Russia's military incursion into Georgia

Gaberdeen

Boku no namae wa Gary des
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Serious Discussions, Serious Question.

I know that a proportion of the forum will hail from North America and wil have a different take on the events of last week.

What does everyone think? I'm interested in others opinons so feel free to speak your mind, I have my own opinon on it, but I'd like to hear what other people think first :)


窶堋?窶堙ィ窶堋ェ窶堙??堋、窶堙仰!
 
I got the feeling..............

the little guy kept poking the big bear with a stick and then can't understand why he got bit. Sure wish Bush would keep away from the bear and not annoy it.

Uncle Frank

:eek:
 
All I can say is, that I am glad that Georgia does not belong to the European Union, otherwise we would be in war with Russia right now.

Gorgia has asked for a membership in the European Union. I guess that Russia is showing us all that she does not want the EU next door. None of the old states of the what once was U.S.S.R. should go to the EU. Or else ... Russia is showing off her power.

Europe will keep quiet, we need the Russian Oil and Gas.
 
All I can say is, that I am glad that Georgia does not belong to the European Union, otherwise we would be in war with Russia right now.
Gorgia has asked for a membership in the European Union. I guess that Russia is showing us all that she does not want the EU next door. None of the old states of the what once was U.S.S.R. should go to the EU. Or else ... Russia is showing off her power.
Europe will keep quiet, we need the Russian Oil and Gas.

Right. Better keep distance as such conflict has nothing to do with EU.

Of course, Georgia is too far from Asia.
 
I personally don't know what to think about it. Too much disinformation and propaganda on both sides to uncover some truth about it.

The situation don't seem to been driven by a single factor though, you have oil, russians living in South Ossetia apparently being killed by the Georgian's army, the fact that South Ossetia declared independence more than a decade ago, Georgia having a pro-western president and probably Soviet nationalism coming back.

I doubt anyone will actively put their nose between Russia and Georgia, not militarily. Can't remember anyone who has both the capability nor the conviction to do so. I guess we'll have to keep a watching eye on the situation and see what comes out of it.
 
Hideaway

I fully agree with you! None of us will come between Russia and Georgia and most certainly not militarily.
But as usual in all wars, the civilians are the losers. I do feel sorry for them.

In Holland we grumble that bread a.s.o. gets more expensive.
 
I think Bush has a bit of a cheek telling Russia that they are trying to overthrow the Georgian government and that they should stop it. He should know, after all he is an expert in overthrowing governments. :eek:
Either that or he is confused on why Russia would invade one of the southern US states.
"No George, wrong Georgia" :D
 
I'm in general agreement. It's hypocritical for the UK and US governments in particular to criticise Russia's actions after thier cackhanded meddling in WMD-free Iraq and the noise they're making at Iran.

Georgia should now NEVER become a member of NATO - yet the US and UK are demanding that this course of action be expedited! Not a single mainstream politician on either the UK or US side has condemned the attack on Tskhinvali by Georgian forces (Breaking a cease-fire agreement 3 hours after it was signed, using MFRL, which are rapier type barrage rockets that can and did level city blocks and make no distinction between civilian or military targets)

Quite frankly, it's disgusting.
 
Never say never. Sphere of influence politics tend to grow intense than calm down a bit.
 
Georgia will never be far from controversy in the future stage of politics. The UK and US are keen on georgia joining because Saakashvili has thrown troops at Iraq and championed a missle base and a Nato garrison in Russia's back yard.

I won't be living in Scotland this time next year - and with the speeches that the PM and David Cameron are giving - showing complete solidarity with an obnoxious cretin like Saakashvili, I won't ever be returning.
 
You know, there was once a magical place called Sudetenland and a little British man called Chamberlain who said, "Peace in our time!"

Then there was Dunkirk.

I find it disturbing and disgusting that members of a liberal federation with somewhat democratic ideals will sigh with relief that another sovereign state is being stamped on, sighing because that sovereign state is "not a member" because then you'd "be in a war."

