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[Kyoko_desu]

「はな」に変わったら、分からないと思う。

What about "kame" （亀、かめ）, "kami" （神、紙、髪）, or "ame" （飴、雨）?

 

[J44xm]

分かっています。

①「橋をわたる」
②「箸で食う」

どうですか。

 

[MrWabu]

What about "kame" （亀、かめ）, "kami" （神、紙、髪）, or "ame" （飴、雨）?

I would not have known any of these. ただはしのイントネーションたけが知ってる。
Whenever the topic of intonation came up in class, hashi was always used, so I always remembered it. I visualised the intonation, so bridge is like a suspension bridge:
__/--\__ (starts low, then goes up)
And when picking up food with chopsticks, they point down (start high then drop). I never remembered the intonation rules of those other words, would like to hear them
Regarding 橋と箸... would it depend on your accent as to how you recognise them? I seem to recall an episode of Trick (トリック) where someone from Osaka said they saw some 箸 and the person they were talking to understood that as 橋.

 

[Glenn]

What about "kame" （亀、かめ）, "kami" （神、紙、髪）, or "ame" （飴、雨）?

言うてはる人によってちゃってくんやない？

Hehe, sorry if that doesn't make any sense, or even if it's just awful.

 

[Cue]

LOL Glenn! xD
You already master your Kyoto -ben!? xD

But yeah, I agree with you. I have terrible pronunciation on those words, I often gets corrected.
Especially, 柿 and 牡蠣, 雨 and 飴 are difficult for me to distinguish.

 

[Glenn]

You mean it was right? Awesome! And, as I'm sure you can tell from that answer, no, I haven't mastered it.
身につけてるどころか、その文を作るのはやっとのことだったんですよ！

Yeah, and in Kansai there's an accent pattern that doesn't exist in Kanto -- 核のない言葉がありますね。 There are words in Kansai that don't have an accent fall.

[Edit] Oh yeah, I forgot, there are also words that have an accent fall in the middle of a mora (拍, or hiragana, if you want to think of it like that).

 

[Tomii515]

Ahhh! I listened to it 10 times, I can't see the difference! =o I don't know, but did you pronounced "hashi" differently? Hmmm, I'm confused, but I love listening to you speak Japanese Kyoko ^^

-Tommy

 

[Kyoko_desu]

Originally Posted by J44xm
①「橋をわたる」
②「箸で食う」

John-san, you are right, congrats! And Toby-san, thank you so much for the perfect explanation! The Yamasa Institute must be a good Japanese teaching school~.

I said:
(1)こんなに長い橋は、今までに見たことがないよ。 (hashi=bridge)
(2)こんなに長い箸は、今までに見たことがないよ。 (hashi=chopsticks)

As for the intonation of Kansai-ben. Yeah, their intonation differs from the standard Japanese. I still remember when we heard a guy from Osaka saying 先生 (sensei) for the first time, well, it was really weird. He started real high and then dropped, I mean the accent fall was so big! though in standard Japanese, the word doesn't start from that high point, and with only a little bit of dropping.

Originally Posted by Kyoko_desu
What about "kame" （亀、かめ）, "kami" （神、紙、髪）, or "ame" （飴、雨）?

I have no problem with distinguishing 亀(turtle) and かめ(jar), 飴(candy) and 雨(rain), nor 柿 (persimmon)and 牡蠣(oyster).
However, I don't know how to distinguish 紙 and 髪. They have different intonation from 神, but since I pronounce 紙 and 髪 with the same intonation, I have to say like 髪の毛 instead of just saying 髪, when I really need to make what I'm talking about clear.

 

[Kyoko_desu]

Ahhh! I listened to it 10 times, I can't see the difference! =o I don't know, but did you pronounced "hashi" differently? Hmmm, I'm confused, but I love listening to you speak Japanese Kyoko ^^

-Tommy

That's alright, Tomii-kun. Next time, listen very carefully to the intonation of the word "hashi".

(1) bridge __/-- (starts low then rises)

(2) chopsticks --\__ (starts high then falls)

 

[Karamuucho]

ちなみに「エディー」も、 --\__ こんな感じですｗ
（え？どうでもいいって？ｗ）

 

[Cue]

I still remember when we heard a guy from Osaka saying 先生 (sensei) for the first time, well, it was really weird. He started real high and then dropped, I mean the accent fall was so big! though in standard Japanese, the word doesn't start from that high point, and with only a little bit of dropping .

Aaaahhh! xD
Yes, that's how I pronounce that word, too~~~ xD
So, in Nagoya, the intonation or the accents are very similar to standard Japanese, I suppose?
I never notice any intonation/accents differences when I speak to my sister-in-law who's from Nagoya.

