One of my friends told me about this...

[Ashikaga]

We all have to understand this particular episode between debito and the police at the airport is different from a foreigner/someone who look foreign getting stopped and questioned while riding her/his bike. We should not confuse the two.

If any of you believe racial profiling should not be tolerated no matter what the circumstance may be, you will encounter the same problem everywhere you go. Therefore, while we are specifically talking about this particular case, comparing with the situations in other countries is relevant.

When this encounter took place, an important event with some of the world leaders was taking place in Hokkaido . The police was expecting many foreigners traveling to Hokkaido just to participate in demonstrations against globalization, etc. In previous Summits, there had been people utilizing a tactic, so called Black Blocing, which tend to be violent and dangerous. Since they, the police, would not possibly be able to screen every single person who would come through the airport, they concentrated on the foreigners.

There is no question as to if this was racial profiling. The police officer himself says on the tape that it was.

If we keep bringing up this particular incident with debito and the police, it will make it hard to keep the focus of this thread. Here we are arguing what debito's motives would have been. That doesn't really matter. Not to the discussion we are trying to have here anyway.

The OP states that he had heard about some disturbing facts about Japanese police and wanted to know if they were true. Some members have written that they did not believe the "facts" listed in the OP was all accurate while others said they were.

Someone said that people's personal anecdotes don't relate to the discussion. Isn't that what OP was asking for? The OP itself is something he had heard from one of his friends. I thought he was basically asking other members "What are your experiences/opinions?". I'd much prefer reading about members' personal experiences than the one by someone who is not participating here. Why is debito's personal anecdote, which, again, happened under a special circumstance, more important/relevent than those of Kirin Man or Otenba?

 

[orochi]

Why is debito's personal anecdote, which, again, happened under a special circumstance, more important/relevent than those of Kirin Man or Otenba?

I didn't read Otenba's comment, so I can't comment on it.
But Debito's incident is recorded on tape and in print.
KirinMan says he has some relatives.
There's a huge difference.

Thanks for summing things up though. This thread has gone all over the place. A lot of it is probably my fault.

 

[Pachipro]

The point of the OP was to ask if what he printed was propaganda and BS or fact. Unfortunately, most of it is overblown BS with maybe a hint of minor truth to one or two points.

As far as Debito is concerned, I respected him at the outset and thought he was a crusader and a voice for foreigners in Japan, but over the years I have come to regard him as nothing more than a race-baiting foreigner turned Japanese citizen looking to push his agenda in any way he can in order to keep his name in the newspapers and to keep his ego alive.

I regard him today as nothing more than a white version-in Japan of an Al Sharpton or a Jessee Jackson who look for racism under any circumstance and even provoke it at times as has been proved more than once, and then look for the cameras or news media for support. Hopefully, more Japanese will see him for what he really is.

If Debito just walked through the airport once, took a picture or two and went on his way, I doubt he would've been stopped. The fact that he hung around "baiting" and "non-verbally begging" the police to stop him is what I disrespect. He got just what he asked for and then complains about it and screams racism. My respect for that kind of action and him diminishes daily. Heck, I'll bet a million yen that I could also provoke that kind of action by the police with suspicious behavior and my camera near the Imperial Palace or the Diet building, record the whole thing and then scream racism. Way too easy.

I'm waiting for the lawsuit to be filed and will be looking for it and the outcome.

 

[Emoni]

One thing I do want to point out. While I don't know much about Debito, and how much he "baited" the situation is unknown, Police and law enforcement will do the same sorts of behavior. Sure there is something to be said for baiting, but there wasn't much going on really from the looks of it. Especially with keeping in mind that the police will set traps as well from time to time in countries to catch others.

Claiming that they were just baiting you to commit the crime doesn't work for you against the police, and it shouldn't work for the police against you either.

 

[Otenba]

Pachipro just said something I felt growing in my own mind, too. Debito WANTS racism so he can make a big deal out of it and himself.
We must keep in mind that Japanese manners are way different from many other counties' and so sometimes I find it understandable that Japanese will try to keep foreigners at a distance. Often when I'm in Japan, I watch foreigners behave as if they're at home, or worse, home alone.

