glenski. Anyone who's seriously studying a language knows first hand that any amount of time with a native speaker of that language is invaluable.

I disagree, but let's leave it at that.

While it's certainly not the pinnacle of English education, a native speaker giving you pointers and providing you with an opportunity to use what you're studying for one hour (and I'm sure it spilled over into the 1 hour and 15 minutes, perhaps even 1 and a half hour range as it does with my private teacher), is a lot more helpful than most textbooks.

Ah, but you assume that the teacher does all that when "chatting". I don't make that assumption. Have seen many that don't do any of that. Don't get me started.

For 2000 yen, with a person who's being upfront about their capabilities and in a situation where everyone is clear on what they're getting and what's happening, you're getting decent value in my opinion.

Gritting my teeth and totally disagreeing.

I'd pay 2000 yen for an hour where the focus is completely on me and a native speaker is correcting my mistakes and telling me things not found in textbooks, definitely.

So many "teachers" do the former and don't/can't do the latter. You get what you pay for. Beside, that undercuts the market for the rest of us who ask for more (yet far less than what was paid in the bubble days), offer more, and find it hard to get clients because they are used to the cheapskate wannabes.

I got a call from a uni professor who wanted a replacement for his Aussie tutor that returned to Oz. I told him he had to pay 4000 yen/hour plus transportation (amounting to a 45-minute subway ride plus a bus or taxi ride). We exchanged 2 emails on that, and he said he "only had to pay 2000 yen/hour" from his previous tutor. Gimme a break!
1. I'm not him.
2. You need the tutor, and I had experience while the Aussie didn't.
3. You have the money.
So, I lost the contract. Didn't lose sleep over it, because there are more fish in the sea, but can you see my point?

But all that aside, many Japanese students seek out a curriculum, some kind of system that they can follow, stay the path, etc. The Berlitz method, the Nova system, the whatever. For these masses the eikaiwas, the expensive schools, the 'academies' and 'institutes of', are more reassuring despite the results being essentially the same.

Yes, and there are also huge numbers who go to eikaiwa only to socialize or kill time or meet a foreigner, NOT to learn the language to any degree.

And once again I'm talking about speaking focused classes, universities and whatnot offer a completely different approach and purpose.

My uni is not that much different than most others in the respect that we have a certain number of mandatory courses, and most students just get them out of the way in the first year. They see no value in them and have no concept of "structure". It's a credit to pay for, nothing more.

What I would consider a slap in the face are teachers employed all across Japan who for various reasons are protected by contracts and employed full time and therefore do not 'work for their money', they are for all intents and purposes assured a salary whether the student walks away satisfied or not. I don't think you can peg that kind of criticism on teachers in any one industry, they exist at all levels, although I'd agree they do inhabit eikaiwas more often than not.

Yup. They do (and I did, too, but I was not that type). I don't see things changing for the better there, though.

 

[bakaKanadajin]

I disagree, but let's leave it at that.

Ah, but you assume that the teacher does all that when "chatting". I don't make that assumption. Have seen many that don't do any of that. Don't get me started.

Gritting my teeth and totally disagreeing.

Well I draw a clear line between language exchange and an informal lesson.
Language exchange is just chatting and it has to happen in both languages to make it an equal exchange since no ones paying, and the situation we're discussing was a lesson. The OP of that post did say that it was chatting but that pointers were given. I think it fits the bill moreso of an informal lesson than a free chat session because again, focus was all on the student's desired target language and there was correction involved.

Again, to compare I put it out there, any foreigner in Japan seriously studying Japanese would know that time with a native speaker who will, although not marking your papers and adhering to a peer-reviewed curriculum, provide you with an hour of native-speaker level examples and correct you when you don't make sense, is invaluable if you have the faculties to absorb it.

I'm not even so much defending what that guy did in particular, just the concept that 2000yen an hour for a light lesson isn't automatically poor value.

So many "teachers" do the former and don't/can't do the latter. You get what you pay for. Beside, that undercuts the market for the rest of us who ask for more (yet far less than what was paid in the bubble days), offer more, and find it hard to get clients because they are used to the cheapskate wannabes.

