Re: POLL - Can South Korea militarily defeat Japan?

Lee Young hoon's view point made sensation in my faborite Internet community "Defence Korea". We argued each other. Me too.

First, Japan's colonization made Present korea's development.

Why? First of all, Cause of this, was made by Western scholar.
In the world, What nation that had modern colony history accomplish economical innovation? only two(not Singapore(nation of city and chinese emigrant)) Taiwan, and korea, Other nation of asia, africa are annoyed by poverty and civil war, rotting.

why only taiwan and south korean made miracle? western scholar shouted!!!
"Colonization made colony to modernizing colony!!!! Viva!!!"
specially, England scholar said that. They said "Ireland modernizing made by england's colonization"
But, In Most of colonial case, Colonial vestiges made Civil war, subordinate economy, military clique(was maden by ruler of colony), rotting... so Many past colony nation's people still live in worst situation.(why do sudan people killing each other? they are cruel originally?)


1. Colonization made infra to Colony. so Colonization of japan helped Korea's development.

It's not true. why? immediately after Indefendance of Korea, South korea's infra that was maden for colony age were destroyed clearly. and originally South korea's colonial infra was very few. There was Core infra in north korea. So For Early days, Korea's Infra was terriable. But better Infra of north korea was bad too.(In korea war, USA armor unit was slow because North korea's Infra was Terriable.)

In result, We can know Colonial Infra did not help korea's Development.


2. statistics of Colonial age was Very good!!! statistic Record was perfect!!!!
It was true. When korea was colony of japan, Korea's rate of economic growth was better than before. It's very Fun.
For example, When Kongo was not colony, They did not have calculated Economy and industry. But After Kongo became colony, White master made many rubber Farms and railroad, harbor facilities. Kongo people's life and possibility of moderniztion falled.
But Their Economic growth's rate was Fantastic!!!!

professor Lee said "At that Time, emigrant growth's rate was very high. It mean Economic development." It's true?? In 1840, Numerous Irish must became emigrant because famine and England's tyranny. It could be evidence of Economic Development?


professor Lee said "Korean say "Japan robbed 40% of korean nonreported land" but It's not true!! Korean farmer's land was reported 99.5%"

But Our site's amateur historian "Kim young u" Critisized that
"at that time, Almost Korean state-owned land was only ostensible name of real land of private ownership. Professor Lee look away from this fact, and He say that thereis No concern between Robbing state-owned land and Robbing land of private ownership. We can know that He have no historical vison by this"

I'm student of business administration. In my lecture "Marketing research", Proffessor say a maxim "statistic is very useful information. But It has high risk of purposeful use. It's Very Dangerous."

Professor Lee is economist on statistic basis. But only Statistic data can be basis of purposeful use and wrong data. So We must research number and word all.
He cannot be Evidance of "Japan's colonization helped South korea's development"

I'm Sorry about my ugly english. I want to say more, and deeper, But My english is too bad..

And All korean do not say "*****!! Dog ****!!! Burn Flag of japan!!!"
It's same that all japanese do not say "Our annex was lawful, no Sex slave!!"

I agree economic datas can be selected and used by pickers' intentions,but they still can show and explain many things rationally.

I do not think Koreans modern economic growth stemed from the Japanese reign of Korea for 36 years.
But I think modernization of Korea was done during that period.

Plus there is one important fact-the population of Korean peninsula became double after 36 years of reign-whatever Japanese intention to reign Korea was-we should agree with this fact. Thanks to modernization that planted by Japanese reign,Korea was able to escape from the dark shadow aged result of Chosun dynasty.

Some Korean say 'its all because of the Japanese benefits"
Yes I think so too-but we should agree the result of modernization and know that its the time of war in the world globally.
Japanese people were suffering from conscription,hard labor,hungers etc etc too. But its true that they were usually in the position of harassment over Koreans.

Listen -I am not defending Japanese reign of Korean peninsula for 36 years and their treatment of Korea as for the second citizens.

But If Korea was not part or colony of Japan-would Russia have given more benefits to us? Some Koreans say we were able to complete modernization without foreign involvement. But would have it been easy for Chosun dynasty's yangbans to make national plan for modernization?
Very doubtful. Its not history but just "what if" game.

