You are right. When you don't agree with the conduct by the cop, just go to court.
I just asked Kirin about his friend hoping I can see as many Japanese posters as possible here.
And don't worry no dropping our pants clause in the Art of War.
One of my friends told me about this...
- Thread starter Kyle
- Start date
You are right. When you don't agree with the conduct by the cop, just go to court.
I just asked Kirin about his friend hoping I can see as many Japanese posters as possible here.
And don't worry no dropping our pants clause in the Art of War.
Otenba
後輩
- 1 Apr 2007
- 113
- 2
I don't see how a cop requesting an ID is worth a trial in court. He did that believing he'd prevent crime, maybe with a slight bias, and asking for an ID is no big deal IMO. Why make a big deal out of it when you have nothing to worry about..? It'd been different if the cop had dragged him off and strip-searched him. He'd have had my full support then. But taking an ID request to court? Flash the ID card and get it over with. A matter of 20 seconds.
orochi
便利屋
- 1 May 2004
- 692
- 25
Even if it's illegal?
And there has been no talk of bringing this issue to trial. Why are you mentioning it?
Based on what? There's no evidence of this in the audio tape.
There's a lot to worry about.
Yet you seem to think a strip search is unreasonable. Why not just take your clothes off? 200 seconds and it is over. Deal with it.
It was you who kindly brought the law here. It IS legal for cops in Japan to stop & question somebody.
orochi
便利屋
- 1 May 2004
- 692
- 25
Otenba
後輩
- 1 Apr 2007
- 113
- 2
A strip search is one of the most humiliating "200 seconds" one can give you, I'm speaking from experience. I flash my ID card everywhere I go - to pick up a parcel, at the airport, at age checks,... so? Big deal. So they get to know my name. OMG! The horror!
Illegal? Because that cop picked a foreigner? Maybe that isn't quite right, but also not dramatic enough to take to court if you ask me. Like, elsewhere a person gets stabbed and court is occupied dealing with someone complaining about having to reveal their name during a period of tightened security in a country he knew was a teensy bit racist.
Based on what? Are you suggesting the cop was just bored? He was cooperative enough to sound rather sincere to me. I despise cops and the system for the most part, so you won't see me defending them if I don't think they really might not be so evil in this case. I also had my luggage searched for drugs because I had a tattoo. Annoying, but so? They were very nice and apologized in the end, guess the tattoo made them suspicious. 've learnt my lesson and put a bandage on it once I enter the airport. Not behaving suspiciously will save your *** in most cases. Debito with his observation thing wasn't doing himself a favor.
Let's not lump injustified ID checks together with rape and murder. Not everything illegal (I bet everyone here owns at least one illegal download) is worth a trial. Well, you can always try for the money you may get out of it.. if you win
Illegal? Because that cop picked a foreigner? Maybe that isn't quite right, but also not dramatic enough to take to court if you ask me. Like, elsewhere a person gets stabbed and court is occupied dealing with someone complaining about having to reveal their name during a period of tightened security in a country he knew was a teensy bit racist.
Based on what? Are you suggesting the cop was just bored? He was cooperative enough to sound rather sincere to me. I despise cops and the system for the most part, so you won't see me defending them if I don't think they really might not be so evil in this case. I also had my luggage searched for drugs because I had a tattoo. Annoying, but so? They were very nice and apologized in the end, guess the tattoo made them suspicious. 've learnt my lesson and put a bandage on it once I enter the airport. Not behaving suspiciously will save your *** in most cases. Debito with his observation thing wasn't doing himself a favor.
Let's not lump injustified ID checks together with rape and murder. Not everything illegal (I bet everyone here owns at least one illegal download) is worth a trial. Well, you can always try for the money you may get out of it.. if you win
Simple. I know it was a disgusting time for Debito, but it was unusual situation as the cop told so, the G8 summit.
And we don't know how long Debito was standing and taking photos at the airport or we don't know how many cop-loving photographers were there then, isn't it a bit rational for cops to ask somebody to stop and question him?
And if he really felt offended even after the kind apology by the cop, just go to court. Fortunately he has a lot of evidences as he claims. The rationality is not something we can conclude here.
KirinMan
後輩
- 23 Jan 2007
- 2,173
- 68
Next time I see him I will.
For someone who has been living here as long as he has Debito should know better. He was looking for trouble in my opinion, but hell he has to make a living somehow right?
Unless of course the police were fully aware of who he was and were just harrassing him. You know this is a closed knot society, information gets passed along through the network of the police department.
It's a conspiracy to give Dave more headaches.