Yes, and there are also huge numbers who go to eikaiwa only to socialize or kill time or meet a foreigner, NOT to learn the language to any degree.

You should know having so many years in the industry that you do not always get what you pay for at any level. But fair enough, on average you do get more at a school. Books, refunds, a quiet learning environment, more flexible lesson hours, listening material, etc.

Sure students are sometimes there to do nothing but socialize and
I don't disagree with you there but that's at the cheapies and indies.
The biggest of those is (was) Nova. It's feasible to pay cash for company at those kinds of places because it doesn't cost a whole lot.

Although not super I think the money paid at places like Gaba and Berlitz (especially Berlitz, as I understand it they're the most expensive of the big names) warrants more careful spending on the students part, I mean that'd be a hella expensive way just to meet people.

Also, hate to break it to you but bubble and pre-bubble days are gone world-wide. Thinking we're entitled to the salaries they paid during that dream-phase is just silly. The Japanese themselves can't even hope for that. That's one of the things that makes me laugh at the Berlitz union's fight. Whatever happened to just working for your money and making sure you don't get canned?

I got a call from a uni professor who wanted a replacement for his Aussie tutor that returned to Oz. I told him he had to pay 4000 yen/hour plus transportation (amounting to a 45-minute subway ride plus a bus or taxi ride). We exchanged 2 emails on that, and he said he "only had to pay 2000 yen/hour" from his previous tutor. Gimme a break!
1. I'm not him.
2. You need the tutor, and I had experience while the Aussie didn't.
3. You have the money.
So, I lost the contract. Didn't lose sleep over it, because there are more fish in the sea, but can you see my point?

I won't argue with you there. As I said, 2000yen an hour is reasonable digs for an informal lesson where the self-motivated, perceptive student benefits from and is able to absorb native exposure and unstructured correction. If that individual wanted someone armed with the tools to supplement a university-level education then he will get what he pays for at 2000yen.

My uni is not that much different than most others in the respect that we have a certain number of mandatory courses, and most students just get them out of the way in the first year. They see no value in them and have no concept of "structure". It's a credit to pay for, nothing more.

And despite what I said in the above paragraph, a lot of students see their entire time at Uni like that due to the way the companies recruit. Recruiting practices over here effectively end the need to study at having been accepted into Uni., not graduating.

 

[Glenski]

Well I draw a clear line between language exchange and an informal lesson.
Language exchange is just chatting

Not where I come from. Language exchange could also be where person A teaches a mini-lesson to person B, and then vice versa happens.

Again, to compare I put it out there, any foreigner in Japan seriously studying Japanese would know that time with a native speaker who will, although not marking your papers and adhering to a peer-reviewed curriculum, provide you with an hour of native-speaker level examples and correct you when you don't make sense, is invaluable if you have the faculties to absorb it.

Yes, and that is not just chatting.

I'm not even so much defending what that guy did in particular, just the concept that 2000yen an hour for a light lesson isn't automatically poor value.

You have your financial standards, and so do I. Plenty of people on other discussion forums would agree with me that 2000 yen/hour is a pittance and disgrace, yet so many newbies and naive "teachers" ask for it. Students will always want the lowest prices, yet some of my friends have run into interesting circumstances when they raised their prices -- the students actually said, "It's about time!"

Sure students are sometimes there to do nothing but socialize and
I don't disagree with you there but that's at the cheapies and indies.

I am not sure what you mean by "cheapies and indies". NOVA was like the other big chain eikaiwas.

The biggest of those is (was) Nova. It's feasible to pay cash for company at those kinds of places because it doesn't cost a whole lot.

Depends on your bank account. Places like NOVA had students sign up for a mandatory set of lessons, and those weren't cheap!

Also, hate to break it to you but bubble and pre-bubble days are gone world-wide. Thinking we're entitled to the salaries they paid during that dream-phase is just silly.

I didn't mean to imply that. To hope for 10,000 yen per hour's lesson is indeed silly. However, 2000 is abyssmal. Most serious teachers, not chatters, will ask for 4000-5000 these days and get it. The problem I bring up is that too many newbies or naive people bring the expectation of fees down by charging 1000-2000.

