One possible reason why japanese is hard to learn?

After I gave up on going to chat rooms, since I Could not translate it for the life of me (I could translate some of it however). And the translator program gave such poor results, (How can Hyroyuki nagashima be so good at english with a translator program??), like "hill" which was oka which meant "okaa" or "ok" apparently, another slang.

I also noticed non-existant kanji. Never seen these before. I looked it up and it gave an error message. Maybe it was my computer? But I can see kanji fine. They also used a ton of these stupid emotion with text, (^^), why don't americans do this ??

I began to wonder why it was so hard. Sure, kanji is hard, and kana takes memorization, (the writing system Im referring to) but I think the hardest part of all is the slang, and counter-intiuitive phrases, I saw this in english, take this for example in english, its used alot, in fact, I found this on an IGN.com game website:

"and you can't complain about the roster of weapons, either. There's even the option to fine-tune your aim by tweaking the analog stick's dead zone, not to mention voice support for online chatter."

Is there a term for odd phrases like these? I'm sure it can sound confusing to a non native speaker. Does japanese have these kind of phrases? Is there a name for them?

The last one, "not to mention' seems more different tha 'you can't complain'. "Not to mention" sounds just weird. I can't figure out why it does. Why would you say not to mention and then mention something? It just seems opposite of what you would say. I guess it is kind of like sarcasm..

Here's an example of a translator not translating correctly:
それをイントロクイズみたいに当てる人がい・ 驍ｩらすごい。= There is person who applies it like introduction quiz and U.

'and U'? What does that mean?

The other translator says this:
# イントロ (abbr) introduction; (P); EP
# クイズ quiz; (P); EP
# 当てる 【あてる】 (v1) (1) to hit; (2) to expose; (3) to apply (e.g., patch); (4) to allot; to call on someone (e.g., in class); (5) to guess (an answer); (6) to make a hit (e.g., in a lottery); (P); EP
# 人 【じん; と; にん; ひと】 (じん) man; person; people; (と) (suf) person; (にん) ; man; person; human being; mankind; people; character; personality; true man; man of talent; adult; other people; messenger; visitor; (ひと) ; man; person; human being; mankind; people; character; personality; true man; man of talent; adult; other people; messenger; visitor; SP
# 驍 【たけし】 Takeshi (g) 【きょう】 Kyou (g) 【ぎょう】 Gyou (g) 【つよし】 Tsuyoshi (m) NA

Still doesn't make much sense..

GoldCoinLover said:

They also used a ton of these stupid emotion with text, (^^), why don't americans do this ??

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Americans (and Brits!) do. I chat with a ton of people on msn who use these. Hell, I use 'em myself! ^^ I pepper my damn emails with the things! ><

"and you can't complain about the roster of weapons, either. There's even the option to fine-tune your aim by tweaking the analog stick's dead zone, not to mention voice support for online chatter."

Is there a term for odd phrases like these? I'm sure it can sound confusing to a non native speaker. Does japanese have these kind of phrases? Is there a name for them?

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I think they are called just "slang", yes? I'm not sure what the Japanese term is for such phrases, though...
Or maybe not slang, but a "saying" or "way of speech"?

The last one, "not to mention' seems more different tha 'you can't complain'. "Not to mention" sounds just weird. I can't figure out why it does. Why would you say not to mention and then mention something? It just seems opposite of what you would say

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Was your quote taken from Japanese and then translated into English? Or was it directly from an English-language gaming chat?
Anyway, "not to mention" is a phrase I hear used quite a lot. Maybe it's more Brit English than American English? It kind of means... that there's something "extra", over and above what the person already stated (in this case voice support in addition to the fine-tuning option). Where the phrase originates from I've no idea! It's almost like a kind of "downplaying" of the additional thing, like, "oh, not to mention [x]", like taking it for granted... if that makes any sense (maybe someone else can explain better than me).

The phrase "you can't complain" (in this case about the roster of weapons) is also a phrase I hear quite a lot. This I think probably IS more British! lol. Really, what is meant is that the roster of weapons is good. But to say "you can't complain" about it, is once again downplaying it - making it out to be "not bad" rather than actually saying "the roster of weapons is good". Or sometimes this phrase is used to mean "adequate" - for example, "the roster of weapons isn't brilliant, but you can't complain" (meaning it's about average).

I'm rambling, but I hope this helps to clear the things up. I'm not good at Japanese, but I know English!

Kinsao said:

Americans (and Brits!) do. I chat with a ton of people on msn who use these. Hell, I use 'em myself! ^^ I pepper my damn emails with the things! ><



I think they are called just "slang", yes? I'm not sure what the Japanese term is for such phrases, though...
Or maybe not slang, but a "saying" or "way of speech"?



Was your quote taken from Japanese and then translated into English? Or was it directly from an English-language gaming chat?
Anyway, "not to mention" is a phrase I hear used quite a lot. Maybe it's more Brit English than American English? It kind of means... that there's something "extra", over and above what the person already stated (in this case voice support in addition to the fine-tuning option). Where the phrase originates from I've no idea! It's almost like a kind of "downplaying" of the additional thing, like, "oh, not to mention [x]", like taking it for granted... if that makes any sense (maybe someone else can explain better than me).