Or they are all working together and Dave is paying the cops under the table bribes to help assist him in making them look like Nazi's.
Dont know which, but this episode of him with the police here sounds like poorly written material for a daytime soap opera.
Taiko666
先輩
- 8 May 2006
- 334
- 10
Good to see some passion back on JREF!
Hats off to Orochi for persisting where many (including myself) would've given up long ago. (Actually, when I first came to Japan I would've persisted too... but argueing with fellow NJ whose attitude seems to be 'this is Japanese way, and it won't change so deal with it' too demoralizing.)
This thread seems to have several sub-threads intertwined, so I'll rattle off some my thoughts quickly before the boss gets back...
1) Debito in the airport
Debito walks through the airport and gets asked for his id (he wasn't 'hanging around' at that point.) Japanese laws state that the police must suspect you of a crime (or potential crime) before they can ask for id.
So either
a) The police officer didn't suspect him of a (potential) crime, and was thus acting illegally
b) He did suspect Debito of a (potential) crime based on his looks, which is legal (in Japan) but immoral (in most places except Japan)
How you reacts to this is determined by whether you-
a) are Japanese Joe Public wanting to see the police 'doing things' to 'combat terrorism', and the legality/morality of their actions is irrelevant to you.
b) are someone whose disdain for Debito is more important than challenging illegal/immoral police actions
c) really couldn't care less
2) The OP's question.
Seemed like a valid question to me. I asked a similar question a while back and was similarly berated. Basically I think that Japanese law makes it very easy for abuses to take place (I would regard Pachipro's 3 days of questioning for forgetting to carry his id an abuse), but, as an American friend in Nishi-ogi once remarked, your attitude (and the attitude of the person in authority) is a huge factor in how things turn out.
I also think this is unsatisfactory, and should change if Japan continues to become more ethnically diverse.
I've said before that I think Japan has 3 choices:
- roll back / halt the onset of ethnic diveristy in Japan (impossible)
- continue as present but make some simple changes to the law that would make things much less painful for all involved (seems a no-brainer)
- continue as present without changing the laws and deal with the ensuing chaos (seems the most likely outcome)
Hats off to Orochi for persisting where many (including myself) would've given up long ago. (Actually, when I first came to Japan I would've persisted too... but argueing with fellow NJ whose attitude seems to be 'this is Japanese way, and it won't change so deal with it' too demoralizing.)
This thread seems to have several sub-threads intertwined, so I'll rattle off some my thoughts quickly before the boss gets back...
1) Debito in the airport
Debito walks through the airport and gets asked for his id (he wasn't 'hanging around' at that point.) Japanese laws state that the police must suspect you of a crime (or potential crime) before they can ask for id.
So either
a) The police officer didn't suspect him of a (potential) crime, and was thus acting illegally
b) He did suspect Debito of a (potential) crime based on his looks, which is legal (in Japan) but immoral (in most places except Japan)
How you reacts to this is determined by whether you-
a) are Japanese Joe Public wanting to see the police 'doing things' to 'combat terrorism', and the legality/morality of their actions is irrelevant to you.
b) are someone whose disdain for Debito is more important than challenging illegal/immoral police actions
c) really couldn't care less
2) The OP's question.
Seemed like a valid question to me. I asked a similar question a while back and was similarly berated. Basically I think that Japanese law makes it very easy for abuses to take place (I would regard Pachipro's 3 days of questioning for forgetting to carry his id an abuse), but, as an American friend in Nishi-ogi once remarked, your attitude (and the attitude of the person in authority) is a huge factor in how things turn out.
I also think this is unsatisfactory, and should change if Japan continues to become more ethnically diverse.
I've said before that I think Japan has 3 choices:
- roll back / halt the onset of ethnic diveristy in Japan (impossible)
- continue as present but make some simple changes to the law that would make things much less painful for all involved (seems a no-brainer)
- continue as present without changing the laws and deal with the ensuing chaos (seems the most likely outcome)
Emoni
先輩
- 20 Sep 2003
- 1,779
- 67
Japanese nationality really has nothing to do with practices such as this. There is a lot to be said for how a nation treats its visitors. (This applying just as much to the US.)
Becoming a Japanese national is another issue in and of itself. To mix them both, and to somehow claim that you MUST be a Japanese national to even consider these issues or want to work towards their change is short sighted and is a relatively baseless argument.
I'd say it along the lines of the logic (or lack of to be more exact) "America love it or leave it." This sense of nationalist separatism is not only internally harmful, but leaves a great deal to be desired in regards to international behavior.