What I personally find hilarious is how Debito keeps repeating "Nihonjin desu" with one hell of an accent that has you wonder whether he's freakin serious or took the Japanese nationality just for the fun of it. Usually, when people who don't look or act their nationality walk up to me and repeat that they so are the nationality they claim to be, I just point and laugh... If they're not at the very least 100% adapted to their country (perfect language skills, perfect adaption to local law and manners,...), I don't accept them screaming "I'm (insert country here)!" unless their pure-blooded (insert country).

 

[Kirakira1232]

I dont know if this is relevant to the conversation but here goes.

I have to say I have not lived in Japan for an extended period of time...but from reading a lot of posts, I think the whole thing with Debito may partly be due to the fact that Japan is by and large a mono-cultural country. From what I've heard from The Japan Times and from other posts around this board, the naturalisation process is notoriously difficult and most of the time is almost never guaranteed. The Police simply arent used to hearing or seeing a westerner that has been naturalised Japanese.

Was that any excuse for them to check his ID? I dont know, given that it was a high profile summit like G8 I would expect the Police to be naturally edgy. Did they use racial profiling? Maybe...even so racial profiling/stereotyping isnt anything radically new and still exists today even in multicultural societies such as Australia, America and the UK. Does it mean the Japanese police are racist? Who knows? All I can glean that it was a Policeman asking for the ID of a western looking man who kept saying he was Japanese but still not providing his ID.

I'm an Australian citizen by birth and my parents are of asian heritage and sometimes there are assumptions made about me (like on occasions i get asked if I'm an international student). I dont find it offensive I just politely say I was born in Australia and explain my parents are of Cambodian heritage. Perhaps this whole thing could have been averted if he just politely explained that he is a Japanese citizen but his parents are not of Japanese heritage and just showed his ID. If a Policeman asks me for my ID while walking around an area where 10 of the world's leaders were meeting, I'd produce it regardless of the reason.

Unfortunately I dont have enough experience in Japan to answer the OP's questions due never having had any run in with the law....so I'm sorry.

 

[orochi]

Pachipro just said something I felt growing in my own mind, too. Debito WANTS racism so he can make a big deal out of it and himself.

Do you have anything to back this up? Why are you putting words in somebody else's mouth?

We must keep in mind that Japanese manners are way different from many other counties' and so sometimes I find it understandable that Japanese will try to keep foreigners at a distance.

Has anybody brought up manners? The biggest problems we've discussed have been based on the law.

Often when I'm in Japan, I watch foreigners behave as if they're at home, or worse, home alone.

For many foreigners living here, Japan IS their home. They have careers, spouses, children, extended families, own property, etc.

What I personally find hilarious is how Debito keeps repeating "Nihonjin desu" with one hell of an accent that has you wonder whether he's freakin serious or took the Japanese nationality just for the fun of it.

His Japanese is fine. Why don't you put up a recording for us and let everybody hear your Japanese skills.
And how does your perception of his language ability have anything to do with the life choice he made to change his nationality? I don't see how these two correlate at all.

Usually, when people who don't look or act their nationality walk up to me and repeat that they so are the nationality they claim to be, I just point and laugh...

As has already been brought up a few times, the cop approached Debito. Your point here is irrelevant.

If they're not at the very least 100% adapted to their country (perfect language skills, perfect adaption to local law and manners,...), I don't accept them screaming "I'm (insert country here)!" unless their pure-blooded (insert country).

Define 100% adapted. That sounds like quite an extreme. It sounds like even people born and raised here might have trouble fitting in. Do you know anybody who is always happy with what is going on, speaks perfectly without the slightest error, knows all the laws of the land by heart, and is always perfectly polite? I didn't think so.
And you mention pure-blood. This brings up a lot of problems. What about children of Japanese and foreign parents? Should people face persecution and accusations every day of their life because because one of their parents was born outside of Japan?

 

[Otenba]

As for Debito, it's the feeling I've gotten from reading his stuff. Instead of just enjoying Japan, he's going around complaining about racism. If Japan's so racist, why won't he just leave? All those lawsuits and phone calls for "Japanese only" signs and stuff... is it such a tragedy not to be able to go and sit in a public bath or visit THAT ONE club out of a million in the vicinity?