History is the fact happend in the past.
We can use history for judging the pastment but I want to put more importance to prevent miserable things in the past from repeating in future.

名無し said:

Army Disciplines Officers over Human Feces Scandal

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Its funny how they're discipling officers who swear, but when it comes to beatings or floggings they don't give much damn about it. Hell, my tactical officer swears all the time, and the US military is not even half as hardcore as the ROK army. I mean what?

Does anyone know what the Korean military's current position is in physical abuse? I don't hear much about physical abusive officers getting punishment.

"Thanks to modernization that planted by Japanese reign,Korea was able to escape from the dark shadow aged result of Chosun dynasty."
haha....

First, In position of population of Korean peninsula, How do you think about that? Do you Know population explosion of gynecologist cleanness? Only New thinking of Ignaz Semmelweis made world population rate to very high. Modern age's Population growth was very high. Only information of cleanness, any nation could did it. And, Chosun dynasty had Modernize plan and was executing at that time.

and Japan colonial government suppressed colonial korean company. Colonial official that joined This politic, "Kunimoto, ﾅ｡ﾂ?窶認尙ﾅ陳ｪ" writed
"For removing all Hureisenjin(不ﾃｧ窶披?朗ﾂ人) originally, For making korean's docile mind, We must destroy Korean's economic basis, and pressure their economy, and Make korean's life to ruin. In result, If Korean become life of eating the bread of idleness, We can get chance for ﾅ?vﾂ青ｳ窶慊ｯ窶ｰﾂｻ"

second, In Chosun dynasty, Western missionary said,
"If poverty mean "lack of living necessaries", Chosun people never be poor"
If you can see eating of past Chosun's people, You will be surprized. In same time before annex, the common korean lived better than common japanese.

Sorry ending of this writing, I have an urgent business. see you later...

lemiel said:

second, In Chosun dynasty, Western missionary said,
"If poverty mean "lack of living necessaries", Chosun people never be poor"
If you can see eating of past Chosun's people, You will be surprized. In same time before annex, the common korean lived better than common japanese.

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I read a few of the missionaries' writings about their experinces in Chosun and I never found the part what you are mentioning.

Could you please show me the source?
What did they eat and who told "the common korean lived better than common japanese" ? Now this is very important.

I seriously hope you would go back soon and post the source.
Thank you.

Lemiel, I honestly don't see why you turned this thread into another endless "Korea vs Japan" discussion. Can we please get back on topic here? Lemiel can post the source, but if you are going to continue the discussion after that, please do not come back to this topic unless you are further commenting on the issue over which army is more powerful today, not in 1910. Thank you.

Ok. I do not say this topic any more. I understand your worry.

only I write this source of "Chosun common people's meal.."

Sinoda osamu said that Chian(窶督ｾ) people had 2 meal generally in a day.
李ﾅ段ﾃ｢l's ﾂ《窶愬 錄ﾂ》(1617) said that Japan people had 2 meal in a day.
靈窶ｺﾃ 窶愿ｬ窶｢ﾂｽ窶｢ﾂｶﾅｽﾂ <窶伉ｰﾅ胆窶廃窶ｰﾂｺ窶ｹL>(1741∼1928) <ﾂ渉ｬﾂ宗ﾅ胆窶廃窶ｰﾂｺ窶ｹL>(1819∼1883) said,
korean adult male eat 420cc of one meal. and average korean eating volume of meal was 300cc. and three meals of one day ware eaten by korean common people.

korean scholar "lee ik" in ﾂ青ｯﾅ津?#20735;說 said,
"Forigner know that Korean eat too many, Some wealthy house eat seven meals in a day."

at that times, In reports of Spain and portugal missionaries In japan
they expressed chosun nation of big eater.

Korean, In spite of small penisular, most of common korean had more meal than other national people. korea experienced famine. But Korean common people's lives were better than neighborhood. It's only source for your question, stupidumboy. Not my opinion.

and, Present korean do not eat like past korean any more.....

Don't be sorry, lemiel. In fact, you can start one of these topics in a seperate discussion, but this was something else.