What cowardice. And before you start pointing fingers at me and screaming "Iraq, Iraq," I'll have you know that Georgia doesn't have a dictator gassing 1/3 of it's population, and 1/2 of Russia isn't ticked off at their President for getting involved in a war, like 1/2 of the US population is. There is a vast difference. Russia is flexing its muscles and I think it is a very sad and twisted commentary about European intestinal fortitude (or lack thereof) that you could happily sit back and watch as a great big bully beats up on a small weak guy and say, "Oh, as long as it's not me."

Then you wag your finger at the US and say "for shame!" I guess it's okay for the Russians to beat up on other people but not for the US, right?

I'm not just offended, I'm sickened. Especially sickened because I've got relatives face down in European dirt so the Third Reich wouldn't last 1,000 years and you'd have freedom. Now I see what you people do with your freedom and am disgusted. No, war is a terrible thing, and yes, the Georgians poked the bear, repeatedly. But that doesn't make it right. Especially when you hypocrites are so judgemental to Americans who go off half-cocked to try to build a democracy in Iraq and screw it up. The Russians aren't interested in building democracies.
 
Hi God Emperor Leto,

Thanks for your contribution - It's as welcome as any other on this forum, although I'm inclined to include that namecalling and confrontational commentary on others posters opinions is neither acceptable nor lends weight to your arguements, which are valid and don't require the acerbic edge you've given them.

Your arguement about the Suntenland is a fair one, although to my discredit, before the US led invasion of Iraq, I personally used the same example as you for a justification for going to war - that was untill, the lack of WMD's and the "Dodgy Dossier" exposed the horrirying truth as being little more than a flimsy pretext.

Your comments about Georgia's status within NATO I don't agree with. Georgia has an internal border issue that has existed since the break-up of the USSR. The only country opposed to talks on deciding the future of these provinces is Georgia and as a result, the US and her allies.

Rewind Just 4 months ago when Serbia's breakaway region of Kosovo attempted to secede from Serbia - Russia cried foul and the West Cried "FREEDOM" - Can you tell me what the differences are? I see non - both examples are ethnically divided - have sought autonomy for over 10 years (closer to 20 in the case of Abkhazia & S.O) surely the rules for Kosovo apply to the South Ossetians and Abkhazians too?

You cited cowardice earlier - and that Georgias leader isn't gassing 1/3 of the population. Granted, Saddam gassed Kurds nigh on 20 years ago and we only "acted" as an international community after 10 years of sheepishly admitting that the US and UK supplied the Mustard Gas to do it with. The US on the otherhand supplied the MFRL barrage rockets to Georgia which killed 1000 civilians and peacekeepers outright before Georgia rolled it's Tanks in - In breach of the ceasefire signed only 3 hours beforehand with the South Ossetians - Cowardice you say?

Do not attempt to lecture me or anyone else on losing family to the 3rd Reich. My Grandfather fought for 7 years in europe against the Nazi's before being redeployed to Palestine under a UN peacekeeping Mandate - 1 year later He was found hanged in an Orange Orchard by Stern Gang separatists - Jews who just a year Earlier he'd help free from Nazi concentration camps, so please don't sully his name or mine by calling anyone a coward - the Irony of conflict lost it's humour with me many moons ago.

If your intersetd to know - the ceasefire agreement proposed by the French includes international talks on the futures of the two breakaway regions - Georgia has already flattly refused to give ground on this, judge for yourself who is being unreasonable.

That said, Thanks for your insight - minus the insults it was a welcome addition.
 
I'll start off by admitting that my response was a knee-jerk reaction. As for name-calling, well, I wouldn't consider it name-calling, but yes, the accusations of cowardice and hypocrisy were uncalled for, I'll admit. Consider this an apology for misconduct.