As for manners and law: disrespecting manners is very often a first alarm signal for the next step, breaking the law. I'm not saying that an ill-mannered person is usually a criminal, but ill-mannered people are still worth keeping an eye on often times.

What I meant with behaving as if you're at home, was behaving like you're not in Japan but in a country where it's natural to pull the trigger on people for so much as trespassing. Acting in Japan like you're somewhere else where you get away with your habits the Japanese may find disturbing. Do I greet people in Japan with hugs and kisses just because we do so in Belgium? God forbid.

And yes, I have an accent and I tend to stutter, but I don't go high and mighty and get a nationality of a country which obviously, visibly and audibly is not my original country. I'm German and as a German, I'm credible. But if I were to get a Japanese nationality, people would just point and laugh. Someone who's not perfectly mastered a country's language shouldn't have the guts to claim its nationality. I was raised in Germany by a pure-blooded German mum, I don't look too foreign, and my German is accent-free which makes me sufficiently German. It's way too different in Debito's case and I don't think he should boast with Japanese nationality. To me, a Japanese person looks like a Japanese person. Like, a visible amount of Japanese blood. THEN go calling yourself Japanese again. When a Moroccan dude walks up to me and says "Me be Belgium man", well, no, he is not. Not audibly, not visibly, not manner-wise.
Being a permanent resident - GREAT! But even taking the nationality.......

And I never defended discrimination or prosecution for not being pure-blooded. I'm merely saying that someone who claims to be Japanese but neither looks, nor sounds like it, mustn't be too surprised when not taken seriously.

 

[orochi]

Instead of just enjoying Japan, he's going around complaining about racism.

How do you know he doesn't enjoy his life here? And why not complain about racism? What is so bad about pointing out problems, many of them legal issues as well?

is it such a tragedy not to be able to go and sit in a public bath or visit THAT ONE club out of a million in the vicinity?

Yes it is. How would you feel if your children were refused entry to a restaurant because they didn't look German enough?

But if I were to get a Japanese nationality, people would just point and laugh.

Why do you think so? More and more people are getting Japanese nationality every year.

It's way too different in Debito's case and I don't think he should boast with Japanese nationality.

Where is he boasting?

To me, a Japanese person looks like a Japanese person. Like, a visible amount of Japanese blood.

Your perception of Japanese nationality is not the issue.
And as has been mentioned MANY times, there is no legal definition of nationality that includes anything about blood. It is irrelevant. Drop it.

I'm merely saying that someone who claims to be Japanese but neither looks, nor sounds like it, mustn't be too surprised when not taken seriously.

Being surprised is not the issue. We are talking about equal treatment under the law.

 

[Emoni]

I have to say I'm impressed by Orochi's calm and intelligent method of looking at these issues. Especially when faced with the apathetic, emotional, and often misinformed responses he is getting here.

Good show.

 

[pipokun]

The biggest problems we've discussed have been based on the law.

(And you brought the law here...)
警察官職務執行法第二条 警察官は、異常な挙動その他 周囲の事情から合理的に判 断して何らかの犯罪を犯し、若しくは犯そうとしていると疑う に足りる相当な理由のある者又は既に行われた犯 罪について、若しくは犯罪が行われようとしていること に ついて知っていると認められる者を停止させて質問する ことができる。

Again, if Debito believes the cop's actions were irrational, just go to court for compensation. All doors are open. And the camera at the airport may tell who was more rational the cop or someone standing and taking photos at the gate on the special occasion.

 

[Elizabeth]

To me, a Japanese person looks like a Japanese person. Like, a visible amount of Japanese blood. THEN go calling yourself Japanese again. When a Moroccan dude walks up to me and says "Me be Belgium man", well, no, he is not. Not audibly, not visibly, not manner-wise.
Being a permanent resident - GREAT! But even taking the nationality.......
And I never defended discrimination or prosecution for not being pure-blooded. I'm merely saying that someone who claims to be Japanese but neither looks, nor sounds like it, mustn't be too surprised when not taken seriously.