And despite what I said in the above paragraph, a lot of students see their entire time at Uni like that due to the way the companies recruit. Recruiting practices over here effectively end the need to study at having been accepted into Uni., not graduating.

Yup, in most cases, it's largely a matter of who your major professor is and knows, and what the name of your school is.

 

[bakaKanadajin]

You have your financial standards, and so do I. Plenty of people on other discussion forums would agree with me that 2000 yen/hour is a pittance and disgrace

As I already said it depends on what you're supposed to be getting. It sounds like you think anything at 2000 yen is a disgrace. I'm not saying that teaching for 2000 yen an hour is a way to make a living, I'm simply saying that for 2000 yen it's possible to have a native speaker chat with you for an hour, correct a few of your mistake and for you to be able to derive benefit from that.

I am not sure what you mean by "cheapies and indies". NOVA was like the other big chain eikaiwas.

I mean the little places that don't even advertise.

NOVA was by far the worst. Absolutely. Every company has its good and not so good locations (big schools are always the worst because they're so busy and the teachers don't care) but NOVA was bad across the boards. Also keep in mind things like business practices and the variety of materials used, working conditions, etc.

Depends on your bank account. Places like NOVA had students sign up for a mandatory set of lessons, and those weren't cheap!

It's all relative. If you're gonna use eikaiwa as a meet-market NOVA was the biggest and cheapest pony.

 

[Glenski]

I'm certainly not saying that 2000 yen/lesson/student is something to live on. Nope. I'm just saying that most people nowadays who have done any teaching here at all will scoff at the 2000 figure and tell you that it's very easy to ask for and get twice that.

The 2000 yen fees bring the market down. Only naive teachers ask for such wages, and that's what I am talking about. Ask for more. You'll be surprised at how many will pay.

Want to teach serious or just gab about your own weekend and let students sit in awed silence? That's your business, but the money is still there to be had. Don't make it worse for the rest of us who are not just starting out. That's my message.

 

[Taiko666]

Glenski, my mate's motive in obtaining cash this way was to save his marriage. The impact of his actions on official teachers' earnings were not really part of his decision-making process. What you say to him if you met him?

In any case, while I of course appreciate your concerns, the term 'price fixing cartel' springs to mind. It's a competitive world, and being undercut is just part of life. I'm being adversley affected by this phenomenon at the moment.

 

[Glenski]

Glenski, my mate's motive in obtaining cash this way was to save his marriage. The impact of his actions on official teachers' earnings were not really part of his decision-making process. What you say to him if you met him?

This is the bike mechanic from post #13?

Simple. I'd tell him what I tell other people including my friends who sometimes sell themselves for too low a price: you can make far more.

I will not call them stupid, just naive, if that's what you're driving at. I would like to further discuss your mechanic friend and his situation, but that would deviate from this thread. PM me if you want to continue. No real need, though.

In any case, while I of course appreciate your concerns, the term 'price fixing cartel' springs to mind.

And, "let the buyer beware" comes to mine.

It's a competitive world, and being undercut is just part of life. I'm being adversley affected by this phenomenon at the moment.

And, how do you feel about it? I felt bad when the NOVA teachers lost their jobs and some had to sell lessons on the street (literally) for 500 yen or food, but theirs was a unique situation. For someone to plan to go into the private lesson business (and yes, it is a business!) one had better plan well.

Oh, and does being undercut mean we have to like it? Of course not, as your own words above lead me to believe. What do you tell people who ask for too low a price on private lessons, and those lessons are virtually taken away from you?

 

[Taiko666]

And, how do you feel about it?

I never suggested that one shouldn't feel bad about being undercut. I don't see how complaining about the people doing the undercutting helps though.

What do you tell people who ask for too low a price on private lessons, and those lessons are virtually taken away from you?

Naturally I'd like to tell the workers in my company's Indian office to ask for more money, then my job in Japan might be safeguarded But then of course they'd be out of a job instead.

 

[Glenski]

I don't see how complaining about the people doing the undercutting helps though.

Complain enough to the undercutters, and maybe they'll take the hint. That's my strategy anyway.

Naturally I'd like to tell the workers in my company's Indian office to ask for more money, then my job in Japan might be safeguarded But then of course they'd be out of a job instead.

Well, we all need our priorities.