@lemiel

Thank you very much for your reference,

Yes as you mentioned,eating volume and frequencies can be used for judgement of living standard of the countries in the past. Actually Koreans are the biggest eaters in Asia even today.

But you should also know that some of the books written by missionaries,diplomats and merchants who traveled Korea in 19 C told their findings that seemd far from living pleasantly and decently from Korean society and Korean people.

What happened to the pro-Japanese collaborators in North AND South Korea after the end of the occupation?

to stupidumboy, Yes, They said sometimes "korea was ugly..." But, They said generally same to other nation in other culture. Their thoughts consisted some cultural prejudice. Japan and China, blah blah... too.

If we measure living standard of nation's past, We need dividing writng into fact and feeling. almost of them writed "all eastern people's lives are terrible." they thought that eastern people were babarian. In middle age, Best ugly living standard in the world may be european in fact.


to Hiroshi.

I do not know "what happened to the pro-Japanese collaborators" well.
In south korea, punishing to pro-Japanese collaborator cannot do because USA military government needed their experience and skill about administration. In north korea, Condition was same. They needed pro-Japanese collaborators.

But, In south korea, First President Lee needed cooperation of them and stronger political basis. so Positive and flagrant pro-Japanese collaborator could remain their vested rights. In fact, we needed them; police, official, enterpriser, soldier. But I think that President's private political decision was fault

In north korea, Government confiscated pro-Japanese collaborators's property and land. It could be power of Government and popular support. I do not like North korea's leaders.. but only this decision was good thing...

Now, South korea is examining Past history consited Colonial. Its goals are Knowing correctly and preventing same shame.

Lemiel, I see. I know that pro-Japanese were brutally treated in post-war China, especially in the communist controlled areas.

resolute123 said:

Japan has no military Special Operations unit.

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I beg to differ. Japan does have special forces in the JSDF. I only know that the Ground and the Maritime Self-Defense Forces as SOFs.

• 
  1st Airborne Brigade - Paratroopers
  Western Army Infantry Regiment - Rangers (Notice my sig!)
  Special Boarding Unit - Navy SEAL-influenced
  Maritime Interception Team - Not too sure, but trained in maritime tactics

Just to let everyone know, the 1st Airborne Brigade and the Western Army Infantry Regiment are the only SOFs to have an offensive capability in the JGSDF.

china against all orient

the problem should not be a war (?) btwn Japan an Korea
but btwn west + Japan+S.Korea and China that is alway ready to help
N.Korea....
As you all could note that China is always out of all Iraq Iran Palestina...
she is just wacthing....from a window....just see what happen
they have atomic bomb a milions of soldiers...perhaps armaments actually
are not so sofisticated....but as the economy is growing so fast
probably in the next 20 years or less they will be competitive with Us
and all others jp kr eu.......also in army air force and navy....
are you agree?

stupidumboy said:

I am not very into military things,I have no intelligince about Japanese SDF.
so I cannot compare.
but what I know about ROK military is that the ROK army had very good record in Vietnamese war,I forgot the exact number but moderately remember that the record was better than the US soldiers in Vietnam.
"the Koreans accounted for 192 Viet Cong killed as against only eleven Koreans"
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/Vietnam/allied/ch06.htm#p3
About the ROKairforce,I served for ROK airforce but I do not know where we stand.
About the ROK navy,most recently ,we had the 100 % hitting record and that was the best among the partipants countries in Tandem Thrust 2004 naval training in Guam.
And the ROK navy was the only participant who had no naval ship trouble during the training.
http://www.pacom.mil/news/news.shtml
cheers

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Vietnam War - Wikipedia
south
Casualties
South Vietnamese dead: 230,000
South Vietnamese wounded: 300,000
US dead: 58,226
US wounded: 153,303
Civilian (total Vietnamese): c. 2–4 million
north Casualties
Dead: 1,100,000
Wounded: 600,000
Civilian (total Vietnamese): c. 2–4 million
based on the casuality of vietnam war, I would say that korean's performance is average, it's barely above overall average, and the question is, what type of soldier did Korean send? elite/veteran/ordinary/new recruit? and what type of equipment? American/ worse than American/ equal to south vietnam/even worse?
every time discovery channel have a show about battles in vietnam, the casualties of north vietan is unknow but "at least ten times more (than American casualty)"

Here's a recent article about Japan's military strength compared to that of Korea. This article makes it clear that Japan's military is superior compared to Koreas. Bear in mind that Japan's military isn't a normal one yet.

