What's new

Reading the gospels and asking questions about specific sentences

nedkelly

後輩
Joined
Mar 16, 2011
Messages
61
Reaction score
4
Sorry, I don’t feel qualified to comment on this usage of sareru. I have checked Wikipedia on Japanese translations of the bible. There are examples of the different translations. The Franciscans produced a bible translated from the original Greek and Hebrew in 1978 but it seems that other translations are from Latin or English. Hence the differences. Since you are going to the trouble of studying the Bible in Japanese, you might be interested in how translations can vary.
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Feb 22, 2008
Messages
15,169
Reaction score
2,133
I have a question about a sentence in my textbook:

そろそろお食事にされますか。"-Will you have a meal soon?"

I understand that されます is a more respectful form of します、but why is there に instead of を ? Is this the 'decide' usage of にする as in うどんにする "I'll have udon" ?  
That's right. Your interpretation is correct..(y)
 

Davide92

Kouhai
Joined
May 8, 2017
Messages
64
Reaction score
1
Hi guys! I've been working on the difference between 知っている and 分かる. I understand a few points but probably not the whole picture. Could you help me out with these sentences?


1a) これは誰の鞄か分かりますか。"Do you know whose bag this is?" (from my textbook)

Based on my understanding, with 分かりますか there is an expectation that the addressee should know the answer, something like "Do you remember whose bag this is/was?" Maybe I could use this sentence if I hang out with a small group of friends, some of them leave but forget a bag, and I ask the remaining friends whose bag it is? (I expect that they probably know).

1b) これは誰の鞄か知っていますか。 would be along the lines of "Do you know, by any chance, whose bag this is?" Maybe I could ask this question to a stranger when I find a bag on the ground?

2) 出席するかどうか分かりません. “I don't know whether I will attend or not” (from a website).

My guess would be that 分かりません is used here because we use 分かる when a decision is involved (“I haven't decided yet”).

Is this correct? Thanks.
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Feb 22, 2008
Messages
15,169
Reaction score
2,133
Basic concept of わかる is a process to make an uncertain thing clearer by using the subject's knowledge or experience, whereas 知る is to get new/unknown information from outside. Think about a math question. When the questioner asks 答えがわかりますか, they expect the addressee to solve the question and get the correct answer. On the other hand, if the question is 答えを知っていますか, the questioner asks if the addressee already knows the correct answer (e.g., the addressee has ever solved the same question before).

As for your examples, #1a can be used even for a case that the addressee has never seen the bag, for instance, there is a name tag on the bag that the questioner cannot read, but they expect that the addressee might be able to read it. #1b doesn't work well in this case since the questioner expect that the addressee might know the owner. The meanings of the two expressions are partially overlapping, so sometimes they are interchangeable, though.

2)
わかりません means that the schedule is uncertain, whereas 知りません suggests that whether the speaker will attend or not is decided by someone else, not the speaker. They just don't know their schedule. (Note that わかりません works well also in this case since it's "uncertain", too.)
 

Davide92

Kouhai
Joined
May 8, 2017
Messages
64
Reaction score
1
Thanks for your reply Toritoribe-san! I understand your explanation and examples. This seems such a vast topic, with so many different situations where this could apply. I watched a half-an-hour-long video by JapaneseAmmo no Misa-san as well as read an article on Imabi on this very topic, yet I don't feel confident yet... Do you have any other good sources to recommend? Or is this one of those things that just take a lot of time and exposure to the language?
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Feb 22, 2008
Messages
15,169
Reaction score
2,133
is this one of those things that just take a lot of time and exposure to the language?
Yes I think so. You would gradually know the difference in meaning/use, just like は vs. が things.
Imabi is a good site, by the way. I think it explains many grammatical issues quite well.
 

Davide92

Kouhai
Joined
May 8, 2017
Messages
64
Reaction score
1
Hi guys, could you help me construe this sentence?

a) これは必要な時に自由に使って下さい。

From what I understand, adjectival noun + だ only works at the end of a sentence, while before a noun we must use な. So, if I want to modify 時 with the sentence これは必要だ, this becomes これは必要な時. My question is: in a), how do we know if 時 is modified by the entire sentence これは必要だ or just by the adjectival noun 必要? I feel the meaning would be somewhat different:

case 1: 時 modified by the sentence: -> In times when this is necessary, use it freely.
case 2: 時 only modified by the adjectival noun: -> (As for this), in times of necessity (literally: in necessary times), use it freely.

So, which one is it in such cases?
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Feb 22, 2008
Messages
15,169
Reaction score
2,133
That's case 2. Only 必要な modifies 時. は is the key. は rules the entire sentence, so これは(= topicalized object これを)is connected to 使って下さい.