The phrase "you can't complain" (in this case about the roster of weapons) is also a phrase I hear quite a lot. This I think probably IS more British! lol. Really, what is meant is that the roster of weapons is good. But to say "you can't complain" about it, is once again downplaying it - making it out to be "not bad" rather than actually saying "the roster of weapons is good". Or sometimes this phrase is used to mean "adequate" - for example, "the roster of weapons isn't brilliant, but you can't complain" (meaning it's about average).

I'm rambling, but I hope this helps to clear the things up. I'm not good at Japanese, but I know English!

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The text in japanese was taken from a gaming chatroom. I have no idea what it means.

However, the one with 'not to mention', etc is from a US gaming site IGN.com. It is for the video game of the year awards for the PSP (Playstation portable) heres a link:http://bestof.ign.com/2005/psp/13.html

It irks me very much that Grand theft auto won like 6 spots . Best graphics (It does NOT have the best graphics, look at screenshots for ridge racer or wipeout pure) best sound (Ill give it that one) and best game of the year! It's not even a japanese game. I did hear the japanese people mention GTA many times, but I didn't know if it was directed to me? What's odd is, when talking to each another they always mentioned each others names so they would know who it is directed to, however, that very rarely ever happened to me. In the process, I had to transltae every question (I admit they type out japanese very fast!) which was extremely difficult, let alone understanding it(See I did one myself, LOL).

I even asked them to please say my name when they want to ask me a question, not sure if they understand that or not. The problem was they undestood me (for the most part) but I didn't undersatnd them. It kept translating into very odd things, which make no sense. Objects, like trees, hills, samuri..etc.

Your'e right, thas whawt it is. "downplaying" it. I'm sure this can be quite frusterating in all languages.

Oh,and I'm happy to say I got lucky this time. I me ta japanese man/or women that wanted to learn english. I said i would be happy to teach them. People ther e actually told me english is useless and it sucks. Yet many words in japanese are from america or britian. Sad. orenji, for example (orange), bed (beddo), etc.

Do yourself a huge favor and stop using online/computer translation software. It doesn't work. Especially when talking to native speakers. The translations make no sense. Languages don't follow rules strictly enough for it to work.

I even asked them to please say my name when they want to ask me a question, not sure if they understand that or not. The problem was they undestood me (for the most part) but I didn't undersatnd them. It kept translating into very odd things, which make no sense. Objects, like trees, hills, samuri..etc.

Your'e right, thas whawt it is. "downplaying" it. I'm sure this can be quite frusterating in all languages.

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Now reading that part was also frusterating.

Anyway you can use online translators but, for more natural sounding sentences the translators will not work. I use excite.co.jp as it has a dictionary for kanji and it seems to work very well for the most part.

Chat rooms might not be the best place to learn Japanese. Much of the slang is shortened/mangled forms of regular words, so if you took the time to learn proper Japanese first, you'd be able to figure out what they were saying. Whereas if you just look at chatroom slang without knowing what the words are supposed to be, you can't really look them up because they're not in the form that appears in the dictionary.

Also, as far as kanji go, they sometimes use kanji with different meanings but the same reading, or substitute kanji into katakana words. So if learn enough kanji and their readings and build up a large enough vocabulary you should be able to figure these out as well, but again, that sort of knowledge is more likely to come from a textbook than a chatroom.

Online translators are crap! Honestly they are! I read something translated to English from French through one and it messes up the simplest things.... (I assume we're talking automated software here and not an actual person online... )

m477 said:

Chat rooms might not be the best place to learn Japanese.

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This is one of the biggest understatements I have seen in a while!

GCL, you don't learn to scuba dive by learning what some of the equipment is called and then gearing up and diving in, submersing yourself to the ocean bottom, exploring underseas caves. You would be in over your head (literally!), and you would most likely run into trouble and end up drowning.

you are doing the same to yourself by diving into such high-level Japanese situations. For example, on those chats, did you notice that many people would write こん? Do you know what that means? It is not in ANY dictionary or translation software, I'm sure. It's something you will never come across in real conversation; you will see it only on the internet.

In other words, it's a special case. Delving into places like chat will bring myriads of special case usage of Japanese. Starting from that is a very poor way to learn the language, trust me.

I know you have said that you have given up on chat, but please understand that the experience you have and what I'm saying have global applications as well. If you dive out too far, you will drown.

GCL I know many people have said this already, but please listen. You need to join a beginners class. Maybe take a level one and follow it with a level two class...then you will have the basics. Of course during this time you can study on your own as well (that will only make you stronger). From what I have seen of your posts, you are not the type to teach yourself Japanese. You are only going to confuse yourself and frustrate everyone you come into contact with.

