Please read two seals from old scroll

Ger · 23 Nov 2020

Please read the two seals from this old kakejiku.
If uncertain an educated guess might help.
Mount Fuji is in the distance (not shown here).
Any clue as to the painter or the period of the painting?

nice gaijin · 23 Nov 2020

Ger said:
Please read the two seals from this old kakejiku.
If uncertain an educated guess might help.
Mount Fuji is in the distance (not shown here).
Any clue as to the painter or the period of the painting?

I'm terrible at reading artist chops, but this looks Chinese to me (drawing style, clothing, hairstyles, and the stool are my hints)

I'll add that they appear to be setting up a game of Go (围棋/圍棋, wéiqí in Chinese)

Ger · 23 Nov 2020

As far as I understand it, the scroll is Japanese, bought in Japan, likely depicting Chinese people.
I guess then they are historical figures or from a legend.
The furniture including the go table look Chinese indeed.
The far away landscape seems to feature a volcano I thought to be Fuji (attached).
If it's a Chinese scene It looks like being in the in the wrong place.
But I don't know how common volcanos are in old Chinese paintings.

nice gaijin · 23 Nov 2020

Fujisan is very distinct, and this doesn't look like it.

I maintain that it doesn't appear to be a Japanese painting, at least not a typical one.

Ger · 23 Nov 2020

In august I posted here a Japanese scroll that has Chinese furniture. It transpired to be Enma Daiō who is often depicted as having that around.
If the vulcano does not look like Fuji that might be on purpose. After all Fuji would not fit in a Chinese scene.
The thread on Enma:

Please read signature and seal

Please read signature and seal from a kakejiku. Added a color variation that might help. Only partly solutions or guesses are welcome too.

jref.com

Ger · 23 Nov 2020

For an old painting I think it is curious painting a man playing a woman. At least that's what it looks like to me...
Would it refer to legendary or historical figures?

nice gaijin · 24 Nov 2020

Ger said:
For an old painting I think it is curious painting a man playing a woman. At least that's what it looks like to me...
Would it refer to legendary or historical figures?

What makes you think that?

also, what makes you think it's Japanese? This is a different chop than in your other thread.

Ger · 24 Nov 2020

I am not certain at all it is Japanese, it just was my first thought. Having bought it from a Japanese dealer in Japan who did not describe it as Chinese. Then I have seen Japanese scrolls that depict Chinese people from legends, mythology or described as "Tang figures". And there is my experience with the scroll above. Since I am just an amateur I don't know when which applies. Also I could not find ancient Chinese paintings showing volcanos, but that could well be google not showing them on my choice of keywords.

In the end my concern is not so much whether it is Chinese or Japanese, but what the seals tell. And that might settle the former problem as well.

Ger · 24 Nov 2020

Assuming the seal type characters are more or less te same in Chinese and Japanes for these old scrolls (true?), I tried to find them using this Chinese site:

小篆识别器_篆书识别器_篆书部件查字

It works in Windows and only using Internet Explorer.
First download this true type font:

http://www.guoxuedashi.com/zidian/xz/swxz.ttf

Then click the file and hit install in the appearing window.

Now back to the search window.
The right part shows seal style character parts.
I chose 山 and 艸 apearing in the top seal of the kakejiku:

小篆识别器_篆书识别器_篆书部件查字

That gave no satisfactory results.

Then I chose 禾 apearing in front of the bottom seal character of the kakejiku.
The true type version misses the downward stroke to the left, but other seals suggest they are the same:

小篆识别器_篆书识别器_篆书部件查字

That gave no satisfactory result either.

It might work using other old style parts, but I did not recognize more.
Are there other free sites that let you determine seal characters?

Majestic · 24 Nov 2020

The left side of the top seal is indeed 山. I don't know if it is 山 by itself, or if it 山 used as a radical for a kanji like 嶋. I would guess it is being used by itself, however it is slightly smaller and compressed in the seal. If it is deliberately small, and is meant to depict 山 as a radical, it makes the right side harder to guess (when actually it should really narrow down the candidate list). The right side to me looks something like 菖 in tensho-tai (seal script). The top part is the radical for grass, as you suspect.