は can't be used in modifying clauses. If これ is the subject of 必要だ/必要な, it should be これ必要な時.
 

Davide92

Kouhai
Joined
May 8, 2017
Messages
64
Reaction score
1
That makes perfect sense.. I should have known this one. Thanks a lot Toritoribe-san!
 

Davide92

Kouhai
Joined
May 8, 2017
Messages
64
Reaction score
1
Hi guys, I would like to ask one more question about the -te iru form. I found the following in a lesson about making reservations:

a) ~ の名前で予約が入っていると思うのですが。
b) ~ の名前で予約を入れています。

a) makes perfect sense to me. Just like 来ている means 'has come' (result), 入っている means 'has entered', hence they now have the reservation. b) seems a bit strange though. I learned that transitive verbs usually use てあります to express result, so I expect either a) or

c) ~ の名前で予約が入れてあります。

I had a look at what Toritoribe-san taught me on this very same thread (February 20th), when we talked about the 'experience' usage of ている. I just don't think it applies here, because the context is about the result.

Thank you for your help.
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Feb 22, 2008
Messages
15,169
Reaction score
2,133
The -te iru form of some transitive verbs can express the state, for instance, 店を開(あ)けている is a state as same as 店が開(あ)いている (or 車を家の前に止めている vs. 車が家の前に止まっている). ~てある can be also used for these verbs, so 予約が入れてあります (or 店を開けてある and 車を家の前に止めてある) is correct, too. It's said that ~てある has a nuance that it's done previously for a purpose, comparing to ~ている.
 

Davide92

Kouhai
Joined
May 8, 2017
Messages
64
Reaction score
1
That's interesting, thanks Toritoribe-san! In my example b) the understood subject is the speaker. Is 店を開けている a complete sentence or is a subject usually added? Also, shouldn't が be used with the てある form ( 店が開けてある and 車が家の前に止めてある) ?
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Feb 22, 2008
Messages
15,169
Reaction score
2,133
In my example b) the understood subject is the speaker.
Yes, that's right, but note that the subject/speaker can be both the guest/customer (the one who made the reservation) and clerk (the one who accepted the reservation).

Is 店を開けている a complete sentence or is a subject usually added?
The subject is usually interpreted as the owner or clerk/employee of the shop, so it can be omitted. There is no problem to add it, of course.
e.g.
あそこ(=あの店)は、今日はもう店を開けている。
うちは日曜日でも店を開けています。

Also, shouldn't が be used with the てある form ( 店が開けてある and 車が家の前に止めてある) ?
Many textbooks would mention that が is used to indicate the object in ~てある form, but actually, both が and を are used nowadays. Here's a related post.
 

Davide92

Kouhai
Joined
May 8, 2017
Messages
64
Reaction score
1
Ah, that has cleared up quite a few things for me. Thanks a lot, I appreciate it.
 

Davide92

Kouhai
Joined
May 8, 2017
Messages
64
Reaction score
1
Hi guys! Could you help me with this sentence?

お次でお待ちの方、こちらのレジへどうぞ。

Apparently this is something a store clerk would say when they want you to pay at a different cash register: "Next customer waiting on line, please (come) to this register".

The first part up to the comma is very messy for me in terms of grammar:

-I guessで here is not the particle, but the 連用形 of だ (I always have trouble telling those two apart...)
- お待ちの方: I've never seen this form, is this an equivalent of お待ちである方 ( The person who is waiting) ?

I've read an article on manual keigo on Wikipedia and they mention a similar form, お次のお客様, so that may be relevant here (Manual keigo - Wikipedia), although I have no problems with お次のお客様 in terms of grammar.
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Feb 22, 2008
Messages
15,169
Reaction score
2,133
-I guessで here is not the particle, but the 連用形 of だ (I always have trouble telling those two apart...)
で is a particle to indicate the location of action there. You can think that that's actually (列の)お次の位置でお待ちの方.

- お待ちの方: I've never seen this form, is this an equivalent of お待ちである方 ( The person who is waiting) ?
"お + -masu stem of verbs + の方" is a polite way of saying "person(or people) who does/is doing".
e.g.
お持ちの方(=持っている人)
the one who has something

お探しの方(=探している人)
two usages are possible in this case
(~を)お探しの方
the one who is looking for something

(あなたが)お探しの方
the one you are looking for
 

Davide92

Kouhai
Joined
May 8, 2017
Messages
64
Reaction score
1
I see, I was really off-base with this one... thank you Toritoribe-san for your explanation and clear examples !
 
Top