@Eddie,
How about Karamuucho? xD
----ﾂ￣ﾂ￣\
karamu-cho? Is that about right? (At least that's how I'd say)

 

[Tomii515]

Lol, I knew it XD I knew it was hashi =)

 

[Nicky]

I can hear the difference in the intonation of the two versions of "hashi", but when I try to say them they come out sounding exactly the same.

 

[MrWabu]

I still remember when we heard a guy from Osaka saying 先生 (sensei) for the first time, well, it was really weird. He started real high and then dropped, I mean the accent fall was so big! though in standard Japanese, the word doesn't start from that high point, and with only a little bit of dropping.

I found the standard Japanese pronunciation of 先生 to be quite tricky. We had a pronunciation election class and I spent a whole lesson trying to nail it. I think it is like this:
せんせい
＿ / \ ＿
It's the rise ending on the ん that was the most tricky part, very unnatural to English speakers.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

That's alright, Tomii-kun. Next time, listen very carefully to the intonation of the word "hashi".

(1) bridge __/-- (starts low then rises)

(2) chopsticks --\__ (starts high then falls)

After exploring Japan outside of Osaka for the first time, I was corrected a lot on my intonation. Apparently I only used Osaka intonation. After a while I stopped caring about intonation. When someone corrects me, I appreciate the effort, but after getting conflicting information several times, let's just say I take it with a grain of salt nowadays.

 

[leonmarino]

I was quite unaware of the whole intonation thing until a year ago when my brother was talking about the difference between 雨 and 飴.

There is also a difference between the two のみ's right?
日本人のみ - Only Japanese
のみ退治 - Fighting fleas
Accent on the colored letter.. Am I right?

 

[Glenn]

If you want to know the Standard Japanese accent patterns you can always check in the 大辞林.

日本のみ
のみ退治

Explanation of the accent marking.

Also, none of the particles is marked because their pronunciation depends on what comes before them.

 

[Kyoko_desu]

So, in Nagoya, the intonation or the accents are very similar to standard Japanese, I suppose? I never notice any intonation/accents differences when I speak to my sister-in-law who's from Nagoya.

No way~~~ My friend from Tokyo I met on internet always corrected my intonation. She said my intonation and accent was really babakusai..... but I didn't even have a clue why I sounded so.....

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

No way~~~ My friend from Tokyo I met on internet always corrected my intonation. She said my intonation and accent was really babakusai..... but I didn't even have a clue why I sounded so.....

See? This is why I don't care about intonation too much! If I use the patterns in Glenn's book, everyone here will say I sound strange and cold. If I speak like the people here, people in Tokyo will say I sound wrong.And then there's Osaka, and Hiroshima, and Fukuoka, and etc etc etc etc

 

[Karamuucho]

As long as you speak the same way as where you're from (or learnt Japanese) you can pretty much put anyone straight by saying I learnt Japanese ---here---. The problem is when you're mixing them all up, lol.

 

[undrentide]

No way~~~ My friend from Tokyo I met on internet always corrected my intonation. She said my intonation and accent was really babakusai..... but I didn't even have a clue why I sounded so.....

Really? Correcting other's intonation sounds rude...
Everytime I meet someone who speak with different intonation/accent, I feel envious because it is something I can never have... Different intonation and dialect is "a nice flavour" for me that I really enjoy.

 

[J44xm]

See? This is why I don't care about intonation too much! If I use the patterns in Glenn's book, everyone here will say I sound strange and cold. If I speak like the people here, people in Tokyo will say I sound wrong.And then there's Osaka, and Hiroshima, and Fukuoka, and etc etc etc etc

I've learned something from this. I'm glad to hear that intonation isn't as vital as it's sometimes been made out to be. I should stop worrying about it so much, since it'll pretty much come naturally anyway.

 

[Glenn]

Well, it depends on what you want to sound like. If you're shooting for NHK announcer, then you'd better learn the standard accent patterns. If you'd rather sound like you came from somewhere other than Tokyo/Kanto, then you should learn the local accent pattern. I think mixing them would sound very strange (even stranger than a foreigner speaking Akita-ben).

 

[J44xm]

Hmmm. I guess learning the local accent pattern is the way to go for me. I might as well make use of what I have available to me!

 

[Karamuucho]

I think mixing them would sound very strange (even stranger than a foreigner speaking Akita-ben).

Since the increase in kansai comedians (way back when) I've seen an increase (atleast in the people around me/I talk Japanese to) in mixing of the common kansai-ben intonations (as well as the dialect itself). BUT! You are right, haha, it just sounds wrong when people who aren't used to different dialects mix them up.