I've had time to cool off, and but I'm still sickened and dismayed by some of the reactions I've seen. As for calling this an internal border issue between Russia and Georgia, that was not unlike Hitler's rhetoric in annexing Czechoslovakia (the Sudetenland "wanted to join" Germany because it was "full of Germans" leading to the annexation of the entire country). There's no reason for Russian troops to penetrate as deeply into Georgia as they have. In addition, the troop withdrawal that has recently been hammered out is being carried out at a snail's pace (if at all) last time I checked the news.

South Ossetia isn't breaking away from Georgia to become independent, they are trying to rejoin Russia. There are differences, too. Russia didn't invade Serbia and attempt to occupy it, which is what is going on in Georgia.

I don't necessarily agree with the Georgians. But understand, they've been living in Russia's shadow for centuries, and were especially bound to Moscow in ways we can't even begin to comprehend during the Soviet regime.

The statement about my ancestry was a red herring, I'll admit, and proved nothing. Again, it was an emotionally charged attack, and wasn't very valid.

The issue isn't crystal clear. It's actually incredibly complicated. Georgia has stepped on Russia's toes repeatedly, and in a lot of ways has brought this upon itself. But after watching Putin's maneuverings and listening to his speeches, and seeing him consolidate his hold on the Russian government, I've got a lot of fears about him. He has not ruled out military imperialism as a route to international power. People may hate the United States and call us imperialist swine, but it wasn't M-16s that built our hegemony, but Big Macs, Levis jeans, and Nike Air Jordans. The biggest export Russia has ever--and will ever--produce is the AK-47. Russia's election was a farce, and everyone knows that Putin still controls the government. The hated and much maligned George W. Bush is a "lame duck" in comparison, and the US is headed for a peaceful and internally motivated "regime change" in a few months--something the recent elections in Russia failed to provide.

But I'm doing far too much comparison, here. The most important point is that the other peoples of Europe are doing what the do best--sitting on their hands and saying, "Well, so long as it isn't me," or "They had it coming."

Edit: These last two paragraphs I've cut. It is still pretty darn hard for me to segregate my own personal feelings toward this mess. So I'll simply say this:

I feel, feel, mind you, that Europe has done nothing to take a position of leadership in the global community. Americans, per capita, give more aid financially out of our own pockets through charity organizations than any other nation in the world. People have pointed their fingers at the US for invading Iraq but sitting and doing nothing with Darfur. But Europe has done nothing as well. Europe was happy to let Milosovich massacre other Slavs. Europe not only created the genocide in Rwanda, but ignored it. Every opportunity the Europeans have had to do something, or to change a place that was going haywire, you've done nothing. Just like with Georgia.

I believe that many Europeans hate America and feel that we are a young, brutish, upstart nation of uncultured cowboys who want to shoot up anyone who isn't white, meanwhile Europe is a hotbed of anti-semitism, but it's okay, because the Israelis are evil people right? You mention your grandfather in Palestine. Did you know that Arab artillery batteries that bombarded the civilian sectors of Jerusalem in 1946 had British officers in charge of them? But yet everyone seems to believe that Americans are all these jingoistic corporate hillbilly racists who conquer other peoples for fun.

In the face of this abject dislike, I feel that the Americans who fought against the Germans (twice thanks to Versailles, instead of once, but whose fault was that?) should have honestly stayed at home. We aren't wanted. We weren't wanted during the 1950s, when Khruschev crushed the Hungarians who wanted democracy, and rolled tanks into Poland to defeat revolutionaries there.

So I say the US should take it's ball and go home. Tell Putin he can do what he wants. If Europe starts freaking out because Russian tanks are rolling across the North German Plain, it's not our problem. If we are so darn bad, why do you keep buying Levis and Nikes?

I personally believe that Russia is a threat. This terrorism crap is small potatos, and it has everybody distracted. Hopefully, the impending (peaceful) regime change in the United States will give us a second chance in the Middle East as well as in other areas of diplomacy, but as far as I'm concerned, we were wrong to get involved with Europe in 1917, and given the treatment of the fledgeling German democracy (so much for the "Great War for Democracy") at Versailles, I'm not so sure we were on the right side during that fight, anyway. And as such, it is a mistake to get involved in global affairs against Russia. We should step back and let you deal with them alone.