A few comments (to GoldCoinLover)

1. Listen to the people who are telling you to stop using online automated translators. Whether you're going from English to Japanese or vice-versa, 95% of the time the results are going to be meaningless garbage. Some are particularly bad (I love Google, but their beta E-J translation engine translates "Thank you" as 「あなたに感謝しなさい」)
Anyway, there is a reason that people actually STUDY languages instead of just using automated translation software for everything.

2.

Mikawa Ossan said:

I know you have said that you have given up on chat, but please understand that the experience you have and what I'm saying have global applications as well. If you dive out too far, you will drown.

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This is very important advice, GCL. Read it two or three times and think about what it means. There is a proper order for everything. You need to study Japanese in a way that is appropriate for your level. I would suggest getting a college-level Japanese textbook and starting from page 1.

GoldCoinLover said:

I began to wonder why it was so hard. Sure, kanji is hard, and kana takes memorization, (the writing system I'm referring to) but I think the hardest part of all is the slang, and counter-intuitive phrases, I saw this in english, take this for example in english, its used alot, in fact, I found this on an IGN.com game website:

"and you can't complain about the roster of weapons, either. There's even the option to fine-tune your aim by tweaking the analog stick's dead zone, not to mention voice support for online chatter."

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This is actually rather insightful of you, GCL. Yes, I would agree that this is one of the most difficult things about learning Japanese (or any language). You need to do more than learn "kanji" and learn words, you need to learn how people say things, and the idioms and turns of phrase used will often be very different from the way one would say the same thing in English. If you can understand this at this point in the game, then you may be in good shape.

One final comment:
My personal opinion is that the number one reason that Japanese is hard to learn for most people is because they spend so much time trying to convince themselves that it is. Don't worry about how "difficult" the language is (the truth is that it's just very different from your native language) and just keep studying it. I promise you that you'll get somewhere.

Mikawa Ossan said:

This is one of the biggest understatements I have seen in a while!

GCL, you don't learn to scuba dive by learning what some of the equipment is called and then gearing up and diving in, submersing yourself to the ocean bottom, exploring underseas caves. You would be in over your head (literally!), and you would most likely run into trouble and end up drowning.

you are doing the same to yourself by diving into such high-level Japanese situations. For example, on those chats, did you notice that many people would write 窶堋ｱ窶堙ｱ? Do you know what that means? It is not in ANY dictionary or translation software, I'm sure. It's something you will never come across in real conversation; you will see it only on the internet.

In other words, it's a special case. Delving into places like chat will bring myriads of special case usage of Japanese. Starting from that is a very poor way to learn the language, trust me.

I know you have said that you have given up on chat, but please understand that the experience you have and what I'm saying have global applications as well. If you dive out too far, you will drown.

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I'm pretty sure kon means, 'konbanwa', or 'good evening'. Right? Just guessing.

konnnitiha also?

"Arin" is another one I see meaning arigatou

おめめ～ for おめでとう

OMedeto means happy new year or does it mean congrats?

GoldCoinLover said:

I'm pretty sure kon means, 'konbanwa', or 'good evening'. Right? Just guessing.

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Did you actually read my post in its entirety? I sure get the impression that you missed the point entirely.

Mikawa Ossan said:

This is one of the biggest understatements I have seen in a while!

GCL, you don't learn to scuba dive by learning what some of the equipment is called and then gearing up and diving in, submersing yourself to the ocean bottom, exploring underseas caves. You would be in over your head (literally!), and you would most likely run into trouble and end up drowning.

you are doing the same to yourself by diving into such high-level Japanese situations. For example, on those chats, did you notice that many people would write 窶堋ｱ窶堙ｱ? Do you know what that means? It is not in ANY dictionary or translation software, I'm sure. It's something you will never come across in real conversation; you will see it only on the internet.

In other words, it's a special case. Delving into places like chat will bring myriads of special case usage of Japanese. Starting from that is a very poor way to learn the language, trust me.

I know you have said that you have given up on chat, but please understand that the experience you have and what I'm saying have global applications as well. If you dive out too far, you will drown.

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I understand what you are saying, and I Understood your point. "Don't get in over your head." However, you also asked me if I knew what it was. I do, konbanwa. There you go

I think you people when you say I know no japanese this is simply not true. I do know some.

Does the term "rhetorical question" mean anything to you?

You seem to be under the impression that kanji and kana equal the Japanese language. They do not. They are modes for putting the Japanese language into written form. Learning a few kanji and remembering some kana are not the same as learning/studying the Japanese language.

You've still got the grammar and vocabulary to deal with. And even though you don't know yet what it is called, you have also stumbled onto the question of idiomatic expressions.

i like take this froma dif site


Please me ！ Delete/Quote
No.1897-1 - 2005/12/24 (SA) 17:10:55 - sea
I'm a twenty-year-old girl. I'm married. He of a foreigner wants. I'm not being capricious and am looking for the person who looks like a best friend. A person in Europe, United States and Australia likes very much. Doesn't my thing give a mail to a worrisome person even a little? I'm waiting pleasantly.


this what hapend swhen japnese use tranlater this can lead to truble good reson not to use tranlater

my japnese is not good but im trying i finly rember how to say cute in japnese and speel it its kawii right