I can't believe you can say something with a straight face that is more racist than the Japanese government itself. Whether Belgium allows immigrants to nationalize is neither here nor there. Just try not to stare too hard at the first sighting of a Caucasian or black face speaking fluent Japanese, OK ?? Or tell a kid that was born and/or raised of Japanese parents outside the country who may speak at best imperfect, accented Japanese that they are a total fake by the blood standards of an idealized, real European.

 

[Otenba]

I never said a Japanese kid raised outside Japan isn't entitled Japanese nationality.
And I'm not being racist. I don't mind foreigners living in another country than that of their nationality. All I'm saying is: before having a nationality branded on your passport, make sure it fits you. Do I speak perfect French? No. Am I a resident in a francophone country? Yes. But will I take its nationality before getting rid of any hints that I might not be as Franco-Belgian as a nationality on a passport would have you think? God forbid - NO.

Again: residency is fine but nationality on paper is pompous in many cases.

And if a black person approaches me and says they're Japanese, well Japanese people look different to me. But that does absolutely not mean I got something against black people, I only got something against people who don't seem the part they try to play. Being fluent in a language changes crap. Roots I tell ya, roots. A "Japanese" with all too visible Nigerian roots who looks and sounds more Nigerian than Japanese, will always be a Nigerian to me.

 

[KirinMan]

I never said a Japanese kid raised outside Japan isn't entitled Japanese nationality.
And I'm not being racist. I don't mind foreigners living in another country than that of their nationality. All I'm saying is: before having a nationality branded on your passport, make sure it fits you. Do I speak perfect French? No. Am I a resident in a francophone country? Yes. But will I take its nationality before getting rid of any hints that I might not be as Franco-Belgian as a nationality on a passport would have you think? God forbid - NO.
Again: residency is fine but nationality on paper is pompous in many cases.
And if a black person approaches me and says they're Japanese, well Japanese people look different to me. But that does absolutely not mean I got something against black people, I only got something against people who don't seem the part they try to play. Being fluent in a language changes crap. Roots I tell ya, roots. A "Japanese" with all too visible Nigerian roots who looks and sounds more Nigerian than Japanese, will always be a Nigerian to me.

Do you realize how you sound here?

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it must be a elephant right?

 

[Otenba]

No, as easy to guess from my post, it'd most probably be a... duck?

 

[KirinMan]

No, as easy to guess from my post, it'd most probably be a... duck?

It may not have been your intent but your sure as heck came across as sounding racist to me.

 

[pipokun]

警察官の衣服引きちぎり逮捕 足利署
足利署は１４日、公務執行妨害の現行犯で、住所不定、ナイジェリア国籍、職業不詳オウコリ・ジュニア・フライデー容疑者（４１）を逮捕した。
調べによると、フライデー容疑者は同日午後３時１５分ごろ、足利市今福町の路上で、同署員２人から職務質問を受けた際、男性巡査長（２７）の防護衣を引きちぎるなどした疑い。
http://www.shimotsuke.co.jp/news/tochigi/local/accident/news/20080714/24663

Tochigi, the police arrested a Nigerian man.
The suspect allegedly torn the cop's uniform when he was stopped and questioned.

A little knowledge of The Art of War makes you hurt. And I believe Sun Tzu would surely get his temper under control, though I don't know how humbly the cops asked the guy like the Debito's case.

 

[Otenba]

It indeed isn't my intention to be racist and as I said, being a permanent resident anywhere you please, is fine. But getting some nationality is, in my eyes, like a certificate to be (in this case) Japanese enough to be part of a nation, and hence I find if boastful and inappropriate in many cases. Living in Japan and keeping your (insert country name here) nationality, is great though.
I won't take Israeli nationality either before learning the language and at least 3 dates of national/Jewish holidays AND serving the army and protecting my country, thereby proving myself worthy of its benefits. My blood is 50% Israeli though and I look the part, and I'm born there, and those things are, to me, partial qualifications. But to my personal standard, it's not enough so I bear with not being officially Israeli just yet. I'm not Israeli enough in my own opinion though I know I could get the nationality any time I asked. But right now, I'm still too un-Israeli. Thing is, Debito will never look Japanese and that is why I will never call him Japanese. I look Israeli, one problem solved

Though it's getting OT and I suggest we spare the thread of any more nationality-discussion.