Granted, this is all opinion and it is based on an emotional response. It is generated by a lot of the anti-American sentiment that goes around. Yes, some of it is deserved. But, as one of my friends once said, "The Europeans cannot think strategically any longer, because they are unwilling or incapable of considering a military solution, unless, of course, they are going to beat up on somebody weaker than them, like Argentina, over a bunch of worthless islands." I'm personally sick and tired of it. I feel as if Russia is gearing up for something big. Putin's behavior is belligerent, and his sabre-rattling evokes images of Adolf without the racism. And I fear that the Europeans are leaving themselves wide open for another round of devastated cities and massive violence. A good empire-builder starts out by knocking out all of the weak, insignificant powers nobody cares about, before taking on all of the big dogs that are going to be difficult to roll. Georgia poses no threat to Russia, strategically, militarily, or diplomatically. So why gobble them up? To grow stronger from incorporating them.

But hey, I'm just an uneducated imperialist Yank cowboy. What do I know.
 
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But I'm doing far too much comparison, here. The most important point is that the other peoples of Europe are doing what the do best--sitting on their hands and saying, "Well, so long as it isn't me," or "They had it coming." But do you want to know how I really feel about all this? The truth is, I feel that we Americans are making a horrific mistake. Putting missiles in Poland is a disastrous move that will only escalate our already sour relations with the Neo-Soviets.

Unlikely. The Russian government knows the missile defense system can't put a dent into a nominal ICBM barrage from their territory. Its even questionable whether the NMD system can take down a single Russia's new generation RS-24 ICBMs; which has maneuverable MIRVs and decoy systems. Much of this is political maneuvering on the part of the Russian Federation.


It is my opinion that we should honestly leave Europe to its own devices. Send Putin a blank check. If tanks roll across the North German Plain, so be it. The wise and mighty Europe, with it's glorious history of democracy, political temperence, and religious tolerance needs no protection or guidance from a nation of upstart ingrates like the United States.

Europeans of all stripes have long acknowledged the need for the engagement of the United States. The Euro-missiles crises of the 1980s, the effort to prevent U.S. disengagement at the end of the Cold War, the call for U.S. assistance during the Bosnian and Kosovo crises, the care taken during creation of the ESDP not to detach the US from the EU. Even in the years after the acrimonious split as a result of the Iraq war, you had the then Defense Minister of France, Michèle Alliot-Marie state that NATO was critical for French security; this can be interpreted to mean that the continued engagement of the United States was critical for its defense. So really your characterization that the Europeans are ungracious of the U.S.'s role in the international affairs and European security is completely inaccurate.

We already fought on the wrong side in the Great War when we should have just stayed out of it. I'm loath to see my fellow countrymen die again someday for people who will end up cursing our names when the dust is settled again.

Bitter much?
 
Your comments about Georgia's status within NATO I don't agree with. Georgia has an internal border issue that has existed since the break-up of the USSR. The only country opposed to talks on deciding the future of these provinces is Georgia and as a result, the US and her allies.
Rewind Just 4 months ago when Serbia's breakaway region of Kosovo attempted to secede from Serbia - Russia cried foul and the West Cried "FREEDOM" - Can you tell me what the differences are? I see non - both examples are ethnically divided - have sought autonomy for over 10 years (closer to 20 in the case of Abkhazia & S.O) surely the rules for Kosovo apply to the South Ossetians and Abkhazians too?
You cited cowardice earlier - and that Georgias leader isn't gassing 1/3 of the population. Granted, Saddam gassed Kurds nigh on 20 years ago and we only "acted" as an international community after 10 years of sheepishly admitting that the US and UK supplied the Mustard Gas to do it with. The US on the otherhand supplied the MFRL barrage rockets to Georgia which killed 1000 civilians and peacekeepers outright before Georgia rolled it's Tanks in - In breach of the ceasefire signed only 3 hours beforehand with the South Ossetians - Cowardice you say?