The bottom seal right side is a mystery. The left side looks similar to 堀 without the dirt radical. So together it looks like

山菖
堀？

Ger · 24 Nov 2020

Majestic said:
The left side of the top seal is indeed 山. I don't know if it is 山 by itself, or if it 山 used as a radical for a kanji like 嶋. I would guess it is being used by itself, however it is slightly smaller and compressed in the seal. If it is deliberately small, and is meant to depict 山 as a radical, it makes the right side harder to guess (when actually it should really narrow down the candidate list). The right side to me looks something like 菖 in tensho-tai (seal script). The top part is the radical for grass, as you suspect.

The bottom seal right side is a mystery. The left side looks similar to 堀 without the dirt radical. So together it looks like

山菖
堀？

Thanks for your search, indeed they might be four characters in all.
The idea for 禾 bottom left came from the attached image bottom left.
But I could not find it with 尸.

Or is it a variation of 呑 having the radical 口 on top. Its position is not always fixed. I have a coin with 棋 having 木 on top.

A problem with the Chinese site is that apparently it only considers survived characters. The obsolete ones can only be represented as an image. Using my Ueda's Daijiten is tedious but without result.
Although it might be 屈.

Ger · 24 Nov 2020

Actually I found the top right character by inserting 艸 and 日 on the Chinese site.
It listed 萅 and the seal type is exactly the same. See attachment.
This character, 萅, is an ancient form of 春 says the wiktionary:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/萅
That would make the top seal read: 萅山 or spring mountain.
Looks like a title, but could it be a painter's name?

Ger · 24 Nov 2020

Shunzan is a name indeed, e.g. Katsukawa Shunzan (勝川春山)

Collections Online | British Museum

www.britishmuseum.org

Majestic · 24 Nov 2020

Yes, its the painter's name. I think you are right, it does look like 春山. Good job. The bottom left would also be a name.
In fact, there is a similar "Chinese beauty" painting of his here

（古画）勝川春山(かつかわしゅんざん) 「美人図」尺一寸 | 掛け軸・日本画の販売ギャラリー黎（ギャラリーレイ）

作者勝川春山(かつかわしゅんざん) 作品名「美人図」尺一寸技法日本画形態軸装サイズ絹本尺

www.gallery-rei.com

Unfortunately it doesn't have seals on it. At least, none that might be readily matched with yours.

Ger · 25 Nov 2020

The Chinese beauty is great in that it shows a similar style in painting figures. The British Museum landscape by Katsukawa Shunzan I mentioned above has seals, but they are not recognizable. I had thought it might not be this Shunzan because 勝川 does not look like the bottom seal, but it could be an alternative name? It says his real name is 大関. For what it's worth I had already thought to have recognized 門 bottom right, but that did not help.
Your example does make it likely to me they are the same painter.

Ger · 25 Nov 2020

Ger said:
The British Museum landscape by Katsukawa Shunzan I mentioned above has seals, but they are not recognizable.

Correction: That site shows his ukiyo-e prints.

Katsukawa is the name of the school he belonged to:

Katsukawa school - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ger · 26 Feb 2023

Ger said:
Assuming the seal type characters are more or less te same in Chinese and Japanes for these old scrolls (true?), I tried to find them using this Chinese site:

小篆识别器_篆书识别器_篆书部件查字

It works in Windows and only using Internet Explorer.
First download this true type font:

http://www.guoxuedashi.com/zidian/xz/swxz.ttf
Then click the file and hit install in the appearing window.

Now back to the search window.
The right part shows seal style character parts.
I chose 山 and 艸 apearing in the top seal of the kakejiku:

小篆识别器_篆书识别器_篆书部件查字
That gave no satisfactory results.

Then I chose 禾 apearing in front of the bottom seal character of the kakejiku.
The true type version misses the downward stroke to the left, but other seals suggest they are the same:

小篆识别器_篆书识别器_篆书部件查字
That gave no satisfactory result either.

It might work using other old style parts, but I did not recognize more.
Are there other free sites that let you determine seal characters?

This went to:

小篆识别器_篆书识别器_篆书部件查字

and works all right in firefox (at least).

Please read two seals from old scroll

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