It has already been shown through numerous studies (check NHK, and I believe another posted already showed this as well in here) that foreigners are not a real problem when it comes to crime. Treating people as criminals, over reacting, and having an arguably broken legal system (yes, there are MAJOR flaws) isn't in anyone's benefit. "Foreigners" standing up and fighting against it is actually in Japan's long term benefit and those who are doing so DO care about the country and the people, that is why they make such an effort. Instances, even if baited, like Debito's do need to be brought to the forefront, as racism and behavior that is far worse does exist in Japan. There were numerous stories I read concerning concerning Korean or Chinese immigrants to Japan in legal classes at Waseda. It was quite discouraging.
Before discounting those who stand up or speak out against situations like this, listen to them because there is often going to be a sincere effort and reason behind the effort. As annoying as some may be, and problematic as they seem, even people like Debito are trying to bring good from their work. They aren't just running to the airport waiting around to feed their fetish of being stopped by cops so they can run in and fap in the nearest restroom. Don't over simplify too much...
Fearing getting arrested just for not carrying a card, being finger printed now at airports and a picture taken, being stopped by the police for registration... I'm not a criminal, a majority of the criminals are JAPANESE... Stop treating us like criminals. Human rights and legal arguments aside, stop doing it for the most basic reason that, "it's very rude."
Becoming a Japanese national is another issue in and of itself. To mix them both, and to somehow claim that you MUST be a Japanese national to even consider these issues or want to work towards their change is short sighted and is a relatively baseless argument.
I'd say it along the lines of the logic (or lack of to be more exact) "America love it or leave it." This sense of nationalist separatism is not only internally harmful, but leaves a great deal to be desired in regards to international behavior.
It has already been shown through numerous studies (check NHK, and I believe another posted already showed this as well in here) that foreigners are not a real problem when it comes to crime. Treating people as criminals, over reacting, and having an arguably broken legal system (yes, there are MAJOR flaws) isn't in anyone's benefit. "Foreigners" standing up and fighting against it is actually in Japan's long term benefit and those who are doing so DO care about the country and the people, that is why they make such an effort. Instances, even if baited, like Debito's do need to be brought to the forefront, as racism and behavior that is far worse does exist in Japan. There were numerous stories I read concerning concerning Korean or Chinese immigrants to Japan in legal classes at Waseda. It was quite discouraging.
Before discounting those who stand up or speak out against situations like this, listen to them because there is often going to be a sincere effort and reason behind the effort. As annoying as some may be, and problematic as they seem, even people like Debito are trying to bring good from their work. They aren't just running to the airport waiting around to feed their fetish of being stopped by cops so they can run in and fap in the nearest restroom. Don't over simplify too much...
Fearing getting arrested just for not carrying a card, being finger printed now at airports and a picture taken, being stopped by the police for registration... I'm not a criminal, a majority of the criminals are JAPANESE... Stop treating us like criminals. Human rights and legal arguments aside, stop doing it for the most basic reason that, "it's very rude."
orochi
便利屋
- 1 May 2004
- 692
- 25
What does that comment add to this conversation? I'd like to hear an honest answer.
Otenba
後輩
- 1 Apr 2007
- 113
- 2
The way Emoni puts it, I have to admit I must agree for a large part. On the other hand, I also agreee on "love it or leave it" as nobody is forced to live in a place they keep complaining about. Save up some money and GTFO. Sometimes I see foreigners in Belgium behave (or clearly state) as if they hate Belgium, they live by laws and "manners" they're used to from their homeland, which are often crimes in Belgium, and then complain about intolerance. Well... airport's just one train ride away! If you wanna live in another country, speak its language and abide by its rules. Or else, what point is there in living abroad when you're going to act the same everywhere?
I think what caster51 meant, please do correct me if I'm wrong, is: if you want to be accepted by a country, then start by adapting to and embracing it, which includes but is not limited to: don't go around asking "Do you speak English" in a non-English country and expect to be welcomed with open arms and people listening to your complaints when you're not even willing to adapt to the most basic thing of any country: communicating in its language. Communication is the base of all, and Japan communicates in Japanese most of the time, so if you're wanna complain in and about Japan, do it in Japanese if you wanna be taken seriously. D'uh.
If that's what he meant, I agree 100%.
I think what caster51 meant, please do correct me if I'm wrong, is: if you want to be accepted by a country, then start by adapting to and embracing it, which includes but is not limited to: don't go around asking "Do you speak English" in a non-English country and expect to be welcomed with open arms and people listening to your complaints when you're not even willing to adapt to the most basic thing of any country: communicating in its language. Communication is the base of all, and Japan communicates in Japanese most of the time, so if you're wanna complain in and about Japan, do it in Japanese if you wanna be taken seriously. D'uh.