Umm first off the Georgians don't use American MRLS system: they have 15 BM-21 and 7 RS-70 units; both Soviet Vintage units they inherited.

Onto the substantive issue. Claiming extending NATO and EU membership is a mistake ignores the positive aspects of this policy on Georgia. First off it would have given a far stronger lever for the West to pressure its government to stand down. Clearly Georgia's current membership in NATO's Partnership for Peace and the EU's Neighborhood Action policy had little effect on its behaviour. The EU has been attempting to find a peaceful resolution for the last decade, but its been ineffective, partly because there was no levers on Georgia. Secretary of State Rice's warning to Gerogia last year not to provoke the Russian Federation might have been heeded by Shaaliskashvilli. More importantly however, Georgia's acquis communautaire to join the EU would have included obligations to resolve the Ossetia and Abkhazia issue peacefully. Abrogating that would have clearly removed it from contention to join the union. You see a similar obligation with Turkey and the Kurds. So NATO and EU membership would have almost certainly altered the country's behavior.


If your intersetd to know - the ceasefire agreement proposed by the French includes international talks on the futures of the two breakaway regions - Georgia has already flattly refused to give ground on this, judge for yourself who is being unreasonable.

In reality both sides were spoiling for a fight for quite a long time. For the last year there has been a number of incidents, including the downing of remotely controlled drones inside Georgia (three months ago), incursions and the like. Three weeks ago Georgia became the target of a massive cyber attack to take down the country's internet access. The US and the EU attempted to stop this tit for tat escalation, but to no avail. If it didn't happen last week, a blow up would have likely occurred sometime in the future.
 
Bitter much?
Absolutely. I won't lie, I am, 100%. Bitter, angry, and I feel pretty much unappreciated.

The Russian government knows the missile defense system can't put a dent into a nominal ICBM barrage from their territory.
Then why are they threatening a nuclear strike if we install a missile shield? This is a somewhat rhetorical question, though. I imagine that they are using it as an excuse to escalate the ongoing tensions and give themselves more excuses to take hardline anti-Western moves.

The Euro-missiles crises of the 1980s, the effort to prevent U.S. disengagement at the end of the Cold War, the call for U.S. assistance during the Bosnian and Kosovo crises, the care taken during creation of the ESDP not to detach the US from the EU.
Tell that to the French, in specific. Throughout the 1990s, blocking the United States was the A-#1 strategy of the French president. Everything we attempted to do, the French president was there trying to block us in the UN and NATO. Granted, the French to not represent the whole of the European community, but it really starts to get irksome when someone who is supposedly your ally starts to hinder you. That was Chirac's entire career as French president--he got more support from the French the more he tried to stop the US, because the French didn't like the US "telling them what to do."

So really your characterization that the Europeans are ungracious of the U.S.'s role in the international affairs and European security is completely inaccurate.
I've spoken to Europeans, mostly Germans, French, and English to be specific. And the bulk of them felt exactly what I said--the United States is an upstart nation that is using its military muscle to exert hegemonic power, and they resent it. I've gotten this from their very mouths in serious political discussions. "Why do we need American soldiers on our soil? Yankee go home." Fine. I say we go home. Yes, I am bitter.

And as for the World Wars, read about the chain of command, and read about how many Americans died in the European theater because of British and French generals during both wars. The British and French wanted to use Americans the same as they had the Aussies at Gallipoli. Patton was continually reprimanded by his superiors (in both wars) because his conduct of maneuver warfare was so successful that he was winning the wars too fast and the "allies" couldn't keep up. When I say we fought for the wrong side, I say it because the "Great War for Democracy" ended up punishing a fledgeling German democracy for what the previous (and ousted) monarch had done--and punished them so well, that they created Hitler. Without Versailles, there would never have been an Nazi Party. Thanks.