I'll also post it in a new thread so that it's easier to find.

Japan's Military Superior Say Experts

AUGUST 14, 2006 03:07

The admiral (Dokgo Young-jae starred) in the film ﾂ"The Korean Peninsulaﾂ" featuring conflict with Japan says, ﾂ"The military strength of our navy is 30 percent that of Japan's,ﾂ" when he receives a call from the president (Ahn Seong-ki starred) just before a battle with Japan. However, he expresses fighting spirit, saying, ﾂ"We learned that numbers don't always control a war. If we have to defend, we will.ﾂ"

In August 2006, what if military conflict between Korea and Japan happens in reality, not in a film? Most professionals analyze that the difference between objective military strength will surely lead Korea to defeat.

First, in terms of naval strength according to military professionals, Japan's Naval Self-Defense Force is rated second in size worldwide. Japan is forth or fifth in composite naval strength, one of the nations with the strongest naval forces in the world.

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You can read the full article here.

Kon'nichiwa, I'm new here. yoroshiku onegai shimasu.
Back to the first question of Hiroshi66...
In my opinion, JSDF is stronger.
Our armer equipments are built in Japan :
For example, F15J is shorter range fighter than Korean F15K. But Our F15 are all made in Japan under licensed. We can maintain them easily. F2 viper ZERO is designed and built by Mitsubishi Industrial based F16.
Our main battle tank is also, Mitsubishi Type 90 carries a licensed copy of the Rheinmetall 120-mm smoothbore. This is the same gun that is mounted on the M1 Abrams and Leopard 2 tanks.
High quality airbourne early warning system :
Japan is one of operators of E2-hawkeye and E-767(AWACS). At least korea doesn't have today. Four Aegis ships are already placement on duty, and more 2 are comming soon.
Running them is very expensive. However, it's very important to build high tech system for early warning. If enemy reach the land of Japan, we never have a chance to survive.
Actually I think that both Japan and Korea won't win. Because Japan doesn't have landing means and Korea can't come accross the sea. Maybe Korean ground force is stronger than Japan, but Japanese naval force is superior.
How do you think?

hanachan said:

Kon'nichiwa, I'm new here. yoroshiku onegai shimasu.

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First let me say hello Hanachan and rather interesting first post and no less from a female as well.
Did some digging to find this thread, do you foresee Japan and S. Korea fighting a war against each other?

Thanks for reply, Obeika. Hajime mashite!
I don't think that Japan and South Korea fight a real war. And I believe that Japan never attack other nation any more. Of course we need the defense against the attack...
South Korea doesn't attack Japan, too. They have the reason that they can't ignore Japan's economical power.
But I don't know whether S-Korea is still on our side if N-Korea attack Japan.
Anyway it's another problem, not Hiroshi66 asking.

Anyway it's another problem, not Hiroshi66 asking.

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How is that a problem?

I believe that was nothing more than a direct translation from Japanese to English. I think she meant that that whether S. Korea would come to Japan's aid if it were attacked by N. Korea is another question entirely, and one not related to the original question in any way at that.

what I meant... I have some doubt whether South Korea will be an especially enthusiastic partner of the US-Japan alliance.

Hiroshi66 said:

Well, as we know, prior to 1945, Japan was the top military power in Asia, and could defeat South Korea easily, as it did in 1910 and almost as it did in 1592-1598 (though they just took parts of the country, and withdrew with the death of Hideyoshi and because of gueirilla resistance). But today, without any American or foreign intervention, can South Korea military defeat Japan's Jietai?

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Are you an elementary schooler or junior high schooler?
Japan has "defeated" China and Russia, but NEVER Korea.
Hideyoshi's troop went to the Korean Peninsula for the battle with China, not Korea. The Korean Peninsula happened to be on their way .... (sigh)

To "defeat" Japan seems Koreans' only one dream.

Well, North Korea may defeat Japan with their nuclear bombs.
Wait until then.