If that's what he meant, I agree 100%.
orochi
便利屋
- 1 May 2004
- 692
- 25
Otenba said:
Just getting up and leaving someplace and abandoning it would be a sign you didn't care very much. On the other hand, if you stayed and tried to help things change for the better it would show you truly cared.
Don't confuse the guy who is at the bar every night complaining about how bad his life is to somebody who cares about his home and wants to see things changed for the better.
Also keep in mind that the guy who complains all the time might not be any happier anywhere. His environment might not matter at all.
And we've been over this before, but there are also people who cannot get up and leave so easily as you say because of a job, family, mortgage, or other reasons.
So you might want to work on your policy a bit more factoring in real world factors as well.
I don't know what he actually did, but he clearly said he did watch the cop for quite some time. And when we believe what he said that he went to the station after the conversation, he took the action to take photos or else. I don't know how moral his actions are, though.
Illegality of the police action, in this case "stop and question", is judged by the balance depending upon circumstances. Of course, I don't mean that the police has an almighty card which give them win all card games.
This is a case law not about the stop and question, but more about involuntary search.
And the gist goes that there are some cases under certain situations where the police action might use their power.
It is great of the British long tradition for their unarmed police, but even for them they use guns in a certain situation and killed an innocent person.
If their conduct is wrong, people have a right to access to court, right? It is the same here as the criminal's appeal above was unfortunately rejected whose claim that the search by the police was intolerable human right abuse.
When you are in the similar situation like Debito, please go to court.
hello guys..m a new member here..nd m welcoming myself..urgh..nway, i join u since i hv a sis workin n jpan nd hv some query 4 u guys..she's planning 2 go home dis cming dec nd s planning to only get 1 way tiket (Japan-Phil)no return tiket.is this possible?is she allwoed to exit japan w/o a return tiket?she holds a 3yr visa married to a japanese..no credit card of her own..hw or where she could buy or reserve a ticket? husband is not helpful at all...appreciate f u cud give me some insights...thx guys..
Taiko666
先輩
- 8 May 2006
- 334
- 10
Well, I think the whole Debito is bad/good thing is somewhat of a diversion, but he quite clearly states he was going about his business normally, was stopped, and *afterwards* stood observing the policemen's actions in order to ascertain if Japanese-looking people were also being stopped.
Thanks for your appreciation of British police being unarmed! (usually...) I think the day all British police start carrying guns will be a very sad one.
Indeed, British police have killed innocent people. However, the instance of this is much less than once a year. And of couse, it makes front page news, and court actions / judicial inquires and sometimes even international diplomatic crises ensue (I'm sure you had the unfortunate Brazilian in mind.)
The differences is there is a law against shooting innocent people. Therefore the law kicks in automatically.
In Japanese law, stopping a foreigner is legal bacause *being* a foreigner is enough to cause the necessary suspicion. Therefore the law doesn't kick in. And for a foreigner, there is not even the option to sue... because although discrimination is unconstitional, the Constitution only pertains to citizens. Debito could sue if he wanted, but I wouldn't be able to.
In short, there's is no legal recourse for a foreigner who is stopped just for being a foreigner.
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KirinMan
後輩
- 23 Jan 2007
- 2,173
- 68
Here is a reminder to Otenba on this thread.....I would really love to hear her reply on this one.
I think it's time to start taking the air out of the balloon full of misconceptions, and lack of understanding that you are carrying around!
I think it's time to start taking the air out of the balloon full of misconceptions, and lack of understanding that you are carrying around!
I have found Japanese policemen to usually be very nice and helpful.
Times when Japanese policemen have helped me:
When I am hopelessly lost
When I got hit by a car
When I had my identy stolen
When my bike broke
And when you bow they bow back.
Plus one lent me his umbrealla when I got stuck in the rain
I am white, female and only slightly bigger than a large colonial doll so I am hardly threatening
Maybe if they see you as 'threatening' they give you more grief.
Because even though I had no trouble I can imagine that other people have
Times when Japanese policemen have helped me:
When I am hopelessly lost
When I got hit by a car
When I had my identy stolen
When my bike broke
And when you bow they bow back.
Plus one lent me his umbrealla when I got stuck in the rain
I am white, female and only slightly bigger than a large colonial doll so I am hardly threatening
Maybe if they see you as 'threatening' they give you more grief.
Because even though I had no trouble I can imagine that other people have