Hence, when I see things like Russia pulling the tricks they are, I get nervous. I get nervous because I feel like a bad war is better than a worse peace (I'm paraphrasing Plutarch here, I believe). I also feel as if the Europeans view the United States similar to how the Delian League viewed the "Athenian Empire" during the fifth century BC. Ironically, the US "inherited" its empire in much the same manner--through our victories in a devastating war against an aggressive enemy. Also ironically, the Cold War is a lot like the maneuverings of Athens and Sparta during that same epoch. Interesting how we are developing into the same old set of tensions as we had been in. The US has a long and ignoble history of invading other countries in an effort to preserve or prop up democracies that oftentimes end up falling apart and garnering us international infamy. But I can't think of Russia doing the same thing.

So, yeah, South Ossetia wants to go back to Russia. So why drive tanks toward Tbilisi? Why pour troops into the entire country? Why the masses of refugees? Is it, perhaps, they know the Russians better than we do? They learned how to create empires from the Mongols, after all. Raping, looting, and pillaging, they avenged themselves on East Germans, and indeed, against the Japanese still in Sakhalin after the Second World War officially ended.

I won't lie. The US is an empire. But if we vacate the post, as I feel everyone wants us to do, then who is going to take over? Will Russia fill that power vacuum we leave behind? Are you comfortable with that?

I pretty much feel like the Europeans only want us around when somebody needs to get killed on a battlefield. So yeah, I'm bitter. Incredibly bitter. I like individual Europeans. I consider myself a man of the world, someone who is interested in other cultures and peoples and languages. I'm an historian. But, ironically, I've discovered that, when I travel, if I say I'm a Canadian (a lie), the chances that I get spat on significantly decrease than if I say I'm an American (the truth). So I ask you, why should I want to risk my neck for people who hate me? The Europeans don't want me to be there unless they are afraid that, when Russia is finished with Georgia, they're next.
 
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I've not read much about it yet. Just caught a bit on WPR.
I did see that Condeleeza Rice and Dick Cheney have criticized it.

But they should talk.
They did the same thing in Iraq (and Afghanistan).

Also,
I would just like to note that a number of years ago, maybe even before Bush II came into power in the US, there were some articles in Covert Action Quarterly, about possible US (or "western" [whatever that means]) interest in oil/gas pipelines. In order to avoid Russia, one possible route going through this area headed west. The other somewhat infamously going south through Afghanistan (Unocal was the interested oil company that almost got its corporate charter revoked for doing business with the Taliban).

2nd also,
I believe NATO is a cold war relic. Its reasons for existing: the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact no longer existing themselves.
 
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Then why are they threatening a nuclear strike if we install a missile shield? This is a somewhat rhetorical question, though. I imagine that they are using it as an excuse to escalate the ongoing tensions and give themselves more excuses to take hardline anti-Western moves.

No they are trying to extract the most they can from the international system. What gets me is the Neo-Soviet image you keep trying to portray. This isn't 1962; the Russian Federation needs Europe in the long run. Europe buys most of the gas, and does much of its trade with. Its the reason why the country has rebounded from the lows in the 1990s. In the future Russia's demographics and economic outlook is very poor. By acting strong now, they are trying to ensure the future territorial integrity of their country.

Tell that to the French, in specific. Throughout the 1990s, blocking the United States was the A-#1 strategy of the French president. Everything we attempted to do, the French president was there trying to block us in the UN and NATO. Granted, the French to not represent the whole of the European community, but it really starts to get irksome when someone who is supposedly your ally starts to hinder you. That was Chirac's entire career as French president--he got more support from the French the more he tried to stop the US, because the French didn't like the US "telling them what to do."

That is a complete fabrication. When Chirac entered office in 1996 he attempted a rapproachment with the United States over NATO. It revolved around giving France command of NATO Southern Command (AFSOUTH.) This would be a first step for the French rejoining the military council. For a variety of reasons, Clinton rejected it. Feeling snubbed, Chirac pushed for the creation of a European security identity, which led to the 1998 Anglo-French St. Malo Declaration. However they participated in a wide range of operations; Deliberate Force in Bosnia, the no Fly zone in Iraq until 1997, and Allied force in Kosovo. Yeah they placed caveats on their activities, but no state gives any other unconditional support in any operation.