 

[KirinMan]

It indeed isn't my intention to be racist and as I said, being a permanent resident anywhere you please, is fine. But getting some nationality is, in my eyes, like a certificate to be (in this case) Japanese enough to be part of a nation, and hence I find if boastful and inappropriate in many cases. Living in Japan and keeping your (insert country name here) nationality, is great though.
I won't take Israeli nationality either before learning the language and at least 3 dates of national/Jewish holidays AND serving the army and protecting my country, thereby proving myself worthy of its benefits. My blood is 50% Israeli though and I look the part, and I'm born there, and those things are, to me, partial qualifications. But to my personal standard, it's not enough so I bear with not being officially Israeli just yet. I'm not Israeli enough in my own opinion though I know I could get the nationality any time I asked. But right now, I'm still too un-Israeli. Thing is, Debito will never look Japanese and that is why I will never call him Japanese. I look Israeli, one problem solved
Though it's getting OT and I suggest we spare the thread of any more nationality-discussion.

If you want to spare it you shouldnt have brought it up in the first place, and you shouldnt have continued with replying to it either.

That still comes across as racist, because you are still suggesting that a persons nationality is based upon their looks.

It shouldnt matter what he looks like. I can forgive the police for their ignorance because not everyone in Japan knows who Dave is, yet they also need to be better educated about the changing face of society here.

 

[Otenba]

Society may change face, but a dog will always be a dog, no matter how well he meows. If he goes claiming he's a cat, he'll get rich at the circus though. A Nigerian will never be a Japanese and a Japanese will never be a Nigerian. Japan is a part of ASIA and the ASIAN people have distinct physical features Africans don't have. That is not racist but a fact.

 

[orochi]

All I'm saying is: before having a nationality branded on your passport, make sure it fits you.

This is assessed when you apply for said nationality. If the government of Japan, and the Minister of Justice think that Japanese nationality fits you, then what right does a random person on the Internet like you have to doubt it? What reason do you even have?

Japan is a part of ASIA and the ASIAN people have distinct physical features Africans don't have. That is not racist but a fact.

Physical features have no legal basis when it comes to determining nationality. I have mentioned this many times. Please stop bringing it up unless you have proof of a Japanese law that links nationality to physical appearance. Otherwise it is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[Elizabeth]

Society may change face, but a dog will always be a dog, no matter how well he meows. If he goes claiming he's a cat, he'll get rich at the circus though. A Nigerian will never be a Japanese and a Japanese will never be a Nigerian. Japan is a part of ASIA and the ASIAN people have distinct physical features Africans don't have. That is not racist but a fact.

Having one Japanese parent equals citizenship but obviously at the same time without a guarantee of the genotype normal to a full-blooded Japanese, or even half-Asian. They could come out as beautifully sculpted and athletic as Tiger Woods... (A half-black, one-quarter American Indian, one-quarter white father) mixing with a half-Thai, half-Chinese mother)....

 

[KirinMan]

Having one Japanese parent equals citizenship but obviously at the same time without a guarantee of the genotype normal to a full-blooded Japanese, or even half-Asian. They could come out as beautifully sculpted and athletic as Tiger Woods... (A half-black, one-quarter American Indian, one-quarter white father) mixing with a half-Thai, half-Chinese mother)....

Well said Elizabeth. I have a good friend who happens to have an American father and Japanese mother, he is blond haired, blue eyed and has absolutely no obvious Japanese or Asian features.

Oh and he also speaks zero English too, having been born and raised in Japan and went through the Japanese school system here. He only has Japanese citizenship as well, as his parents got divorced when he was a young child.

I wonder what nationality Otenba would take him for? But since he doesnt look Japanese I guess that disqualifies him from being such.

Otenba I think has much to learn about what the difference between a nationality and race are.

 

[pipokun]

KirinMan, ask your good friend what he would do in the same situation like Debito.

I feel sorry for Debito or other passengers at Chitose Airport, but many would show his/her cooperation with cops in that special occasion.

 

[orochi]

I feel sorry for Debito or other passengers at Chitose Airport, but many would show his/her cooperation with cops in that special occasion.

That doesn't matter. I'm sure there would be a few people that would drop their paints if the police asked them to. That doesn't mean everybody should, though.