Iraq seriously derailed Franco-American relations and for good reason. France was willing to support the U.S. position if it was done within the U.N. Framework. However, the Bush Administration didn't want to go down that route. While the Europeans can be excessive in their concerns, this was one case where they were justified. For one, Europeans and particularly France had extensive experience with Arab countries. They also had knowledge of the difficulties involved in Nation building, since they were presently engaged in such activities; the U.S. really wasn't. It wasn't anti Americanism. Also 73% of French and 65% of Germans supported the intervention into Afghanistan as cited by Shapiro and Gordon in their 2005 book Allies at war. So the discordance Iraq was based on real grievance against the operation itself, not some vague anti americanism as you claim.

Finally, in 2006 Chirac once again pushed for a rapprochement with the United States, which bore fruit, as evidenced by Alliot's statement. France dropped their objection on a wide variety of US and NATO issues, like training exercises in Africa. Many of the trends that Sarkozy is being credited for are actually the fruits of Chirac's presidency.

I've spoken to Europeans, mostly Germans, French, and English to be specific. And the bulk of them felt exactly what I said--the United States is an upstart nation that is using its military muscle to exert hegemonic power, and they resent it. I've gotten this from their very mouths in serious political discussions. "Why do we need American soldiers on our soil? Yankee go home."

Yeah, I've lived in these countries, spoken to regular people as well as policy elites. I've also watched this issue for quite some time; not simply what's occurred since the beginning of the Iraq war. Your characterization of situation is not borne out by the facts. Lets look at Germany, the most "anti american" of the big European Three. In 1993 62% of Germans viewed the United States as the guarantor of international peace and security. This only dropped to below 50% due to the fall out of the Iraq war. However the number of Germans who expressed themselves as "anti american" has remained constant at 25%. Far from the "Bulk of Europeans" you claim that are against the United States.

And as for the World Wars, read about the chain of command, and read about how many Americans died in the European theater because of British and French generals during both wars. The British and French wanted to use Americans the same as they had the Aussies at Gallipoli.

Excuse me? Almost every historian agreed that Pershing was absolutely obstinate to any request made by Allied commanders, and was heavily criticized for not listening to their advice. Pershing didn't release American units to reinforce cracking Anglo-French units during the Spring 1918 German offensive, when allied Commanders were pleading for reinforcements. Moreover, his refusal to parcel out American units to operate with the battle hardened allied units, was based on an unsubstantiated belief in the superiority of the "American Way of War"

As a result thousands of American soldiers were sent to their deaths in massed infantry attacks reminiscent of the ill fated French offensive at the beginning of the war, like at the Battle of Soission where 12,000 AEF troops were killed in a poorly conceived and executed attack. While there were cases where the French commanders did not operate well with U.S. Troops, causing unnecessary deaths, Pershing's refusal to listen to their advice, assistance or pleas caused far more casualties, and almost the loss of the entire war effort.

When I say we fought for the wrong side, I say it because the "Great War for Democracy" ended up punishing a fledgeling German democracy for what the previous (and ousted) monarch had done--and punished them so well, that they created Hitler. Without Versailles, there would never have been an Nazi Party. Thanks.

Utterly Debatable. Michael Geyer's piece in Peter Paret's Makers of Modern Strategy makes it clear that xenophobia, including anti semitism were critical aspects of German society during the war years, Hindenberg particularly when and Ludendorff assumed command. It ensured high levels of ideological cohesion among soldiers using new strategies, and greater productivity within society. It created the idea of Kulturkrieg, and the apocalyptic war. The roots of the Nazi party was founded in the first world war. Letting Germany win may have set it down the same path.

Hence, when I see things like Russia pulling the tricks they are, I get nervous. I get nervous because I feel like a bad war is better than a worse peace (I'm paraphrasing Plutarch here, I believe). I also feel as if the Europeans view the United States similar to how the Delian League viewed the "Athenian Empire" during the fifth century BC. Ironically, the US "inherited" its empire in much the same manner--through our victories in a devastating war against an aggressive enemy. Also ironically, the Cold War is a lot like the maneuverings of Athens and Sparta during that same epoch. Interesting how we are developing into the same old set of tensions as we had been in.

Yeah if we stretch historical comparisons to a point where we just assign names to various actors.

But, ironically, I've discovered that, when I travel, if I say I'm a Canadian (a lie), the chances that I get spat on significantly decrease than if I say I'm an American (the truth). So I ask you, why should I want to risk my neck for people who hate me?

You're the one citing Thucydides and the History of the Peloponnesian War, why don't you work it out.

And as a final point, European countries are willing to defend Georgia, just yesterday Angela Merkel stated that Georgia can join NATO. This follows comments by Nicolas Sarkozy warning Russia to respect Georgia's territory. Not quite the cheese eating surrender monkeys you make them out to be.
 
Revoke The 2014 Winter Olympics From Russia

A move is now underway to punish Russia for its barbaric invasion of Georgia by revoking the 2014 Winter Olympic Games from Sochi.

For more info and an online petition:

Revoke The 2014 Olympic Games From Russia!
 
Actually President Medvedev has declared in the meeting with my President(Bashar
Al Asad) that Georgia has some internal problems, Russia has punishing ....

The relationship between Syria and Russia is very strong
 
How popular is Mr.G.M.Saakasvili the President from Georgia, by his own people?

He studied and worked quite some time in America. His wife is Dutch, so at their home they speak English. Ukraïne and Georgia both want to become members of the European Union. Not very diplomatic, much more patience is needed.

I quess that we shouldn't forget that it is not so long ago that Russia carefully opened its doors, by Gorbachov, ... to the West. That was a miracle!
 
Propaganda in Action

Here in the US we are led to believe by our media that it WAS Russia that started the "war", but if one does some research, one comes to find that it WAS Georgia who started it and Russia was well prepared with intelligence as to when it would happen. I wonder if the fact that there were 1,000 Israeli "advisors", 1,000 US "advisors", and 1,000 US marines in country might have had something to do with it?

Make no mistake about it, it was all about the control of the gas and oil pipelines coming out of the Caspian Region. Western oil companies, including Isreaeli firms, probably desire to route oil pipelines out of the Caspian Region from Azurbaijan and the gas lines from Turkmenistan, which transit Georgia, through Turkey instead of hooking them up to Russian pipelines.

Jerusalem owns a strong interest in Caspian oil and gas pipelines that reach the Turkish port of Ceyham, rather than the Russian network. The oil would then flow to Israel's oil terminal at Ashkelon and on to it's Red Sea Port of Eilat. From there supertankers can carry gas and oil to the Far East (China and Japan?) through the Indian Ocean.

Does anyone really believe it was about independence for a small area of
Georgia? HA!




To give you an indication of the propaganda of the media here in the US, the above is an interview done by FOX (FAUX) News' Shepard Smith when he interviewed a 12 yr old girl from San Francisco who escaped the bombing while visiting relatives in Osettia. He expected to hear bad things about Russia and that it was the Russian's fault. Look at his surprise and his stuttering and quickly going to a commercial when they say Georgian troops started it. Also notice that he agrees to give them 30 seconds after the commercial, but quickly cuts them off when they start praising the Russian troops again for helping save them. The Aunt also is wise to say, "I know you don't want to hear this..." A perfect example of propaganda in action from the "Fair and Balanced news station who proudly proclaims "We report, you decide!".

You decide for yourself.
 
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Pachipro

Thank you. Yes, we all know that Georgia started these troubles.

President Saakasvili"s Dutch wife was in Holland a couple of days back, sent by her husband. And she pleaded on TV to get Georgia into the European Union as soon as possible. We all know that such an act is asking for trouble. It is all too early, much too early. The differences between East and West Europe are too big at this moment. It all takes time.
Thank you for the video.
 
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